[esma1981]

Originally Posted by sunilg33

So even ford could do something like this as a show of goodwill for the ones who booked early.

I'm pretty sure they are going to include whatever price hike they might be thinking of, in the initial price itself to cash in on all the hype they have created. They are obviously aware that demand is going to supersede supply as of now, also looking at the way Duster has been selling.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by esma1981

I'm pretty sure they are going to include whatever price hike they might be thinking of, in the initial price itself to cash in on all the hype they have created. They are obviously aware that demand is going to supersede supply as of now, also looking at the way Duster has been selling.

On the contrary, I think, Initially they would keep it low to create the impression that it is VFM and gradually increase prices once the tag is set in. Just like Mahindra and Renault did with the XUV and Duster respectively.

Originally Posted by Guna

OT but this is not true. Rigidity for the passenger cabin comes through the spaceframe/super structure of the car body and not from the sheet metal.

So, it is for nothing that some manufacturers (mostly German) use thicker sheet metal than others (mostly Japanese). It is for nothing that even Japanese manufacturers are moving to thicker sheet metal. I guess they should use wallpapers instead. At least we can put a new one every year.

[niks_devil666]

I had sent an email to ford customer care about booking cancellation charges , this was the reply i got -

We wish to inform you that the cancellation charges quoted in case of booking cancellation which is purely under the dealership purview as per the terms & conditions captured by them in their order booking form. We had instructed our dealership to extend the required assistance/clarifications in detail to your kind self in this regard required if any.

@civic-sense : exactly my thoughts on increase in prices after pre-bookings are done !

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

So, it is for nothing that some manufacturers (mostly German) use thicker sheet metal than others (mostly Japanese). It is for nothing that even Japanese manufacturers are moving to thicker sheet metal. I guess they should use wallpapers instead. At least we can put a new one every year.

I believe it could be different priorities. While the Japs specialize in providing refinement, reliability, low cost ownership and practicality, German cars on the other hand are built with different priorities in mind. This has developed, over the years, into a style for the lack of a better word.

The thin sheet metal has more to do with attempting to keep manufacturing costs down. The Duster, make no mistake, is an European car. It's a derivative of a French car if you dig a little deeper. The EcoSport is based on the Fiesta and hence retains that solidity, but the Duster is based on the Logan and the Logan is based on an old-gen Renault Clio.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I believe it could be different priorities. While the Japs specialize in providing refinement, reliability, low cost ownership and practicality, German cars on the other hand are built with different priorities in mind. This has developed, over the years, into a style for the lack of a better word.

The thin sheet metal has more to do with attempting to keep manufacturing costs down. The Duster, make no mistake, is an European car. It's a derivative of a French car if you dig a little deeper. The EcoSport is based on the Fiesta and hence retains that solidity, but the Duster is based on the Logan and the Logan is based on an old-gen Renault Clio.

You can't miss the trend here. Lighter Japs have scored miserable points in crash testing, while the newer (heavier) ones are scoring better points. The trend is towards heavier cars, not lighter ones.

It is not for nothing that Ford puts more steel into the car. After all, steel costs money.

[srishiva]

After driving Vento for 2 years, my take on using heavier materials by Euro car makers could be to damp the non-refinement of the engine and transmission It does add to the user experience of experiencing solidity

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

You can't miss the trend here. Lighter Japs have scored miserable points in crash testing, while the newer (heavier) ones are scoring better points. The trend is towards heavier cars, not lighter ones.

It is not for nothing that Ford puts more steel into the car. After all, steel costs money.

Still - I don't think your earlier comment about the whole car being a crumple zone if it used thin sheet metal is correct. Unless of course, your were intentionally exaggerating.

I'm totally with you and I want thick sheet metal in my car no doubt. And that's why Vista / Punto / Polo any day over the Japanese / Korean contenders. But - the monocoque is what plays the major role in structural integrity & strength rather than the sheet metal panels, that are just welded on.

To give you a simple analogy, watch any Formula-1 crash. Most parts of the body totally disintegrate on even minor impacts. They are the crumple zone. But the central monocoque in which the driver sits, is high strength carbon fiber and withstands any possible impact. The body panels seem like potato chips! But does that mean the whole car is a crumple zone? No definitely not.

What I want to say is, if the monocoque is solidly built & properly designed, thin sheet metal of body panels won't necessarily mean the car will be a crumpled paper ball in case of an impact.

Originally Posted by srishiva

After driving Vento for 2 years, my take on using heavier materials by Euro car makers could be to damp the non-refinement of the engine and transmission It does add to the user experience of experiencing solidity

No I'm sure thats not how it is . If it was to that, they'd definitely find it cheaper to find a 1 time refinement solution to the mechanical parts rather than pouring extra precious steel into the body!
It has multiple facets,historically, the Americans and Europeans have had easy and cheap access to resources, unlike east Asians. The Japanese have always been trying to cut corners towards optimum usage - even more so after the war. The Kie cars for example. So its simply the philosophy and mindset put into design that has resulted into the thin/thick metal sheets.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Still - I don't think your earlier comment about the whole car being a crumple zone if it used thin sheet metal is correct. Unless of course, your were intentionally exaggerating.

I'm totally with you and I want thick sheet metal in my car no doubt. And that's why Vista / Punto / Polo any day over the Japanese / Korean contenders. But - the monocoque is what plays the major role in structural integrity & strength rather than the sheet metal panels, that are just welded on.

..............

What I want to say is, if the monocoque is solidly built & properly designed, thin sheet metal of body panels won't necessarily mean the car will be a crumpled paper ball in case of an impact.

But still you didn't explain the trend towards cars with thicker sheet metal.

I can give in to the argument that the Duster is not one huge crumple zone. It is not for nothing that Duster scored three stars. And I don't hold the view that only sheet metal counts. But the sheet metal also reveals what could be underneath. After all, even with bigger dimensions, Duster weighs lesser than the Ecosport. So for sure there would have been compromises to the shell as well.

And the NCAP results are there for everyone to see.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

But still you didn't explain the trend towards cars with thicker sheet metal.

I can give in to the argument that the Duster is not one huge crumple zone. It is not for nothing that Duster scored three stars. And I don't hold the view that only sheet metal counts. But the sheet metal also reveals what could be underneath. After all, even with bigger dimensions, Duster weighs lesser than the Ecosport. So for sure there would have been compromises to the shell as well.

And the NCAP results are there for everyone to see.

Yes I agree. My argument was only towards the whole car being a crumple zone remark. Elsewhere, I have no objection. I myself save the hassle and follow the old-school "heavier the stronger" rule simply!

Thinner steel is of course an obvious reflection of cost cutting.

[shashank.nk]

Quoting from the Latin NCAP FAQ section

The star ratings in Euro NCAP cannot be directly compared with the star ratings in Latin NCAP. Euro NCAP makes the final star rating from 5 different tests: Frontal off-set, side, pole, whiplash and pedestrian tests. Latin NCAP only performs the frontal off-set crash test to develop the star rating for each car. This is why there is no possible comparison between both star ratings.
Latin NCAP frontal crash test itself is the same as performed by Euro NCAP. So the performance of the car in the frontal crash test can be directly compared between the two. This test does give a very good indication of the safety performance of the car.

Latin NCAP tests only the frontal impact crash to arrive at a star rating, Euro NCAP on the other hand arrives at a final rating based on 5 different tests. Euro NCAP is far more comprehensive when compared to the Latin NCAP but cars which undergo Euro NCAP test also have a LOT more safety equipment unheard of in cars sold in India (driver's knee airbag anyone ? May be S class has it ) Fair to say then both cannot be compared, or does the absence of safety equipment offset the star rating from more comprehensive tests ?

[msmatic]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

So, it is for nothing that some manufacturers (mostly German) use thicker sheet metal than others (mostly Japanese). It is for nothing that even Japanese manufacturers are moving to thicker sheet metal. I guess they should use wallpapers instead. At least we can put a new one every year.

OT, the supposedly tinny sedan - Etios gets a 4 star Latin ncap safety rating which is quite decent.

Quoting from http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...review-20.html

It's the other design elements that matter like how effective the brakes are in preventing a collision, how efficient the body shell is in absorbing impact and transferring only a part to the cabin, how good the impact beams are and how efficient and fast the air bags are.

It is not the thickness of the metal used, but the design which make the vehicle stronger. A sheet with 2 mm may perform better than 3 mm if the earlier one was designed better. A good design will save material cost and reduce the weight of the vehicle, which in-turn will improve the mileage.

Thickness of sheet metal increases weight, and Weight = Inertia which means greater impact on collision and more breaking power is needed. Japanese use low weight, high crumple zones, and high braking power(due to low inertia), to protect the passengers.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by msmatic

OT, the supposedly tinny sedan - Etios gets a 4 star Latin ncap safety rating which is quite decent.

Quoting from http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...review-20.html

It's the other design elements that matter like how effective the brakes are in preventing a collision, how efficient the body shell is in absorbing impact and transferring only a part to the cabin, how good the impact beams are and how efficient and fast the air bags are.

It is not the thickness of the metal used, but the design which make the vehicle stronger. A sheet with 2 mm may perform better than 3 mm if the earlier one was designed better. A good design will save material cost and reduce the weight of the vehicle, which in-turn will improve the mileage.

Thickness of sheet metal increases weight, and Weight = Inertia which means greater impact on collision and more breaking power is needed. Japanese use low weight, high crumple zones, and high braking power(due to low inertia), to protect the passengers.

Still, this doesn't justify the thin metal to those who prefer strong build. I'd pick safety over fuel efficiency in the trade-off always.

And talking about inertia, what of the situation where I'm stationary and an out of control bus hits me?

Surely, the 3mm sheet will perform even better with the better design?
And its not totally about safety either. Most Japanese & Korean hatchbacks have steel so thin that you can temporarily deform it by pressing a finger. A dog climbing on top of an 800 / Alto is capable of creating a water tub there. Not exactly good for day to day use eh? A simple nudge by a bicycle will give a dent. And it sure does.

So its a an equation of cost-profit-safety-fuel efficiency that different auto makers solve with different methods.

Maruti makes a lighter Swift with a very good 4 cylinder K12, VW makes a heavy and strong Polo but cuts a cylinder from the engine!

Almost forgot this was the EcoSport thread!! Sorry mods, no more OT from me here.

[coolboy007]

Guys guys guys, lets stop this thick sheet metal v/s thin sheet metal debate, its going way off topic and this debate is going on from a long time, Punto v/s Swift, Linea v/s City and what not, some prefer the thud of doors while others are satisfied without it, both parties cant win this argument, to each his own.

Not every one judges a car's safety with how solid the body is, am one of them who does so there is no japanese in my garage (scorpio, Linea, Vento ) but i respect the Japanese cars for their reliability, good engines and the cars are a success in Indian markets so they must be clicking some hearts, 5000 people getting a Duster after an year of launch is not funny, it has its plus points and calling it wafer thin etc would touch some nerves with brand wars kicking in.

What i can make out is that the Ecosport is a pretty safe car, has a good build quality and the top variant with 6 airbags is as safe as it can get, wish some one could scoop the pricing , am desperate to book mine but dad wont allow until the pricing is out. Should be a good 3-4 months wait.

[chinmaypillay]

sorry for late entry to the post...jus had a 5 min test drive of the ecosport diesel today. Man, what a car! but i found the steering too lifeless, esp. compared to my figo! the dealer tells me that the 1 ltr petrol version could be costlier than the diesel since it's gonna be imported. Hmmm, not a good strategy IMO, if it proves to be true. very sturdy, driver's car as always from ford. but i would wait a year to get the company to sort out the niggles (if any). excellent features but i didn't like the central space at the rear getting blocked by the tray from the front. hope ford prices it right..

cheers
chinmay

[damager21]

White EcoSport for test drive was spotted by a IAB user at Harpreet Ford. Man this looks awesome!