[SoumenD]

Yes, the pricing is a bummer but that's from invidual buyer's point of view. Looking at the attention to providing more space it maybe that HONDA is actually eyeing the cab-segment as well. I may be totally wrong but come to think of it:

1. Space advantage over ertiga brings it somewhere in the ball park region of Innova purely in terms of space.

2. A fuel efficiant engine.

3. Usable boot-space even if the three seats are up.

It makes a lot of sense to the cab-market IMO who don't want to spend the extra 2 lakhs on an Innova. Yeah, the individual buyers will look for interior quality and stuff but CAB segment doesnt care about that(Logan/Etios etc are classic examples).

HONDA has already seen the result of over-pricing with Jazz. I dont think they want that to happen again. Amaze and City are bringing them the numbers. Here I guess its trying to target both Ertiga(individual buyer's choice) and Innova(Cab-segment). Yeah they may fail but now it won't hurt it as bad.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by tejas08

My personal opinion, if you want something of a premium brand you have to pay a premium price.

Sure, I would not mind paying a premium. Promise me dear premium brand that you will still ensure the same levels of quality in your products!

due to the simple fact that MSIL still sells a 10-15 year old products almost at the same numbers as those of some of the newly launched premium brand cars and the sheer number of total cars they sell. MSIL makes its profit from Servicing and Spare Parts across the country.

OK,

1. The WagonR has undergone 3 facelifts and now has an entirely different engine since 2010
2. The Swift too has undergone changes in terms of engine ever since it came to India
3. There's no Versa - We have EECO
4. There's no Baleno - We have SX4
5. Unfortunately, there's no M800 after 25 years - There are Alto800 and AltoK10

It may not be Maruti's strategy to refresh each and every model over a regular interval. Why fix it when its not broken?

There are people who Buy WagonR today despite of all the choices available (better too).

Did I see a Suzuki car?

How would that matter? Suzuki has made India their prime market and they may not really need to venture elsewhere if their footprint is stronger in India.

With Mobilio, the biggest plus point is the space luxury it offers over the Ertiga.

Really? What luxury are we talking about here?
-Reclining second row along with sliding seats? - Ertiga Has it
-Rear AC Blower with Cooling Coil - Ertiga Has it
-Better leg space for 3rd row - Mobilio has it but Ertiga's seat is taller to sit

We can always argue why Honda can't give some basic features which actually don't cost anything in today's world.

Remember that the first impression is the last? Look what happened to a once upon a time fantastic product like Jazz. Despite the price cut later it didn't sell. One of my favorite practical cars even today.

And buddy, basic features like Auto-Locking Doors, Seat Belt adjustment (when you have ABS and Airbags), Adjustable head restraints - You think Honda simply ignored it?

[crazyro]

Baffled by the pricing.
The only logical explanation I could think of is this (apart from Honda getting greedy again)
If they had given better interiors at this price City sales would have affected. Same engine, similar interiors, more space and slightly less price
If they had priced Mobilio any lower again it would have affected City and to some extent Amaze. Same engine with more space and less price.
City is Honda's bread and butter model and has a loyal following. Amaze is bringing them good numbers too. Add to this capacity constraint. Why mess with all this

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by crazyro

If they had given better interiors at this price City sales would have affected. Same engine, similar interiors, more space and slightly less price
If they had priced Mobilio any lower again it would have affected City

Pricing the Mobilio between the Ertiga and Innova will work in favour of Honda in the following ways:

1. Mobilio will rake in decent numbers due to the i-DTEC Diesel Engine which is very fuel efficient yet has almost the same power as Innova and with better power to weight ratio and good drivability due to almost zero turbo lag compared to Ertiga. The usable boot space will also work in Mobilio's favour.

2. Mobilio is indeed more premium than an Ertiga and less than an Innova and the same is reflected in the pricing.
With the manufacturing capacity constraint that Honda has at the moment, the higher pricing will bring in lower number of orders which they can comfortably meet, given their production constraints with better profit margin per sale.

3. At the same time, the higher pricing is less likely to cannibalize the sales of the Honda City.
The pricing of Mobilio is almost on par with the comparable Honda City variants, so a potential 'City' sedan customer is less likely to switch to Mobilio.

[RavenAvi]

I have tried to re-look into the Mobilio at least 4-5 times since yesterday after some people felt convinced that the pricing is okay, but I am sorry - none of the stuff in GTO's stupendously detailed review makes me feel that this is a car worth commanding 12L+ on the road (over 13L+ in some states).

Originally Posted by Anand2712

Honda people are proud that paint on their cars remains the same even after 5-6 years while other Indian manufactured vehicles start losing their sheen in a span of 3 years and have to go to 3M shops. I know this because I did a 4 month internship there in the painting department way back in 2009.

It's been 5 years since then, and Honda's outlook + products have gone through a drastic change in the meantime. I own the 2014 City and used to own the 2012 City and I can say this with full certainty - the Golden Brown Metallic shade of my current i-DTEC is a full notch lower than the Alabaster Silver shade of my i-VTEC Corporate.

Other owners have also reported this - neel911 mentions the "Orange Peel" effect on all 2014 Citys in his 30th March post here. Definitely a glaring evidence of cost-cutting, even in the paint finish department!

Quoting:

One thing I noticed on my White SV CVT is that the paint job has lot of 'Orange Peel' effect. I see that more on the sides than on the front bonnet/roof. What 'Orange Peel' means is that you do not get a proper reflection of objects on the sides. More about this in picture below.

Initially I thought, it was to do with having Non Metallic color. However, when I recently visited Dakshin Honda showroom, they had 3 Honda City: Black, Brown and the UTM. All these are metallic colors and they had the same problem.

I than spoke to Mohsin from Ultimate Detailerz where I got cquartz treatment done (more about this coming in my ownership thread), and he mentioned that he had not seen much of 'Orange Peel' effect on earlier generation Honda City, but he has seen these in some of the recent OEM paints in other brands. It's more to do with some sort of cost cutting/not having proper quality check done.

Can other folks confirm this? I'm not sure if this has to do with trying to expedite production and release the vehicles at a faster place or maybe this is part of Honda Cost Cutting

Some related/useful info here: http://www.clublexus.com/forums/auto...-fix-this.html

The below picture shows reflection of a vertical tube light and the window grill above it on the side door. If you see closely, you'll not be able to get a proper reflection of tube light. Notice the grill bars which should have been shows as straight vertical lines but instead are edgy.

Originally Posted by Anand2712

I always thought Mobilio will be priced between the Ertiga and Innova as they want to target both segment of buyers. In fact all news articles and shows I have seen since yesterday have appreciated the pricing and in fact one also went onto say that Toyota might reduce prices for its overpriced Innova while Ertiga has already slashed prices by 85K to make it more appealing.

The Mobilio never was an Innova competitor. If the Honda top brass and the reviewers feel that, then they need a serious reality check. The closest competitor is the Ertiga, no doubt. The Innova is a much more premium offering than the Mobilio.

Originally Posted by Anand2712

Fact: With both their plants working in full swing and Jazz launch also around the corner, Honda will be happy if they are able to sell even 3000 of these units on a monthly basis. As far as I remember, their production capacity is restricted to 320K units for the 2 plants combined for 3 shifts.
City and Amaze having an yearly average of 80K each, Brio around 20K, Mobilio around 35K and Jazz around 35-40K (not sure about exports) they have their hands full and will not be able to do anything else unless they open a new plant.

The capacity right now stands at 2,40,000 cars per annum, which means 20,000 cars per month. Add Amaze + City + Brio + CRV's numbers and you have 16,000 tops, so there's scope for 4000 more. And this is regular production. A 3rd shift will definitely add a few more.

They are in the process of starting a new factory in Gujarat, with an equally high production capacity (details posted by me in the Honda India: The Way Forward thread). Once that is underway, production won't be a problem.

Originally Posted by tejas08

My personal opinion, if you want something of a premium brand you have to pay a premium price. Just to give an example, while buying a PC / Laptop, consider two processor, one from AMD & one from Intel.

The brand may be premium, but the car certainly is NOT.

And remember folks, the top brass at Honda India had announced last year that they were "taking Honda mainstream" in India. And all their recent mainstream products, except the City and the CR-V, haven't been premium. They have been forged keeping the mass market in mind, PERIOD. Wafer-thin doors, thin sheet metal, thin seats, the dash, plastics, fit and finish, the ODO - from the Brio to the Mobilio, all reek of cheapness.

In fact, only the other day one of my colleagues remarked how cheap the interiors of the Brio looked for a car costing 6L+ OTR. We need not go far - just compare the Brio to the Grand i10, the Amaze to the XCent and the Mobilio to the Ertiga/EcoSport - cars at the same price ranges, yet a HUGE difference in quality both inside and out.

Originally Posted by tejas08

In case of MSIL & Honda, it is a clear cut case that MSIL will always make tons of profit more due to the simple fact that MSIL still sells a 10-15 year old products almost at the same numbers as those of some of the newly launched premium brand cars and the sheer number of total cars they sell. MSIL makes its profit from Servicing and Spare Parts across the country.

If Maruti had stuck with 15-year old products till now, they would have gone the Premier Padmini way. In fact, they must be lauded that they are doing their best to stay contemporary and match their more fancy competition step by step. The recent launches from their stable and the upcoming stuff all show Maruti is evolving, and that's the main reason why they sold 1,00,000+ cars in June 2014, at least 3 times more than their nearest competitor, Hyundai, who was in 2nd place.

Originally Posted by tejas08

Honda is a more premium brand and has a global image. In fact, I was in Canada for a couple of weeks before this week and I have seen a huge number of Honda cars even in Canada where the people are more inclined towards Trucks.

And they are milking that brand image quite seriously now. I personally think the reliability factor of these new machines need to be tested before we can proceed further, but I have a feeling that the Hondas from erstwhile times should last longer than these ones which have been hitting the market since last year.

Originally Posted by tejas08

With the current pricing, Honda have actually filled in a void between the Ertiga and Innova in terms of money and in terms of space within the car.

And that is where they have committed their single biggest mistake.

Originally Posted by tejas08

We can always argue why Honda can't give some basic features which actually don't cost anything in today's world. But that gives Honda a chance to make some changes in a year or two's time to some out with an enhanced version or a special edition.

Why not offer them in the first place AND command a premium over other cars? I would gladly pay for it. But integrated headrests on front seats, wafer-thin door panels and sheet metal, and an ODO + dash of a 4L hatch for a 12L car?! No thanks.

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Remember that the first impression is the last? Look what happened to a once upon a time fantastic product like Jazz. Despite the price cut later it didn't sell. One of my favorite practical cars even today.

And buddy, basic features like Auto-Locking Doors, Seat Belt adjustment (when you have ABS and Airbags), Adjustable head restraints - You think Honda simply ignored it?

+1.

I lauded Honda when they launched the 2012 City facelift with an all-new Corporate Edition at 6.99L which had all safety features as the top V MT variant, including dual airbags + ABS. Now, Mobilio is launched at 6.49L and has no airbags, nor ABS. The base diesel at 7.89L has ABS, but still no airbags. Why won't the Ertiga feel a better VFM alternative here?

And, rather than buying the top-end Mobilio diesel, people would rather stick to the base model of the Innova. Besides the assurance of having a proper, premium 7-seater in their stable, they are also assured of much higher resale value. I would always pick a base variant of a premium car than a top variant of a budget car, brand-name notwithstanding.

[KedarB]

Originally Posted by crazyro

Baffled by the pricing.
If they had given better interiors at this price City sales would have affected. Same engine, similar interiors, more space and slightly less price
If they had priced Mobilio any lower again it would have affected City and to some extent Amaze. Same engine with more space and less price.
City is Honda's bread and butter model and has a loyal following. Amaze is bringing them good numbers too. Add to this capacity constraint. Why mess with all this

Originally Posted by for_cars1

At the same time, the higher pricing is less likely to cannibalize the sales of the Honda City.
The pricing of Mobilio is almost on par with the comparable Honda City variants, so a potential 'City' sedan customer is less likely to switch to Mobilio.

I have seen a similar comment a couple of time in this discussion since the prices were announced, and it really confuses me. Why should Honda worry about cannibalizing city sales because of the Mobilio, as long as the customer still stays in the Honda family (read the money is going in the same kitty).

On the contrary, wouldn’t they be happier, as it looks like the Mobilio might have higher profit margins than the city (because of a cheaper platform, basic interiors, features and parts bin compared to the city, and a parts sharing with more number of cars which are selling in higher numbers when added together, compared to the city)? Am I missing something here?

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Sure, I would not mind paying a premium. Promise me dear premium brand that you will still ensure the same levels of quality in your products!

Isn't the Engine Superior than the Ertiga. The Reliability of the i-VTEC engine is way above that of the Ertiga.

Originally Posted by paragsachania

OK,

1. The WagonR has undergone 3 facelifts and now has an entirely different engine since 2010
2. The Swift too has undergone changes in terms of engine ever since it came to India
3. There's no Versa - We have EECO
4. There's no Baleno - We have SX4
5. Unfortunately, there's no M800 after 25 years - There are Alto800 and AltoK10

It may not be Maruti's strategy to refresh each and every model over a regular interval. Why fix it when its not broken?

There are people who Buy WagonR today despite of all the choices available (better too).

I don't think anybody considers a Facelift as a completely new car unless there is actually a performance change from the previous model. Cosmetic changes don't term as being a new car.

As you said, why fix it when its not broken. The customer is buying the car, despite the fact that there are better options available, just because its been selling for ages and that a majority of the customers are ignorant to that fact that there are better options.

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Really? What luxury are we talking about here?
-Reclining second row along with sliding seats? - Ertiga Has it
-Rear AC Blower with Cooling Coil - Ertiga Has it
-Better leg space for 3rd row - Mobilio has it but Ertiga's seat is taller to sit
Remember that the first impression is the last? Look what happened to a once upon a time fantastic product like Jazz. Despite the price cut later it didn't sell. One of my favorite practical cars even today.

And buddy, basic features like Auto-Locking Doors, Seat Belt adjustment (when you have ABS and Airbags), Adjustable head restraints - You think Honda simply ignored it?

Well the space luxury is clearly there between Ertiga and Mobilio. And I am not talking about of the seats can fold and unfold.

-The 2nd Row Space itself is better than Ertiga
-The ingress and egress to the 3rd Row is much better than Ertiga
-Almost 90 Ltrs Extra boot space with all rows up
-Folding the third row does not sacrifice the 2nd Row Space

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

I lauded Honda when they launched the 2012 City facelift with an all-new Corporate Edition at 6.99L which had all safety features as the top V MT variant, including dual airbags + ABS. Now, Mobilio is launched at 6.49L and has no airbags, nor ABS. The base diesel at 7.89L has ABS, but still no airbags. Why won't the Ertiga feel a better VFM alternative here?

And, rather than buying the top-end Mobilio diesel, people would rather stick to the base model of the Innova. Besides the assurance of having a proper, premium 7-seater in their stable, they are also assured of much higher resale value. I would always pick a base variant of a premium car than a top variant of a budget car, brand-name notwithstanding.

Well going by that then Honda in fact did a big mistake with the 4th Gen City itself (which by what I see is selling like crazy).

The 3rd Gen City had the same safety features across all variants (Corporate edition to the Top-end, 2 Airbags & ABS and others)

Hop over to the 4th Gen City, the E & S variant have an Air-Bag missing. The Auto-Door Lock Function is not available even in the E & S Variants of Honda City.

Nobody noticed that when actually discussing the pros and cons of a ~1 Million sedan. Why does one suddenly notice it on the Mobilio, whose E & S variants are actually cheaper than the City.

Its just because there is a competitor in the market who is offering a vehicle with better features at a lower price, that people start noticing all the negatives about the product.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by tejas08

Isn't the Engine Superior than the Ertiga. The Reliability of the i-VTEC engine is way above that of the Ertiga.

Well the space luxury is clearly there between Ertiga and Mobilio. And I am not talking about of the seats can fold and unfold.

-The 2nd Row Space itself is better than Ertiga
-The ingress and egress to the 3rd Row is much better than Ertiga
-Almost 90 Ltrs Extra boot space with all rows up
-Folding the third row does not sacrifice the 2nd Row Space

All valid claims, but none of them can mask all the other disadvantages. Of which the most important is the crappy quality. They have a 10L car with Alto level quality, which is what everybody is complaining about.

Well going by that then Honda in fact did a big mistake with the 4th Gen City itself (which by what I see is selling like crazy).

There are worse crap that gets sold in large numbers. The fact that it sells does not make it any better. In fact, I was a big fan of the previous gen City, and coaxed my brother-in-law to buy the new one. Looks like I trusted the City brand too much.

Nobody noticed that when actually discussing the pros and cons of a ~1 Million sedan. Why does one suddenly notice it on the Mobilio, whose E & S variants are actually cheaper than the City.

Its just because there is a competitor in the market who is offering a vehicle with better features at a lower price, that people start noticing all the negatives about the product.

The City is based on a superior car called Jazz, while the Mobilio is based on the relatively inferior Brio. A stretched Brio cannot command the same level of respect as the City.

[Anand2712]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

The capacity right now stands at 2,40,000 cars per annum, which means 20,000 cars per month. Add Amaze + City + Brio + CRV's numbers and you have 16,000 tops, so there's scope for 4000 more. And this is regular production. A 3rd shift will definitely add a few more.

They are in the process of starting a new factory in Gujarat, with an equally high production capacity (details posted by me in the Honda India: The Way Forward thread). Once that is underway, production won't be a problem.

They are still looking for land for this plant and once they get it, I do not see it becoming functional before 2017/18 which is quite a long way away. Also while you rightly pointed out 240K with regular shifts, 320K is including night shifts which I read somewhere they are going to start soon (Oct/Nov).

Plus Honda is also exporting cars and has plans for about 6000 units this fiscal.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...3000887_1.html

As I said with their pricing strategy, I don't think even if they would have priced it cheaper, they could have sold more than 3K-4K units. And I heard next year they are going to bring in a couple of more cars. So things are looking good and like any business they are looking to make hay while the sun shines and hoping that it will continue to shine.

However I still maintain, just because it is not competing with Innova, it should not complete with Ertiga. This defies logic. It sits between these 2 cars. Taxi operators who buy Innova will be 100% checking out Mobilio also from now on. If Toyota is the undeniable king in India in terms of reliability, Honda too is not far away.

[JLS]

Originally Posted by tejas08

Isn't the Engine Superior than the Ertiga. The Reliability of the i-VTEC engine is way above that of the Ertiga.

----SNIP-----

Sorry, but this is only partially true.
In diesel catagory, Honda iDTEC is new in game, while FIAT Multijet is already crowned 'NATIONAL DIESEL ENGINE' of India - unofficially though

And, realiability, service interval and longitivity of diesel engine is more relevant for Mobilio - Ertiga debate, because:
a) diesel varients outsell petrol ones by huge margin
b) typically diesel vahicles are chosen for usage of many more KMs then their petrol counter parts

Regards,
JLS

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by tejas08

Honda is a more premium brand and has a global image. In fact, I was in Canada for a couple of weeks before this week and I have seen a huge number of Honda cars even in Canada where the people are more inclined towards Trucks.

It is a known fact that Suzuki tanked in America. What isnt justified in your argument is that, along with premium pricing, why aint there premium features, quality and at least a better attention to detail? The Honda city cant be called overpriced going by its overall package. But the Mobilio? Impossible. I went abroad and didnt find Idli Dosa throughout my entire stay, in a European country. It doesn't mean I can regard them as inferior just because I only saw Italian food and bread everywhere. Similarly Maruti in India is like Idli Dosa, accepted here.

Premium brands no doubt have an image here. Here the case is of a People mover. A lot of VFM is expected from such vehicles. Quality is nowhere close to the Honda levels, just like how Etios was to Toyota. When I saw the vehicle today, except for the fact that I liked the ease of getting in and out of the third row, seating inside was horrible. And the space advantage can be really realised only in the top end version. Without sliding second row, I didnt find the preset positions to be so comfortable.

Also if you see the comments of non auto enthusiasts on social sites, even they are able to make out the drawbacks easily.

[9thsphinx]

With the comparatively higher pricing customers will look what value addition does Honda give against immediate competition. Where Honda scores is its engines and reliability. However, for the Mobilio, having those two positives won't help since the interior package and creature comforts at this price is still a let down.

The Mobilio could have been another game changer for Honda if they had tweaked the front a bit to make it sync with the classy rear and the barren Brio inspired interiors had been spruced up a bit to suit a vehicle of this size and price point. The RS variant won't help much either.

Honda, sadly, has lost this battle already.

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by JLS

a) diesel varients outsell petrol ones by huge margin

Yes, Diesel does outsell petrol ones. But the margin has come down drastically over the last two years. If i remember correctly the Diesel to Petrol ratio was near 4:1 sometime back in Januray-2013 as per the Sales figures published on the forums and by July-13 it had consistently come down upto 2.5:1.

With the difference between diesel and petrol fading away, the balance is shifting. In fact, its been at least 6 months wherein none of the car-makers have actually shared the data of the diesel to Petrol Split. WHY? Does anybody know?

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by tejas08

Isn't the Engine Superior than the Ertiga. The Reliability of the i-VTEC engine is way above that of the Ertiga.

Hope we are comparing the iVTEC with K14 and iDTEC with DDiS/Multijet here?
Even then, I have not seen either of these engines suffering issues at a premature stage. DDiS though dated in terms of technology when compared to iDTEC is a frugal one and we have enough testimonials for that.

On iDTEC, I will reserve my comments till someone drives it around for at least a lac kms. I am the last person who would refer a call niggle free by driving just 10,000 kms. Modern engines, you better last till I can drive!

iVTEC is a fantastic Petrol Motor and our extended family owns that and I have taken a lot of trips to Gujarat and Mumbai/Pune. One of the most refined, powerful and at the same time, fuel efficient engines.

As you said, why fix it when its not broken. The customer is buying the car, despite the fact that there are better options available, just because its been selling for ages and that a majority of the customers are ignorant to that fact that there are better options.

And dear friend, those "Majority customers ignorant to better options" are the same who the manufacturer sees as potential buyers. Thanks you said that!

Hop over to the 4th Gen City, the E & S variant have an Air-Bag missing. The Auto-Door Lock Function is not available even in the E & S Variants of Honda City.

You launch a product, target against your main competitor, plonk everything that is either similar or bigger/better to the competitor and then forget some very basic elements. Like you said, the same "Ignorant Customer" will ask for it when he sees it in a new car that has been launched solely to compete with an existing one!

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

I own the 2014 City and used to own the 2012 City and I can say this with full certainty - the Golden Brown Metallic shade of my current i-DTEC is a full notch lower than the Alabaster Silver shade of my i-VTEC Corporate.

+1, In fact, having spent thousands of kms behind the 2010 iVTEC V(MT) City myself, I can vouch that it was one awesome product for the price paid. Hardly I can remember if at all there were any quality issues with that car.

[Sebring]

It's available in Dubai as well at just AED 50,000. Fully loaded.

Originally Posted by Pacifica

Wait, what, Maruti *already* manufactures an AT Ertiga? For gods sake, start selling it in India too! What are they waiting for?