[Ragsk747]

Hello,

How is City average more than Highway for Vitara Hybrid.

Also which Variant is Creta IVT? Is it IMT or CVT?

[07CR]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

The Grand Vitara hybrid fares very well on almost every front:

• 0-100 time if 12.82 seconds versus the Seltos Diesel AT’s 12.91 seconds and the Creta IVT’s 13.63 seconds
• Top speed if 180 kph versus the Seltos’s 175 kph and Creta’s 170 kph
• City fuel economy of 23.77 kpl versus 10.31 for the Creta Petrol and 12.9 for the Seltos Diesel - that is almost 130% better than the NA Petrol and nearly double that of the Diesel
• Highway fuel economy of 20.39 kpl versus the Creta IVT’s 13.78 kpl and Seltos Diesel’s 17.8 kpl - 50% better than the NA Petrol and 16% better than the Diesel

What is truly outstanding is the in-city performance of the hybrid.

• 0-60 comes up in 5.37 seconds versus 6.27 seconds in the Creta IVT and 5.53 seconds in the Seltos Diesel
• 20-80 in kickdown takes 7.11 seconds on the Hybrid, versus 7.68 seconds on the Creta IVT and 7.54 seconds in the Seltos Diesel.
• In 40-100 kickdown, both the Petrol IVT and Diesel AT overtake the hybrid - this takes 10.37 seconds in the Hybrid versus 9.67 seconds in the Petrol IVT and 10.04 seconds on the Diesel AT. Not a huge margin but I think the gap will widen post 100kph.

I will take these figures with spoon of salt! Autocar reviews lately have been extremely rigged (favoring the new car mostly), and I no longer believe them.


I mean what does "Drives with confidence" even mean

Not to mention they blatantly avoid to mention the abysmal NVH of the 3 pot motor of the Vitara.

Instead I came across comparo of sorts by Gagan and ICN, and seems the diesels are still the preferable choice be it in city or highway drives (more so when you consider cost of diesel per litre is 10~rs. lesser than cost of petrol.

Diesel still better?

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

In the end Autocar concludes that the Hybrid has become the new Diesel due to the superior fuel economy without the pain of higher NVH of the Diesels.

Originally Posted by ajayc123

In the team-bhp review there was some concern regarding the NHV of the HyRyder 3 pot. Now these guys are referring to the pain of the "higher NHV of diesels". So can we conclude that the HyRyder / Grand Vitara beat the Hyundai/KIA diesel cars on the NHV?

I’ve driven the hybrid a fair bit. As far as NVH goes, as long as you are in typical bumper to bumper city traffic and the electric motor is doing most of the heavy lifting, things as good . I didn’t find the engine firing up for charging the battery at low rpm to be intrusive either.

But. And this is a HUGE but. As soon as speeds pick up and you need to maintain 60+ speeds, the engine has to provide propulsion continuously. Here, it is totally caught out. It gets loud, boomy and is generally unpleasant. Overall noise at 60+ speeds or under quick acceleration is a little worse than even the diesel Honda City, a car which has the crudest and most unrefined diesel engine there is. Additionally, the insulation level of the cabin is typical budget Maruti spec. You hear plenty of the din from outside even with the windows rolled up.

Overall, the NVH package of the Grand Vitara/Hyryder hybrid has a lot of holes in it and is not befitting a 20L Rupee car. Forget Seltos, even ‘lesser’ cars like Nexon, Venue and XUV300 fare better. This is one of my biggest issues with the hybrid, along with the cramped/narrow front seats.

[Sankar]

Watching this video has given me a mild headache, it sounds like a mixer grinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysRRZ7B97kI

Whenever the needle is in PWR the drone is constant and unbearable.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by 07CR

I will take these figures with spoon of salt! Autocar reviews lately have been extremely rigged (favoring the new car mostly), and I no longer believe them.

I agree ACI has become very biased, but this a departure for them to choose something else over the de-facto Creta and Seltos which have been their benchmarks for a few years now.

I mean what does "Drives with confidence" even mean

Even-though, I haven’t driven either the Grand Vitara or HyRyder. But I can say this, Hyundai’s have a very light steering and comfort oriented suspensions that their high speed handling and stability is simply lacking.

I had test-driven the Alcazar a few months back after test-driving the Virtus, the difference in their handling, steering feel and stability had a day-night difference. The Hyundai steering did not have any feel, everything felt very light including the brake and accelerator pedal, not at all confidence inspiring out on the highways/high speeds.

I have seen this in-person with my own car as well, I have driven my Creta (albeit 1st gen with supposedly better build quality than the 2nd gen Creta and 1st gen Seltos) on the Bandra-Worli Sea-Link and the cross-winds affect the car really badly, meanwhile doing the same in my now sold EcoSport felt a lot more confidence inspiring, the cross-wind didn’t even affect the EcoSport, it was one heck of a solid car.

So I think this is what they mean by “drives with confidence” .

This is the reason I use my Creta within the city only unless absolutely necessary.

The light controls of Hyundais are a boon in traffic, negotiating city roads and this is where they excel.

[anshumandun]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

In the end Autocar concludes that the Hybrid has become the new Diesel due to the superior fuel economy without the pain of higher NVH of the Diesels. Hyundai and Kia must be very uncomfortable right now, although they have so many power train alternatives, they do not have a play in the hybrid market.

Exactly my thoughts!

Toyota and Suzuki will beat the Koreans with their hybrid technology. People looking at fuel efficient diesels finally have better options now.

Tata, Mahindra and VW/Skoda will beat the Koreans with their Safety Ratings. After seeing so many advertisements shouting about "5 star" safety rating, the masses have finally started giving importance to the safety aspect (looking at the increasing sales numbers of Nexon after getting 5 star safety rating).

Is this the starting of the fall of the Korean Kings (Creta and Seltos)? I don't know. But one thing is sure, the next generation Creta/Seltos will be designed to get 5 star safety rating. Otherwise the fall is imminent.

[aniketi]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

[*]Highway fuel economy of 20.39 kpl versus the Creta IVT’s 13.78 kpl and Seltos Diesel’s 17.8 kpl - 50% better than the NA Petrol and 16% better than the Diesel [/list]

Why highway figures are so low? Something is wrong. With careful driving, I get 20+ average in my 1.5 Liter petrol Ertiga, hybrid should give more. Honda hybrid makes 30-35 kmpl on highways, then why not this?

Overall Grand Vitara / Hyryder looks a great package as such. Tough times ahead for Hyundai and Kia for sure. They have real competition now after so much wait.

[rahulcmoulee]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Why highway figures are so low? Something is wrong. With careful driving, I get 20+ average in my 1.5 Liter petrol Ertiga, hybrid should give more. Honda hybrid makes 30-35 kmpl on highways, then why not this?

This is normal with Hybrids and EVs. You will get the maximum efficiency at lower speeds owing to the frequent slowing down and braking in the city helps recharge the batteries. On highways, you are likely to maintain a constant speed with minimal braking which doesn't charge up the batteries and activates the Petrol engine to charge it. Plus the additional power requirements at higher speeds causes the engine to hold higher revs further denting effieciency.

[Hickstead]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Why highway figures are so low? Something is wrong. With careful driving, I get 20+ average in my 1.5 Liter petrol Ertiga, hybrid should give more. Honda hybrid makes 30-35 kmpl on highways, then why not this?

Petrol engine in City hybrid is proper 4 pot and more fuel efficient like K15 engine of Suzuki. But the hybrid petrol here is a 3 pot one and not as efficient as former. The figure of 30-35 kmpl in City hybrid was achieved by driving very sedately like not exceeding speeds of 60 kmph on highway, which is not possible every time we hit a highway. In reality, Hybrid highway efficiency should be anywhere between 20-25 kmpl, which is very much equal to diesel's FE.
Only time will decide whether these Japanese twins can take any considerable numbers from Koreans. City hybrid is almost a sales dud. In my view, Hyryder and Grand Vitara will just do a bit better than Honda. Korean NA petrol sales might take a hit. Unless some bad news comes with respect to diesels, Koreans will still rule the market in this segment.

[akg7091]

Strong hybrids have really improved over the last decade. Anyone wondering if it's worth buying the hybrid - go for it with your eyes closed. I have been driving a Civic hybrid since 2008 and it's been great so far. City mileage of ~11kpl ( compared to a manual 2007 civic I had which returned 6-7 ) and highway mileage ~23-25 when driven at 80kph and ~20 at 100kph ( Never took the manual on the highway so can't compare ). Except for the hybrid battery being replaced once under warranty the car has been perfect. Smooth CVT, even quicker than the manual ( when hybrid battery has enough charge thanks to the electric motor ).

I would have gone for the city hybrid / GV hybrid eyes closed had I not bought 3 replacement cars just a year ago for all the 14-15 year old ones I have been forced to replace despite low running ( had to sell a 15 YO alto with just 30k running all thanks to NGT )

[RaghavEvoX]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

The latest Autocar issue has tested the Grand Vitara strong Hybrid

• Top speed if 180 kph versus the Seltos’s 175 kph and Creta’s 170 kph
  

Sir, 2 things to mention.

1. Auto car doesn't mention anything about top speed in their article.
2. In most of the reviews, it says Grand Vitara struggles after 120kmph, so the numbers doesn't look believable.

[84.monsoon]

Originally Posted by amalji

It's just a matter of time before they (Hyundai/Kia) too bring in their hybrids. They will be watching the market response to Hyryder closely for sure.

Toyota has taken 15 years to get to this stage with hybrid technology. It is easier to develop an EV (which is a much simpler design) ground up than to develop a hybrid if the manufacturer has no background in it. Hybrid is a combination of an EV and and ICE car with seamless switching between the two and the ability to also combine the two power sources - so inherently more complex.

I think Hyundai/Kia are sitting ducks about to lose market share in the segment rapidly. We know how much we Indian car buyers dig fuel economy. Diesels took so much market share from the Petrol and that too, so rapidly, between 2010 and 2016 or so - due to the increased fuel economy. The average car buyer won’t mind shelling out a few lakhs more upfront but the “Kitna deta hai” question is paramount and often asked even before the question of what the car costs upfront. It comes from deeply in-born beliefs of 1900s India that our grandparents (and in some cases parents as well) that assets like cars have to used over very long periods of time until they give up, and so, lower running costs are more important, even if one has to pay a bit of premium upfront. The Toyota/Maruti combine knows this very well, as they were milking the Diesel segment the most during the heydays of the early 2010s.

Originally Posted by RaghavEvoX

[/list].

1. Auto car doesn't mention anything about top speed in their article.

You are incorrect my friend. Please see attached:

[RaghavEvoX]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

You are incorrect my friend. Please see attached:

Thanks for clarifying. I only saw their online article not the hard copy.

[smilingakash]

Initial city dash is music for ears. What I am keen to validate is the performance uphill especially with full load.
If Hyryder passes this test then the package becomes sweeter

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by 07CR

Not to mention they blatantly avoid to mention the abysmal NVH of the 3 pot motor of the Vitara.

Abysmal? What is the basis for that? Do you have decibel reading for comparable cars to arrive at this? Another thing that you need to keep in mind with hybrids is that you get used the quietness of EV propulsion so much that anytime ICE engine kicks in, it is going to "sound" which is to say that your expectations are reset.

I upgraded from a RX350 with a creamy V6 to a RX450h with same V6 but with a hybrid powertrain. I got a RX350 as a courtesy car recently when my RX450h went for service and I was astonished to find how "loud" and unrefined it felt. The same way I was astonished how silky smooth RX350 V6 was when I upgraded from a diesel Infiniti Q50 with the Mercedes 2.2l diesel engine. The other day I was sitting in my friend's BMW X2 with the 2.0l Turbo petrol and it almost felt like a diesel!

I am sure you will feel about refinement the same way if you were to drive any ICE car after driving an EV.