[androdev]

As a buyer, you agree to pay premium for the following potential benefits of Hybrid tech:

1. Fuel efficiency
2. Improvement in comfort due to smooth drive and lower NVH
3. Environment friendly

#2 is not that noticeable in A/B/C segments especially Honda because they do a very poor job of NVH. Road and ambient noise far worse than engine noise. #3 is a luxury many can't afford in our market.

What this means is that unlike say Lexus ES where people prioritise #2 and #3, this car will be judged purely based on cost savings due to fuel efficiency. That's bad news for Honda.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by amalji

The bigger point is that using camera instead of Radar doesn't necessarily imply an inferior technology compared to Radar. The reason why I brought in Tesla's plan as an example was just to prove the point that Radar vs Camera is not as simple a comparison as "Radar ADAS is better than camera ADAS". That was the intend of the statement and NOT to say that Honda's ADAS is comparable to Tesla.

Quoting the relevant lines from the article.

Yes, it doesn’t imply an inferior technology. However that is only when you have a setup as advanced as what Tesla or Xpeng or Huawei has. We benchmark these systems so I am well aware of what Tesla does with Camera and what Honda has on offer. So based on that I can clearly state that the specific setup Honda is quite a distance away from being called as a good setup. Shortly we will have this data for Indian offerings too. Yes Honda would claim it is better than their earlier setup but that’s only because they have had such a bad system earlier Chinese manufacturer Xpeng has done a better job compared to Tesla, Mercedes and the rest with a bunch of cameras(13 to be precise) and a very simple radar just for backup. What honda uses is a single wide angle camera and there is a limit to what this setup can achieve.

[dsreek]

Thanks for the great review.

Its very interesting in terms of the technology, as many pointed out hybrid makes more sense now than EV.

Couple of points compared to my 5th Gen City ZX.

- To justify the steep price difference, for me it'll take 10+ years of driving.
- Not sure how Honda is positioning this car - is it primarily for city drives? Long trips may not be practical considering the boot space.
- On ideal conditions (2 persons with normal luggage), I get 18+ kmpl on highways with my ZX petrol. So once again it might be targeted for city drives where my ZX's mileage drops to around 12-13 kmpl.

But still, cheers to Honda for introducing a new model in India.

[sam264_2000]

The pricing makes this car dead on arrival.

In Pune, the on-road price would be approx. 23Lakh, which is about 5.5 lakh more than non-hybrid ZX CVT. Add discounts and negotiations and the difference may touch 5.75. Heck, I got my ZX CVT for 16.85lakh in Oct 2021 with all add-ons (which is 6.15L cheaper than this Hybrid). That's a humongous difference and will take forever to recover, even with best of the FEs for hybrid and rising petrol prices. At this price point, I expect better infotainment, good camera quality, ventilated seats, all wheel disk brakes, wireless charging, electrically adjustable driver seat, sun blinds for rear windows, UV protection windshields and better tyre profile. Am I asking too much? Well, I get all this for at least 1.5 lakh less in Korean SUVs and that too a diesel AT. Cheaper fuel, similar fuel efficiency and more boot space compared to City Hybrid. I will any day opt for these day to day usable features over ADAS which IMO is useless in almost 75% driving conditions in India.

Originally Posted by Palio_2005

I don't think HC gives 15 kpl in city. If I am correct it should be an average 10-11 kpl in a city like Mumbai. Honda owners please comment.

I drive 46km daily in Pune traffic. My ZX CVT has consistently returned 15kmpl, with a light right foot. On highways, it has touched 19.3kmpl driving with 4 adults + AC + full boot + speeds of 95kmph. I am shocked too Here is a screenshot of the monthly fuel mileage from the Honda Connect app:

[autobahnjpr]

Will city hybrid go the Jazz way due to super high pricing? My guess is there would be very few takers for this hybrid because for the sake of higher efficiency, you lose out on the boot space which is critical for outstation family visits and the fun of normal petrol engine for which ivtech is known for. The hybrid car drives by itself and you have no control over how you want to drive except just press the pedal and wait for it to respond.

[niranjanprabhu]

Originally Posted by d3mon

Super review Vidyut!

1. Will Honda honor warranty if battery is allowed do discharge deeply (sticker says drive every 3 months at the minimum). I'm sure they'll have enough monitoring in the car to figure out non usage for a long period of time.

2. Why does engine fire up for quick acceleration when the clutch is disengaged below 80kmph? I'm assuming the tiny 0.7kWH battery can't supply enough current to support the full power draw (80kW) from the traction motor?

Assume the battery was 0.8 kWh (it is closer to this as its actual capacity is 0.78 or the whereabouts), the motor of 80 kW would require an 80 kWh battery to discharge at 1D for an entire hour, operating at its peak performance of 80 kW. Right now the battery is a 100th of that capacity which means if the motor were to work at its peak and the battery has a discharge rate of 1D, then it would be completely discharged in a 100th of an hour or roughly 36 seconds. This motor works ONLY when you are accelerating from 0 kmph at signals etc where the petrol consumption would be very heavy. I believe it also works at lower speeds during cruising. It works at higher speeds only when you are cruising in those speeds and need that quick pickup. So the battery does NOT kick in other use cases. Hope this addresses the question!

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Standard 12V battery is mainly for powering the accessories inside the cabin:

On Toyota Hybrids, the 12V battery handles the accessory load only before the Lithium ion battery comes on. Once the Lithium ion battery comes on, everything related to electric power is handled by the Lithium Ion battery and the 12 V battery is no longer used. Is that the case with Honda as well ?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by amalji

On Toyota Hybrids, the 12V battery handles the accessory load only before the Lithium ion battery comes on. Once the Lithium ion battery comes on, everything related to electric power is handled by the Lithium Ion battery and the 12 V battery is no longer used. Is that the case with Honda as well ?

Toyota uses inferior Ni-Mh batteries and not Li-ion batteries. Ni-Mh also has degradation and needs constant use. Which is why there are so many Camry Hybrids and Prius needing battery pack changes within 6-7 years.

Secondly the Ni-Mh battery pack is upwards of 200V so cannot power the electrical accessory system unless wasting energy. However just like ICE car the 12V standard battery needs to be kept topped up which is what the electric motor and Ni-MH battery pack will do. Power still goes from 12V battery to the ACC.

Do you have details on how the Toyota system works? Cause it doesnt make sense to have a ACC load directly to hybrid battery pack and risk damage to the unit with unknown loads.

[pradheepsr]

Hybrids are definitely here to stay for sure.
IMHO they are the perfect bridging gap between the ICEs and EVs.
Anyone who's contemplating on buying an EV but is worried about the charging infrastructure and poor service backup can boldly opt for an EV in the interim.
Hope many manufacturers take a note of this and make more hybrids across all segments of cars and lets hope for the government to offer subsidies and perks a la the EVs.
Too much of a price difference between an ICE and the hybrid counterpart of the same model is unjustifiable according to me, which is why I think this might not work for Honda.
Same applies to Maruti and Toyota as well. Hope they are doing their groundwork properly and launch hybrids sensibly.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by sam264_2000

I drive 46km daily in Pune traffic. My ZX CVT has consistently returned 15kmpl, with a light right foot. On highways, it has touched 19.3kmpl driving with 4 adults + AC + full boot + speeds of 95kmph. I am shocked too Here is a screenshot of the monthly fuel mileage from the Honda Connect app:

You must be a "saint", those figures are "unbelievable". I have a City VX CVT and have never got figures like that!! 15kmpl urban and 19.3 kmpl highway is diesel territory...

On the side may be Honda would have been better of fitting the City with a CNG kit and 'emasculating' it, like Maruti does instead of this expensive blunder, since they have a diesel may be that should have been enough...

[SeshSrini]

Originally Posted by sam264_2000

The pricing makes this car dead on arrival.

In Pune, the on-road price would be approx. 23Lakh, which is about 5.5 lakh more than non-hybrid ZX CVT. Add discounts and negotiations and the difference may touch 5.75. Heck, I got my ZX CVT for 16.85lakh in Oct 2021 with all add-ons (which is 6.15L cheaper than this Hybrid). That's a humongous difference and will take forever to recover, even with best of the FEs for hybrid and rising petrol prices. At this price point, I expect better infotainment, good camera quality, ventilated seats, all wheel disk brakes, wireless charging, electrically adjustable driver seat, sun blinds for rear windows, UV protection windshields and better tyre profile. Am I asking too much? Well, I get all this for at least 1.5 lakh less in Korean SUVs and that too a diesel AT. Cheaper fuel, similar fuel efficiency and more boot space compared to City Hybrid. I will any day opt for these day to day usable features over ADAS which IMO is useless in almost 75% driving conditions in India.



I drive 46km daily in Pune traffic. My ZX CVT has consistently returned 15kmpl, with a light right foot. On highways, it has touched 19.3kmpl driving with 4 adults + AC + full boot + speeds of 95kmph. I am shocked too Here is a screenshot of the monthly fuel mileage from the Honda Connect app:

May not be correct. Honda app hardly functions many a times with frequent and abrupt stoppages. Not sure how you get this figure. Thumb rule says take 2kms lower than the Mileage shown on the Console. I would recommend the manual checks and then decide. Mine gives me 18- 19KMPL on highways with 75% AC and.speeds of 80KMPH

[sam264_2000]

Originally Posted by SeshSrini

May not be correct. Honda app hardly functions many a times with frequent and abrupt stoppages. Not sure how you get this figure. Thumb rule says take 2kms lower than the Mileage shown on the Console. I would recommend the manual checks and then decide. Mine gives me 18- 19KMPL on highways with 75% AC and.speeds of 80KMPH

It is hard to believe for me too. My MID in fact shows 0.25 to 0.4 kmpl more than the Honda Connect App. So to cross check, I started with manual checks in Feb 2022. Below is the screenshot. Average of numbers on right is 15.2kmpl.

[BlackMambaXX]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

I read the battery pack size is 0.78kwh, which is almost 1/4th on the Ather scooter, why the pack looks so large, also I believe it should not weigh more than 10kg(including if any cooling added).


There is no energy conversion in engine mode, the engine is mechanically connected to the wheels via the generator--> clutch--> Drive motor. The generator and Drive motor rotate freely.

In hybrid mode, the clutch is disengaged, in this mode mechanical energy to electrical and back to mechanical conversion happens, also battery gets charged of the excess energy.


Engine always connected mechanically to generator, Drive motor always connected mechanically to wheels.

Hybrid mode: Generator connected to Drive motor electrically through electric wires.
Engine mode: Generator connected to drive motor mechanically through clutch.

This is the correct explanation of the system. I guess all reviews online got the working wrong or over simplified it.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Chinese manufacturer Xpeng has done a better job compared to Tesla, Mercedes and the rest with a bunch of cameras(13 to be precise) and a very simple radar just for backup.

If I remember correctly XPeng uses Lidar also(1 Lidar, 1 Radar, 13 cameras), at one point I have seen XPeng system behave better at driving than Tesla, not sure with Tesla's latest FSD which uses only 8 cameras.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Toyota uses inferior Ni-Mh batteries and not Li-ion batteries. Ni-Mh also has degradation and needs constant use. Which is why there are so many Camry Hybrids and Prius needing battery pack changes within 6-7 years.

In fact, they use a combination of Ni MH and Lithium ion batteries globally for the same model depending on the variants ( eg:- Camry and RAV4 has it that way ). This started happening from the 4th generation Toyota Hybrids. And it seems, they are moving out of NiMH into Lithium ion completely. We might hopefully see the Lithium ion soon with their next hybrid release in India as well.

And with regards to durability, what I have read of is that

• Compact and light weight - Li Ion trumps NiMH
• Memory effect or the lack of it - Li Ion trumps NiMH
• Fast charging and discharging - Li Ion trumps NiMH
• Durability - NiMH trumps Li Ion

I could be wrong here as I'm learning about hybrids as well.

The reason for 7 year failures of NiMH could be more due to the filters for the battery air intake not maintained properly than about the tech itself. If NiMH was not reliable, Toyota wouldn't be stupid to give it an 8 year battery warranty and an additional 2 years optional warranty.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Secondly the Ni-Mh battery pack is upwards of 200V so cannot power the electrical accessory system unless wasting energy. However just like ICE car the 12V standard battery needs to be kept topped up which is what the electric motor and Ni-MH battery pack will do. Power still goes from 12V battery to the ACC.

There is a DC to DC Voltage converter which steps down the 200V DC to 14V DC. This is then used to charge the 12V battery as there is no conventional alternator on a Hybrid vehicle to charge the 12V battery.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Do you have details on how the Toyota system works? Cause it doesnt make sense to have a ACC load directly to hybrid battery pack and risk damage to the unit with unknown loads.

As per the reference videos I have watched, this is how the hybrid works.

• When you press START, the onboard hybrid computer turns ON ( using the 12V battery )
• The Hybrid computer signals the battery computer ( kept near the Li Ion / Ni MH batteries ) to come ON.
• It does a quick safety check ( Turns the relay On and Off in a split second)
• If all is well, the Li Ion / Ni MH battery relay is switched ON and high voltage circuit comes alive and the power goes to the Inverter.
• The booster which is connected to the inverter can vary the voltage between 200V and 600V DC depending on the demands of the motor.
• It's then converted to AC and supplied to the motors.
• It also has a DC to DC voltage converter which steps down the 200V DC to 14V DC and this is used to charge the 12V battery.
• The inverter also supplies high voltage to the AC compressor.

After seeing your post and doing more research, I'm not 100% sure if this stepped down voltage is also used for powering the accessories or is it taken from the 12V battery. In a reference video by "The Car Care Nut", he mentions that after starting the High Voltage Circuit, you can throw away the 12 V battery and things will still work. But, he is not very specific on where the accessories draws the current from once the high voltage circuitry comes up.

Reference Videos

How Toyota Hybrid System Work Part 1 High Voltage Battery

How Toyota Hybrid System Work Part 2 Inverter with Converter Assembly