[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by vshankarhere

Am just wondering why Maruti did not launch the Brezza with the K12 engine seen in Baleno. It is not that Brezza is a heavy car; it is just a pseudo SUV.

Not really. It is quite heavy for a Maruti Suzuki, probably due to the superior platform compared to the compromised Heartect. Weight figures are as below (Lowest petrol manual variant) -

Brezza - 1,110 kg.

DZire - 860kg.
Baleno - 865 kg.
Ciaz - 1,035 kg.
Ertiga - 1,135 kg.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by d3mon

About the 4 speed TC, I have driven it for some time in the Ciaz and as ridiculous is the total number of gears on offer, it's a very smooth operator for sedate driving. The biggest flaw is really not the number of gears, but that it's completely dumb with no learning algorithm built in.

In a great automatic like the ZF8, if you start driving aggressively, the gearbox delays upshifts and holds gears, while giving you faster downshifts. If you lift off aggressively from the throttle, it holds the gear, knowing that you may want to accelerate again. And it only upshifts when you are back to providing gentle throttle inputs and it knows that you only want to accelerate a little bit.

But in this 4 speed auto, the shift points are hard-coded. What that means is that for a given speed and given throttle input, the gearbox only knows one gear to select, no matter anything else - whether you are driving uphill / downhill, fast, slow or whatever. This is really quite irritating as the transmission upshifts the moment you take your foot off the accelerator even for a second.

I just realised that we have now handed over a lot of driving to our cars themselves without even having an autonomous drive assist in it.

It has become completely normal to expect the gearbox to adjust to us than the other way around - a process / art that we used to call driving

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Y. Now with VW/Skoda shifting to TC it means only one thing: DSG is not ideal for Indian traffic conditions.

I felt it was a bit hesitant to shift down in stop and go traffic. Sure mashing the pedal is a good way to fix this, but the noise of the engine and knowing that its grinding away at an expensive clutch in second gear was a deterrent to any spirited driving with DSG in the city(I avoid half clutch in 1st and 2nd gear as much as possible). TCs just felt like it's made for this sort of stuff, you know it's the fluid that's taking the heat.

[advenk999]

Test drove the Brezza with the TC AT gearbox. Looking at the unexciting engine figures and the ancient 4AT, I presumably wrote off the product before testing it out.

But driving in and about, I was pleasantly surprised.
The driveability of this engine is simply superb. The low end torque and immediate engine response is a boon in the city traffic.
I can compare this to the low end of the 6AT TC on the Ecosport and both these are definitely better than the Hyundai Venue especially in our city traffic conditions.

The gearshifts though smooth, are noticeable especially by the driver.
Didn't have the chance to pace it on the highway, though I did pace it on empty roads on a Sunday, I can say that I was satisfied with the adequate power on tap.

Wish MS had come out with a 6AT like the Ecosport with paddle shifters and better interior quality. The ZXi+ AT SHVS is priced just shy of 25,000/- from the Ecosport Tit+ 6AT which seems more VFM with better figures in terms of power, paddle shifters, nicer interiors and yes, 6 Airbags!
The Brezza doesn't look like a VFM product in the higher trims.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by vshankarhere

May be launching it with the 1.2L would have made a very sweet launch price with the sub 4m sops passed on to the customer. 1.2L isn’t a bad performer either. They could have reserved the 1.5L to the top two variants.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not really. It is quite heavy for a Maruti Suzuki, probably due to the superior platform compared to the compromised Heartect. Weight figures are as below (Lowest petrol manual variant) -

To add to what @Cd mentioned -

1. Even with the current engine, MSIL can reduce the cost if they want to. The car is surely selling at a high margin. So its a calculated decision by MSIL that they don't need a lower price. Perhaps that devalues the brand that has been built over last 3 years around Brezza.
2. In addition to it being a heavy & pretty capable car, do note that it needs to justify its merits as an SUV (pseudo SUV as you said). You simply cannot sell an SUV with an engine that has power and torque figures almost the same as an entry level Tata Tiago. .
3. Even with the 1.5 engine, the car is just about getting the job done for top end power & figure. Anything lower & the car would be a sloth. Compare it with the XUV300, Nexon, Venue TGDI & EcoSport power figures. It would really be left behind on the highway drives with a 1.2 NA engine.
4. Surely MSIL would have loved to do what you are suggesting - had they worked on a cheap turbo charged variant of the engine at the right time. They evidently decided not to do so & now have little room to work in till the diesel comes back.
5. MSIL simply has no need to have the Brezza start at a lower price. There are multiple other cars from the same brand at that lower price spectrum. No point in having an overlap with them. (Like WagonR 1.2, Swift, Baleno, DZire.)

[VJStar]

Excellent Review! Rated 5 stars!

MSIL is certainly looking at the competition and bringing in new features to it's facelift versions. Hope they bring in more VFM features in the Diesel variant.

[pallav167]

What can you expect with a company like Maruti who officially opposed the government's move to bring make safety features mandatory for automobile manufacturers in India.? Maruti said that new mandatory features like ABS, Airbags makes the car costly and this is one of the major reason of slowdown in auto industry. You can understand the mindset of one of the oldest and biggest manufacturer of modern day cars in India.

They have a huge like of tin cans and that too ugly ones:
Estilo, Wagon R, Dzire, Alto, Celerio, Ignis and now new S-presso. No comments on new Brezza, its far behind it's competitors.

[turbo]

Originally Posted by pallav167

What can you expect with a company like Maruti who officially opposed the government's move to bring make safety features mandatory for automobile manufacturers in India.? Maruti said that new mandatory features like ABS, Airbags makes the car costly and this is one of the major reason of slowdown in auto industry. You can understand the mindset of one of the oldest and biggest manufacturer of modern day cars in India.

They have a huge like of tin cans and that too ugly ones:
Estilo, Wagon R, Dzire, Alto, Celerio, Ignis and now new S-presso. No comments on new Brezza, its far behind it's competitors.

I'm not sure what you mean by the opeining line, or what your expectations were. And as for safety, the brezza is a G-NCAP 4 Star rated car.

Related discussion here.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ncap-test.html (Maruti Vitara Brezza scores 4 stars in the Global NCAP test)

[pallav167]

Originally Posted by turbo

I'm not sure what you mean by the opeining like, or what your expectations were. And as for safety, the brezza is a G-NCAP 4 Star rated car.

Related discussion here.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...ncap-test.html (Maruti Vitara Brezza scores 4 stars in the Global NCAP test)

I know Brezza is an exception in Maruti's stable but its still gives far inferior vibes both inside and out of cabin when compared to Ecosport or Venue.

They had a good opportunity to rock this market once again if they could have brought a better engine like Ford's 1.5 dragon and if they would have worked on the premiumness of its interiors. Why does Maruti always compete for the most outdated cars in India and wins it almost every time.

[ank.nsit]

Originally Posted by pallav167

... Why does Maruti always compete for the most outdated cars in India and wins it almost every time.

Because they do not cheat/fleece the customers. They keep their dealers on tight leash. They know the Indian road conditions and they make cars that can withstand those conditions. Their cars would rarely break down in the middle of the road. Their cars do not give regular troubles/niggles to the buyers.

People who value these qualities buy Maruti, and those who don't buy some other brand.

[efgritesh]

Any insights on how new AT gearbox is faring against old AMT gearbox?

I own a Breeza ZDI AMT, although it makes me nervous if I have to take it to steep slopes hair pin bends. Already got transaxel warning light couple of times when driving in drive mode, even the manual mode want very confidence inspiring.

[vishy76]

Originally Posted by ank.nsit

Because they do not cheat/fleece the customers. They keep their dealers on tight leash. They know the Indian road conditions and they make cars that can withstand those conditions. Their cars would rarely break down in the middle of the road. Their cars do not give regular troubles/niggles to the buyers.

People who value these qualities buy Maruti, and those who don't buy some other brand.

I am sorry but I don't think I agree with you at all. Maruti might not cheat customers when it comes to after sales but they surely make up when it comes to selling cars. Of all the cars in their lineup, I see the Brezza as the only car which has even managed to score 4 stars when major competitors have moved on to making 5 star rated cars.

And before you argue that there's a price to pay for safety, the TATA Altroz starting off at close to 7 lakhs OTR scores a perfect 5 in crash tests.

And let's be honest. The 4 speed TC is dated. The official review mentions it and the owners agree too I am sure. It might be better than AMTs, but that doesn't mean we cut it some slack. The same goes for the car as a whole too. The Brezza is old now. It's not a car that was ahead of its time at launch like the Ecosport that still feels relevant in terms of product freshness. I have been in one and the quality of plastics is not befitting of a car at this price point.

As for niggles, I don't know whether the rattles Maruti owners report can qualify as niggles or not, but if something similar happened in a Honda City, it would be. I will let you be the judge here. People who value cars made for India will also buy a Hyundai or a Ford TBH. Most cars these days are engineered to high standards and I frankly have seldom seen them breaking down without reason.

In the end, there are better options than the Brezza. Yes, some people might find it to be a jack of all trades and thus buy it, but I would never buy it because it's built by a manufacturer who otherwise doesn't give two hoots about safety or a manufacturer who makes cars that can withstand Indian conditions.

[Simat]

Originally Posted by ank.nsit

Because they do not cheat/fleece the customers.
People who value these qualities buy Maruti, and those who don't buy some other brand.

Thanks for the laugh, but seems like you forgot to put the sarcasm tag. Incase you were serious, do I have something to tell you! My family has owned Maruti cars for 18 years now. I have seen it all closely, and the only thing maruti improved is their cost-cutting methods. Their cars' overall part and build quality is in shambles. Also, let me break the bubble of the common public misconception, MARUTI CARS ARE NO LONGER CHEAP TO MAINTAIN. Your statement about the general public's criteria and reason to buy maruti cars is correct, and it was the same reason we upgraded from SX4 to ciaz, and to be honest I regret this decision everyday as my family's safety matters to me a lot. And as Vishy mentioned about Tata's safety, even their entry level Tiago/Tigor have 4 star safety rating, let alone 5 star for altroz, which is their premium hatchback. Now tell me yourself where do maruti cars stand in terms of safety(except for Brezza)? And coming to the reliability and "cars made according to indian road conditions" point, you are badly mistaken. They no longer make reliable cars like they used to. My ciaz has faced numerous problems during the 4 years of ownership, and no they were not minor problems. Preferring a brand is one thing, but being blindly biased while ignoring the reality is a very different and dangerous.

[ank.nsit]

Clearing a few things so as not to drag this Off Topic discussion further.

My post is being taken in isolation and the fact that I responded to the OP's questioning of 'Maruti being successful' is being missed.

I am not some die hard Maruti fan, but I tend to keep my mind open about the companies and the products in the market (maybe the only exception is Hyundai). Each company has it's own USP and that is why they still exist in the market or else they would not be able to survive.

I know, understand and acknowledge that Maruti's lack of concern for safety is preposterous and I myself have talked my friends out of buying the new Swift, Dzire, Baleno because of their poor safety aspects.

Originally Posted by vishy76

... Maruti might not cheat customers when it comes to after sales but they surely make up when it comes to selling cars.

Why do you call selling poorly built cars as cheating? Are they duping the public by giving false information? You will find many of the ownership reviews on tbhp mentioning about the poor build and still people choose to buy it.

And before you argue that there's a price to pay for safety, the TATA Altroz starting off at close to 7 lakhs OTR scores a perfect 5 in crash tests.

No arguments at all. Kudos to TATA.

And let's be honest. The 4 speed TC is dated. The official review mentions it and the owners agree too I am sure. It might be better than AMTs, but that doesn't mean we cut it some slack.

That's my whole point - for those who do not want to 'cut it some slack' have other options. But for those who think TC is better than AMT, it is a good choice.

The same goes for the car as a whole too. The Brezza is old now. It's not a car that was ahead of its time at launch like the Ecosport that still feels relevant in terms of product freshness. I have been in one and the quality of plastics is not befitting of a car at this price point.

Yes, that is the majority's opinion. But there would be many who do not feel it this way. I would personally feel bashing something that is quantifiable (like poor crash test scores). Bashing something that is a subjective choice of opinion should be done with an open mind.

... People who value cars made for India will also buy a Hyundai or a Ford TBH. Most cars these days are engineered to high standards and I frankly have seldom seen them breaking down without reason.

Recent case is the Seltos Automatic. And VW's DSG has been a perennial problem.

In the end, there are better options than the Brezza. Yes, some people might find it to be a jack of all trades and thus buy it, but I would never buy it because it's built by a manufacturer who otherwise doesn't give two hoots about safety or a manufacturer who makes cars that can withstand Indian conditions.

None is forcing anyone to buy something one doesn't like.

Originally Posted by Simat

Thanks for the laugh, but seems like you forgot to put the sarcasm tag. Incase you were serious, do I have something to tell you! My family has owned Maruti cars for 18 years now. I have seen it all closely, and the only thing maruti improved is their cost-cutting methods. Their cars' overall part and build quality is in shambles. Also, let me break the bubble of the common public misconception, MARUTI CARS ARE NO LONGER CHEAP TO MAINTAIN.

Which brand do you think does not work on cost-cutting methods?
Also, have you compared the Maruti's maintenance cost with other brands? Are you comparing Maruti's service cost in general over the period of 18 years?

Your statement about the general public's criteria and reason to buy maruti cars is correct,

When you say 'general public' you mean non-tbhpians? Just search ownership reviews and you would find a lot of Marutis. In fact a Baleno's review is on the home page currently.

and it was the same reason we upgraded from SX4 to ciaz, and to be honest I regret this decision everyday as my family's safety matters to me a lot.

Oh, now I get the reason of Maruti bashing.

If safety mattered a lot, then Ciaz was really a poor choice. Wrong choices will most definitely lead to regrets.
Maruti never claimed Ciaz to be a 4* or 5* crash tested product. Then how is Maruti at fault?

In fact none of your Marutis in the last 18 years would have been 'safe' cars. The only change that happened in the last 18 years is that the safety is being emphasized a lot these days, a trend that I hope will become a norm soon.

And as Vishy mentioned about Tata's safety, even their entry level Tiago/Tigor have 4 star safety rating, let alone 5 star for altroz, which is their premium hatchback.

As I said above, kudos to TATA.

Now tell me yourself where do maruti cars stand in terms of safety(except for Brezza)?

Where did I say in my post that Maruti is producing safe cars?

And coming to the reliability and "cars made according to indian road conditions" point, you are badly mistaken. They no longer make reliable cars like they used to. My ciaz has faced numerous problems during the 4 years of ownership, and no they were not minor problems.

All the more reason for your rants. And this is a genuine one.
That is bad for Maruti, if this becomes common in majority of their cars, then Maruti will have no USP whatsoever.

... Preferring a brand is one thing, but being blindly biased while ignoring the reality is a very different and dangerous.

I am sorry - are you talking about yourself or about me here? How in this world can my post be considered as 'blindly biased'. I merely stated the reasons for Maruti being successfully in Indian market.

Though I liked the idea of doing something 'dangerous'.

[pallav167]

Originally Posted by ank.nsit

Clearing a few things so as not to drag this Off Topic discussion further.

Recent case is the Seltos Automatic. And VW's DSG has been a perennial problem.

I am not sure what's wrong with Seltos Automatic? They have three automatics and I guess you are referring to DCT? Let me clear the air, there is nothing wrong with Seltos DCT and if anyone have an iota of knowledge about dual clutch transmissions they must be well aware that DCT do heats up if left in wrong mode during heavy traffic. Same goes with Hyundai Venue DCT as well and Seltos is no different.

Which brand do you think does not work on cost-cutting methods?
Also, have you compared the Maruti's maintenance cost with other brands? Are you comparing Maruti's service cost in general over the period of 18 years?

Maruti's maintenance is no more cheap and if you think some parts of Maruti are still marginally cheaper than it's due the fact that cheap quality parts do costs cheaper.

[Tom Sooraj]

Maruti Vitara Brezza petrol MT variants to get SHVS hybrid system.

Link