[Karthik Chandra]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I hope I have not offended anybody - if yes, that was definitely not intentional.

Absolutely not mate, in fact the comparison you had made between the BR-V, Ertiga and the XUV W6 was interesting

Originally Posted by smartcat

See, I'm interested in CARS but I'm equally interested in NUMBERS. I just try to put these two things together, analyze them and see if they reveal anything. Check out these threads I had created many years ago -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...e-ranking.html

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-reckoner.html

The above exercise seems to be an awful waste of time, but oddly, these two threads directly and indirectly helped me choose my current profession! (I'm a stock market trader)

. I'll check

No offense please

[joe_antony]

Well, well, well, the interiors are Marutish, can't just believe its a Honda. Whats happening here is just Honda could not take the competition, it chickens out one more time. It lost hands down to with Mobilio earlier and now they have come up with this joke. It looks neither a SUV nor a MPV. After Duster's landslide win, everyone understood one thing, the urban SUV does not need a 3rd row, and why on earth Honda worried about a 3rd row, they have mobilio for those who need a 7 seater Honda. This should have been a baby CR-V, I am so disappointed.

[paragsachania]

Usually I am the last one to get into My car is better then yours but since you brought the Ertiga into comparison (If Creta and Duster didn't suffice), I as an owner who has driven the Diesel for 94,000 kms now, I believe I can put across my thoughts too?

Originally Posted by smartcat

3) This means converting the Swift into a 7 seater (Ertiga) has cost Suzuki approximately Rs. 2 Lacs!.

This is really interesting but I really wont be looking into how the Brio and Mobilio are priced then .

Because of this, Ertiga is a flawed 7 seater in the sense that when you fold the 3rd row, the Ertiga becomes an Alto in terms of 2nd row legroom.

Not at all. I am 6'3" myself and I always compare the leg room behind me when I fold the 3rd row with that of my F10D WagonR which had minuscule leg room anyway (If you compare that to K-Series WagonR).

With headrests for the 3rd row, the Leg room in the second row is more than just sufficient for normal adults and incomparable to Alto that you say even with a the liberty of poetic justice that one may have.

The picture below (That I reproduce many times elsewhere) is that of a gentleman who is more than a 6 footer and as you can notice is big on size too.



Leg room with the 3rd row folded is exactly as depicted there with no compromise on 1st row leg room.

My examples are never for 100 kms. I am referring to runs lasting more than 1500 in one direction with family and no they are not under any pressure.

getting into Ertiga 3rd row is more difficult than in BR-V. The cost of proper seats cancels out the cost of bigger engines is the assumption in this analysis

Agreed but this is only when you have passengers who are taller, heftier or senior citizens in which case we can always make them sit in the 2nd row and a buyer when making a decision to pick his choice will always know before hand the nature, size and assortment of travel companions who will be part of the journey in the car that you buy. No compromises there. If we know its going to be fine, we buy else we reject it straightaway.

How many times one will passengers who are all 6 footers?
How many times one will have passengers who are all Sr Citizens?
How many times you will have hefty passengers in all 3 rows?

6) So if you want a proper 7 seater like BR-V with high quality seats, Rs. 2 Lacs is what it costs and that is what you are paying.

My answer when anyone asks for a 7 seater has never been the Ertiga as I always refer to that as 5+2 flexi seater. For 2 Lac Rupee more than the Swift going by your logic, I have managed to drive multiple times to various destinations with all 3 rows in use including Charmadi ghats recently. The 3rd row is not at all a bad place to be but then, where would you stock that luggage? We had a Honda City along where we loaded some luggage and rest was inside that miniscule boot of the Ertiga.

If I use math, I may have easily done trips with all 3 rows in use for at least 7,000 kms in last 2.5 years alone and all of these were Intra-City, I saved almost 50,000 as car rental by not hiring another 3/4 seater if I had picked a 5 seater car. I do such trips for the next 2 years and I save more than 1.5 lacs! But trust me, I would never be looking at such calculations as someone will then say "what about additional wear and tear" because of using the 3rd row - Brake parts will be under pressure, Suspension will be compressed, Mileage will go for toss etc etc.

Cost of ownership is another angle one would want to look at, apart from how sooner or later the normal wear and tear parts give way and Service/Oil change intervals, cost of the parts and etc.

The BRV to me is better than Mobilio and an extension of it in terms of space, Seats and Ground Clearance and this itself ticks most of the boxes for many buyers. How it holds against Creta and Duster, we have already gone through in mutiple threads now.

[Karthik Chandra]

Originally Posted by nd4$pd

Oh I absolutely do not think the Creta offers anything other than higher ground clearance over the elite i20

Are you very sure that Creta offers only higher ground clearance over i20???

Creta offers

# 4 additional airbags
# Bigger engines
# 5 engine/transmission options
# Diesel and petrol AT
# Bigger boot
# SUVish looks
# Bigger tyres

There are no visible part sharing, creta gets an all new dashboard, steering, power window/ORVM control console etc. Even the start/stop button housing is different in Creta and i20.

Originally Posted by nd4$pd

and doesn't justify the premium it commands.

Over 7000 families lap it up every month on an average despite it being overpriced, hence the premium is justified

My post is just to point out that Creta offers much more than the i20 than just ground clearance

[SmartCat]

This article says Honda clocked 9000 BR-V bookings in the first month
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...aunch/52539213

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Usually I am the last one to get into My car is better then yours but since you brought the Ertiga into comparison (If Creta and Duster didn't suffice), I as an owner who has driven the Diesel for 94,000 kms now, I believe I can put across my thoughts too?

Parag, agree 99% with your thoughts. If I had to argue, that would only be nitpicking.

But another way of putting what I meant was - Honda has spent more than Maruti (Rs. 2 Lacs) for Brio to Mobilio conversion because of better 7 seater packaging (tumbling seats in 2nd and 3rd row, reclining 3rd row seat, large boot). But unfortunately, we don't know how much these kind of seats costs over normal "fall flat" seats. I'm taking Suzuki as a benchmark for engineering costs, that's all.

I did evaluate the Ertiga VXi AT seriously. If BRV had not worked out, I would have booked it since that is the only 7 seater option in the 10 to 20 Lacs price (XUV 500 AT and Crysta AT was not launched then) range. I would have upgraded it to ZXi levels (alloys, touchscreen etc) and I would have even sorted out the lack of boot space by fitting a roof box

http://www.ajantain.com/roof_box_-_cargo_box

That is something you can consider to make your Ertiga a complete family tourer.

[nd4$pd]

Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra

Creta offers

# 4 additional airbags
# Bigger engines
# 5 engine/transmission options
# Diesel and petrol AT
# Bigger boot
# SUVish looks
# Bigger tyres

There are no visible part sharing, creta gets an all new dashboard, steering, power window/ORVM control console etc. Even the start/stop button housing is different in Creta and i20.

Sure the Creta offers much more over the Elite i20 (as listed by you). The same way the BR-V offers a lot more over the Brio (as listed by smartcat). In my view neither justifies the premium (~5lacs).

You are also right that my view is not shared by 7000 families purchasing the Creta every month. That still doesn't change my view though

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I wonder if this "Brownfield expansion" has something to do with lower production in recent months.

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bus...7_6566401.html

Not sure. Hopefully the monthly sales thread can provide some insights. The numbers are unusually low and there is no chance City numbers will fall so low suddenly without a production issue.

Originally Posted by smartcat

This article says Honda clocked 9000 BR-V bookings in the first month
http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...aunch/52539213

These figures are not too encouraging. In comparison, Mobilio had 5800 pre-bookings and 20,000 bookings in two months. BRV had 4000 pre-bookings and 9000 bookings in a month, which is a shade less than the Mobilio, which later on went on to become a poor seller for Honda.

First month factory despactches for the Mobilio stood at 5530 units and BRV is 2344. (But I'm suspecting some production issue here).

Sources -
http://www.ibtimes.co.in/honda-mobil...xt-year-609767
http://www.carwale.com/news/honda-mo...-period-13843/
http://www.oncars.in/car-news/honda-...art-soon/10491

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by smartcat

...Ertiga is a flawed 7 seater in the sense that when you fold the 3rd row, the Ertiga becomes an Alto in terms of 2nd row legroom.

I'll say, it's just a perception that Ertiga is very low on legroom.

It's very much an under-rated car when it comes to practical 7-seater MPV. The packaging of this vehicle is superb. You can't get acres of space inside when the car itself is just 4260mm in length, but that length along with the 1690mm width is making it a city-friendly MPV. "Adequate", not "exceptional" is what I'll call Ertiga's space, power and practicality.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

These figures are not too encouraging. In comparison, Mobilio had 5800 pre-bookings and 20,000 bookings in two months. BRV had 4000 pre-bookings and 9000 bookings in a month, which is a shade less than the Mobilio, which later on went on to become a poor seller for Honda.

The circumstances are a bit different with respect to BR-V as against Mobilio. Before Mobilio launch, Ertiga was the only option for families looking a 7 seater. Initial interest in Mobilio is probably because of that - being the 2nd entrant to the market.

BR-V I think is seen as 7 seater by some (like me) and a "compact SUV" by many others. It doesn't have that Mobilio "second mover" advantage. It's actually a 6th entrant in the compact SUV space.

Initially, I thought - with time, as people will see more BR-V's on the road, will be impressed by its stance/looks and this will send more people to the showroom. This is pretty much what happened with Creta - sales picked up steadily over time. I don't think this is likely to happen with BR-V because majority feel it "doesn't look like a SUV".

We'll get an idea about monthly demand for BR-V only 6 months from now, after the initial bookings are cleared.

[-xplora-]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not sure. Hopefully the monthly sales thread can provide some insights. The numbers are unusually low and there is no chance City numbers will fall so low suddenly without a production issue.

First month factory despactches for the Mobilio stood at 5530 units and BRV is 2344. (But I'm suspecting some production issue here).

They are only producing Diesel MT and a few Petrol MT in the first lot, however, more than expected bookings are for AT, hence there is a difference between booking numbers and delivery to dealers numbers. I think they had anticipated a higher demand for diesel vehicles but more and more people are shifting to petrol now.

My dealer is receiving the AT TD vehicle tonight and tomorrow morning I am getting a 1 hour exclusive TD on highway. I come from Linea MJD which is amazing to drive on highways, want to see how much dampening CVT + low torque engine is going to do on my "fun" of driving. Hopefully not much

[aptiwa]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

I'll say, it's just a perception that Ertiga is very low on legroom.

It's very much an under-rated car when it comes to practical 7-seater MPV. The packaging of this vehicle is superb. You can't get acres of space inside when the car itself is just 4260mm in length, but that length along with the 1690mm width is making it a city-friendly MPV. "Adequate", not "exceptional" is what I'll call Ertiga's space, power and practicality.

I believe there is small trick that Maruti plays here. The fore-aft movement of the front seat is lesser than the other cars i've sat in. It automatically ensures that the minimum leg-room someone will have sitting behind someone like me (6"1) in Ertiga is more than, say, the BR-V.

Also, I think many posters are confused between "Quality of interiors" and "Premiumness of interiors". Quality is strictly meeting of specifications. If the sunvisor was specified with lower rigidity than that of a Creta, it still meets the quality requirement, though not the premiumness requirement. The test of quality is whether it lasts as long as the others.

I'm also in the market for a comfortable runabout with the ability to occassionally carry 6 people and an automatic. IMO the Innova is not worth the 20lakhs for GX AT. Between the Ertiga and the BR-V AT models there is a price difference of ~4 lakhs in Mumbai. Key differentiators for me are
1. Better looking to start (Whether it looks like a Mobilio in profile is irrelevant)
2. It's new while the Ertiga is many many years old (in car lifecycle terms)
3. The i-vtec engine and CVT gearbox are in a completely different league
4. Black interiors + Paddle shifters
5. More interior space for someone who is tall

Should these things "cost" 4 lakhs more? Maybe not.
Is there enough value to justify the additional 4 lakhs? Potentially Yes.
Now if only the CVT models actually were in the showroom for me to finally put my money where my mouth is!

[Abhishek_Garg]

Hi Friends,
Being a Mobilio RS owner (i-dtec) for more than a year, all I can say is that comparison with Maruti should not be done. They are very different in all aspects, starting from design, paintwork, metal sheets used, lights, interior material, engines.. etc
Even as a package, the comparison is unfair. I had Swift DDIS for 4 years. Having owned both, I can say that Honda is still ahead by a good length, purely in terms of products.
-Abhishek

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by -xplora-

My dealer is receiving the AT TD vehicle tonight and tomorrow morning I am getting a 1 hour exclusive TD on highway. I come from Linea MJD which is amazing to drive on highways, want to see how much dampening CVT + low torque engine is going to do on my "fun" of driving. Hopefully not much

A petrol engine's low end torque will be well camouflaged by CVT.

1 hour TD? That gives me an idea. Can you simulate a "ghat road" overtaking?

- In D mode, get to something like 40 kmph
- Wait for sometime for the engine RPM to settle down.
- Step on the accelerator like you would when you overtake a truck on ghat road.

Very likely, the engine will spin to 4000 RPM and go GRRRRRR for 1 or 2 seconds, before the car picks up speed.

Now do the same thing but -

- Switch to S mode and get to 40 kmph
- Wait for engine RPM to settle
- "Downshift" using steering paddle, and then step on accelerator.

Let me know if there is a significant difference this way.

If possible, repeat the above test at 60 or 70 kmph, to simulate overtaking on a 2 lane state highway.

[s10]

Originally Posted by smartcat

In 7 seater automatic category (10 to 20 Lacs), your other choices are -

Ertiga VXi AT (4 speed torque convertor)
Lodgy AMT (supposed to be launched in July)
XUV 500 W6 AT (6 speed torque convertor)
Innova Crysta GX AT (6 speed torque convertor)

Somehow I don't like Ertiga on looks.
Instead of Lodgy, I liked Duster AMT. In fact I almost zeroed on that since it has some options for Kid's seating but then BRV got launched. A proper 3rd row seating is anyday better than almost none(3rd row) seating of Duster. Honda brand name was also a point but not so now after looking BRV in person.
City looks miles ahead in terms of interior quality. Here, doors are wafer thin + its all black plastic on inside with no faux wood or any other glossy/ different material inserts looks real cheap.

Did you get any reference number or something which you can validate with Honda to check your booking and delivery date. I feel that company like Honda will definitely be managing things in much better way for projections etc... whereas sales guy is giving a vague picture.

[riteshritesh]

Originally Posted by -xplora-

They are only producing Diesel MT and a few Petrol MT in the first lot, however, more than expected bookings are for AT, hence there is a difference between booking numbers and delivery to dealers numbers. I think they had anticipated a higher demand for diesel vehicles but more and more people are shifting to petrol now.

So my 'hear-say' is right. Diwali is the time, I should keep as a time-frame for my delivery.