[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by amit_snk

Why do Tata needs license manufacturing of fiat engine, why didn't they manufacture land rover 2 litre diesel engine in their plant and use it, they could have supplied that engine to JLR as well, that would have definitely given them some sales numbers of JLR for sure. Really interested to know why didn't they do it

I think Tata Fiat JV makes the engines or Tata purchases it from Fiat power train, anyhow a lot of money is spend for this engine. A search in Boodmo shows ~9L INR for the long block, that is without all the bits attached to the outside of the engine , without cooling, fuel , electrical etc.( harrier engine 140ps).

Imagine the price of a JLR diesel engine, Ingenium series appears to be a more complex engine than Fiat, Tata will lose more money per car with no real benefit to the customer apart from having an LR engine (not sure if that is a desirable trait given LR's reputation).

[pjbiju]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

I know that a lot of BHPiams are passionate about the Safari, and was prepared for the backlash.

Though disappointed, I just couldn't deselect it. Hence, I took another test drive today to avoid being Placebo'd by the Tuscon. Notes from this test drive:

I apologise the poor image quality. I'm not that good with the camera.
...
Conclusion

As I mentioned earlier, Safari is a competent package which is let down by poor material and build quality (A.K.A how well pieces are put together).

To me, the Tucson feels 30% better compared to the Gold variant (~10% difference in price). However, more entry level variants of the Safari make more financial sense. To be honest, the Tucson is from a higher category than the entry models of the Safari - so it is somewhat expected to be superior.

Excellent. Irrespective of if someone is a fanboy or a particular brand/model, people should be willing to accept criticism and shortcomings in a mature manner. That is what every product company does, to look for customer feedback, to improve their products. It is only when the feedback or criticism is very generic (tends to be closer to sweeping statements), that we cannot really make a meaningful inference from it. With the details and examples you have given, now people can relate to that and then compare their own experiences with it. As somebody else said, we always tend to compare one product with another (or several other products) since as consumers that is what will give us a more objective benchmark.

I recently took the test drives of Tata Harrier automatic, Safari manual, Citreon A5 Aircross, XUV 700 diesel automatic, Thar Diesel Manual, Tucson GLS 4WD Diesel Automatic, the new Jeep Compass diesel automatic. Hopefully will create a thread once we decide on a car. One thing about the Harrier and Safari is that we (myself and my son) did not find the steering to be heavy at crawling/parking speeds to be a deal breaker. It is listed at the top of the list of cons in the official review here. It was heavier than some of the other cars we test drove. We could not do a proper highway run (at speeds close to 100 kmph or more) to test the sensitivity of the steering. My son did give this feedback to me that the steering was too sensitive when he was able to take it to speeds closer to 100 kmph for a short distance.

Our hunt for a car is still on. I think we really need to take 2-3 test drives at least, each time focusing on certain areas of the car since trying to focus on everything at once in a single test drive (of 10 to 20 min) is almost impossible. We may not have the right type of roads or may not reach the highway speeds (100 to 120 kmph at least) or may not have enough length of the road to test certain features.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by red_nemesis

This is not the same 2.0 diesel engine. You can clearly see the JTS marking on the engine cover, which is a petrol engine series.

My apologies. I should have looked more closely. This one looks to be the right one

Location of filters on Alfa Romeo 159 2.0 diesel & how to reset oil change message without computer

. On the Safari Manual I found this picture where I have circled in red the fuel filter(in my understanding based on the Alfa 159 filter) which should be in front of the driver footwell. Hence what Ram's sources say might be true about the Harrier twins.

[LivingCars]

Originally Posted by CapKoura

Does anybody know the waiting period for the XZA Plus Adventure variant (7 seater)?

Hi,

I might be in a good position to reply on this as i paid the booking amount on 10th November for Safari Adventure XZA+ 7 Seater and got the VIN number on 12th November. Was a bit lucky there as the dealer had quoted a delivery time of max 4-5 weeks for XZA+ Adventure.

Have also mentioned the same in my earlier post #1501 regarding the Initial driving impressions for first 1000 kms.

[4by4]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

That was achieved with a LHD configuration. All the RHD ones( Harrier, Safari, Compass, Hector) with 2.0 MJD is believed/speculated to have the oil filter intrusion into the cabin during crash and hence won't pass the tests with better rating.

No the NCAP site has now extended 5 star rating for RHD models with same engine. All the more reason why I don't think this theory is convincing

[DeepCarTalk]

Originally Posted by 4by4

No the NCAP site has now extended 5 star rating for RHD models with same engine. All the more reason why I don't think this theory is convincing

You are free to try it out and let us know whether NCAP extending crash results of LHD to RHD is accurate (Hint: It's not even remotely close to accurate) vs industry insiders who revealed industry internal secrets and have been spot on with their scoops.

[dharmapurikar]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

As far as the deal with FCA is concerned as I have mentioned earlier, Tata has to pay for 72000 engines annually come what may. So if we consider an average monthly sale of 3500 units for the Harrier twins combined then FCA is simply milking Tata for 30000 engines per annum without actually providing any engines. This deal is for 10 years so Tata has to somehow come out with more products on the Omega platform so as to stop this milking. But the irony is that even those products will fair poorly in crash tests because of the oil filter intrusion issue. So Tata is really in a bad position right now as far as the Omega platform is concerned. In short both the Harrier and the Safari are not making them any great profits even though their sales figures may indicate otherwise.

I think the deal is for 3 years and total of 70k engines and not 70k engines per year.

https://indianautosblog.com/70k-unit...a-q501-p265969

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by Poitive

This reflects really poorly on Tata's foresight and planning. That they did not foresee of have any business intelligence on their competitors likely launches, and committing to FCA to pick up expensive engines in such large numbers.
.....

If the scoop is correct (not suggesting it is or isn't), it would really lower the respect for Tata Motors as a brand for me.

Originally Posted by dharmapurikar

I think the deal is for 3 years and total of 70k engines and not 70k engines per year.

https://indianautosblog.com/70k-unit...a-q501-p265969

Thanks for highlighting this, @dharmapurikar

So Tata just might not be as incompetent on this front, as one might have thought. 70k for 36 months translates to a bit under 2k units a months (for Harrier+Safari+other potential cars planned with the same engine), which seems a lot more reasonable for Tata Motors to commit to.

A quick search also revealed a similar article already discussed on the forum in 2017.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ruti-tata.html (Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata)

Edit: The issue of them not having foreseen the filter intrusion significantly compromising crash ratings yet remains if the hypothesis/info is correct.

[nainan]

Originally Posted by dharmapurikar

I think the deal is for 3 years and total of 70k engines and not 70k engines per year.

https://indianautosblog.com/70k-unit...a-q501-p265969

Looks like they will be exhausting 70k by year end/early next year as they had 63116 by Sep 2021@ 4k per month in the last 3 months.

Tata Harrier Sales 50k Milestone

Copyright (C) 'RUSH LANE'

This means either Tata has a new agreement with Stellantis(FCA is now Stellantis alongwith PSA) or there is a new generation of the Harrier twins with a new engine round the corner or as Ram's sources say the original order indeed was for 70k engines per year. I am more inclined to 70k per year as I think Tata expected to sell 5-7k Harriers itself per month which translates to 60-70k engines.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4519440 (Tata H5X Concept @ Auto Expo 2018. Named Tata Harrier! EDIT: Launched @ Rs. 12.69 lakhs)

[4by4]

Originally Posted by DeepCarTalk

You are free to try it out and let us know whether NCAP extending crash results of LHD to RHD is accurate (Hint: It's not even remotely close to accurate) vs industry insiders who revealed industry internal secrets and have been spot on with their scoops.

On one hand you pillory Tata for not sending cars to GNCAP test and on the other hand hint that GNCAP results are not reliable. The contradiction of your own stand is evident. You either believe GNCAP or you don't, you cant be selective just to suit your statement.

[Jude300]

I think it is high time that we move away from the GNCAP discussion as its becoming more and more speculative and hypothetical and not adding much value. Until Tata does a test lets leave it there and consider it as not safety rated. Any discussion further on the topic will only be speculative and not factual.

Originally Posted by Rshreyansh

Any idea if the Wireless AA and the Car Play will work on the lower variants with smaller screens?
Thanks

Wireless Android is available only on variants from and above XZ. This is not a feature offered on XT or lower variants and hence the software update will not work. However, you could send in your feedback to Tata motors to ask the feature to be either added to other variants or atleast provide it for a fee. Who knows, it could be something that they could consider.

Originally Posted by LivingCars

Hi All,

We took delivery of our Safari Adventure XZA+ on the 30th of November 2021.
- The infotainment screen restarted on its own a couple of times. The dealer person said it might have been because of a new version update. I am not sure that is the real reason though.
- I found the throttle to be a little hard in the City and Eco mode. Is this normal?
- Inputs on DPF regeneration protocol for the AT Gearbox variants

Congratulations on your new Safari! Wish you tons of happy miles on the new car.

On the infotainment restarting, try resetting the system by holding the mute button and the Radio button together for a few seconds. This might solve; else get the software loaded again / take it to the service centre. This is something I have not come across on my car and hence cant really comment further.

On the throttle response, yes it is fine and it is tuned that way. On the DPF regeneration, i think a 20km highway drive once in a while will help. Try the manual shifts and shifiting at higher RPMs. You may start doing that after the running in period ends i.e. post 2000kms.

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

I know that a lot of BHPiams are passionate about the Safari, and was prepared for the backlash.

Notice the gap in the plastic trim holding the head-liner on the D-Pillar.

The rubber beading on the top right corner of the window doesn't fit flush.

People might call me pedantic, but I can't accept that on a 28L vehicle.

My observation is based on the sound with which the door shuts.

This is my 2018 Creta

The rear door bin isn't robust at all: Ditto for the tray like thing on the door

Here's a shot if the cheap fabric on the rear armrest

Attachment 2240752

Conclusion

As I mentioned earlier, Safari is a competent package which is let down by poor material and build quality (A.K.A how well pieces are put together).

Appreciate the time you have taken to post your observation. However, there are a few things I would like to add.

I agree that there is lot of room for improvement and Tata is yet to get there in terms of the fit and finish and in terms of the quality of some of the plastics they use. This is something that you should be aware of as a buyer as well. Also, it is a known fact that Hyundai is really good with the fit and finish and how well they put things together that you normally dont see anything sore to your eye. So naturally, this becomes a comparision of apples to oranges.

The gaps on the headliner: Did you see something similar on another Safari than the test drive one. I havent seen something like that on my car. Could be someone who did a test drive who tried to flex it as you have tried with the plastics.

Rubber beading: Again, it seems to be spscific to the car that you have driven. I havent seen such a thing in my car.

Build quality of the doors: I would respectfully disagree on this hands down. While the sound that you hear might vary from the Hyundai that you are comparing, I can for sure tell you that the Safari feels far more robust than a Creta. The car has got some good metal on it and that shows up on its weight as well. And again, try the same with another Safari if you can.

Plastics: Again I wouldnt want to compare it with the Tucson that is leagues ahead in terms of the quality here but what I would say is that the flex on the plastics doesnt necessarily mean that they wouldn't last. In general I feel the use of materials on the Safari is not bad and there are a mix of good and bad. If you compare it with say the XUV700 I feel the Safari scores better (except for the nicely intergrated screen on the dashboard). If you say Innova has great quality, you may refer to this post (Toyota Innova Crysta: dashboard & steering wheel develop cracks; dealer says due to heat). However, as mentioned earlier the fit and finish should improve and Tata is getting there are moving in the right direction, thanks to the customer feedback like yours and mine.

Felt on arm rest: Well, this has a reason to be there. If you let leatherette materials to rub against eachother they will only cause damage ot the material. Thus it is purposeful and serves a purpose. So, this shouldnt be considered as an issue.

Lastly, quality expectations are subjective and I respect your decision.

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

Attachment 2240750

Notice the gap in the plastic trim holding the head-liner on the D-Pillar.

Attachment 2240751

The rubber beading on the top right corner of the window doesn't fit flush.

Shame on Tata and shame on people who keep supporting Tata blindly. 27 Lakhs and you cant even make a plastic panel properly and fit it properly, and more importantly nobody cared till the car reached the customers hands. I'm just wondering what is the overall assembly line quality for rest of all the parts in the car and overall quality of how well the car is put together.

Except for the eye catchy designs that they have come up with in their recent lineup, their cars will continue to be a big gamble to own. With this level of quality, I'm almost certain their new age cars also are going to age badly, probably 3years onwards the cars will start falling apart.

Would continue to not recommend Tata cars unless someone has the appetite to drive to their substandard service centers frequently and like going in circles.

[sixthsense]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Shame on Tata and shame on people who keep supporting Tata blindly. 27 Lakhs and you cant even make a plastic panel properly and fit it properly, and more importantly nobody cared till the car reached the customers hands. I'm just wondering what is the overall assembly line quality for rest of all the parts in the car and overall quality of how well the car is put together.

Except for the eye catchy designs that they have come up with in their recent lineup, their cars will continue to be a big gamble to own. With this level of quality, I'm almost certain their new age cars also are going to age badly, probably 3years onwards the cars will start falling apart.

Would continue to not recommend Tata cars unless someone has the appetite to drive to their substandard service centers frequently and like going in circles.

I take this as a rant about a vehicle manufacturer who has only seen a increase on sale multiple times over all rivals and are well on its way to the top. Where other have failed or quit the Indian market, Tata stands its ground and are belting out top notch technology in terms of EV's or features which are first in the class.

Quite a shame to see people just ranting instead of giving some constructive feedback on the forum. It has been quoted many times that people buying Tata know and are vary of the fact that they might have to struggle with the service and face issues with their vehicle. Please move to the JEEP thread and you'll find lawsuits and notices being sent to the dealer over quality (rattling issues). Khusaq already has its run over the fuel pump which created another wave of speculation on the quality testing done by Skoda. MG is a new entrant and people are yet to see long term ownership reviews with an uncertainty over everything. Head over to XUV 700 thread and and the last 3 pages are filled with the door handle issues. Some one pointed out to a thread on Crysta about crakes on the steering wheel and the dashboard and all over the vehicle.

I'm sure you get the point, every brand has its shortcomings and if you in particular doesn't see the value then its really a personal choice. There are various parameters at play and you can't have one size fits all in this market.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Shame on Tata and shame on people who keep supporting Tata blindly.
......
Except for the eye catchy designs that they have come up with in their recent lineup, their cars will continue to be a big gamble to own.
......
Would continue to not recommend Tata cars unless someone has the appetite to drive to their substandard service centers frequently and like going in circles.

The support might not be as blind as it may seem to some. Many knowingly sign the check for a Tata, being well aware what it offers.

In a sense all cars are a gamble with varying degrees of risk on different parameters. Lower risk too comes at the cost of some things - could be price, space, robustness, in-cabin space or other things.

Let us not assume people buying or seriously considering a Tata are shameless or blind. They might have their reasons and different priorities.

Needs, preferences, priorities differ, and let us respect that and share more information which helps fellow mates take informed decisions.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: Recollected my post from a decade ago. Sure there is some change in a decade, but some things and perspectives haven't changed too much.

Link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedan...ml#post2440755 (Choosing a Spacious Diesel Sedan upto 12L)

Extract:

The Tata Story - Some thoughts

I see a lot of people being quite frustrated with Tata vehicles. At times, it happens to me too. More so when they make spacious vehicles (@vb, norules- more about the 'spacious' bit in another post) which suit me but then they have some shortcoming one finds hard to accept.

Tata vehicles usually give that solid-take-anywhere type of feel. The kind you don't get from Japanese and Korean ones. They also are pretty frugal, especially when one considers their interior space and weight. They also usually have the most comfortable interiors (Indigo/Indica, Manza/Vista, Safari, Aria?, Sienna-remember that one?). The finish has improved by a HUGE margin - just enter the Manza Elan without any bias of it being a Tata/desi vehicle. And to feel it more, enter it after entering an Etios! They are also usually cheap to maintain.

Now what it also has is niggles. Most stories are of niggles, not breakdowns. Even the famed German cars break down [ I think I posted this it before too - link ]. We just seemed to be culturally biased towards some stuff. It is the Japs who have reliable performance, followed by the Koreans at some distance. Tata also has inconsistent finish. But I'd anyday live with some bit of the cabin with slightly poorer finish and quality for the seat and cabin comfort.

Tata has a lot of basics right. They need to be more refined for sure.

Now, why don't they do it? I remember this short talk I had with someone who was the proud owner of a Safari and when he had complained to someone from Tata about quality -

Why can't you make better cars, with better finish et all?
Sir, we can, but would you be willing to pay 25-30% over what you pay now? Would you not have bought an Endevour or some other SUV then?

Ah yes! Now imagine Tata cars at a 20-30% higher cost. Even if they had a better finish et all, we would probably not choose them.

Tata has been smart. They have kept costs low, provided the basics right on many counts (Nano, not withstanding), provided a built-for-bad-Indian roads sorta vehicles which are practical. And they have tapped a big section of the market, despite their shortcomings and are doing quite well. I appreciate Tata for this, despite my frustrations.

Heck! Even the biggest manufacturer in the world is trying to emulate them on some counts - look at the Etios!

[Rolling_Stock]

Originally Posted by Jude300

Wireless Android is available only on variants from and above XZ. This is not a feature offered on XT or lower variants and hence the software update will not work.

Can anyone confirm if the Wireless update is limited only to Safari or it is deployed as well for the XZ trims of Harrier ?