[anshumandun]

Does anyone know what the role of the oil cooler is in GT TSI? Does it cool the engine oil or is it used to cool the transmission oil? Internet says that it can be used for both.

Asking just out of curiosity. My car's oil cooler's gasket and hose were changed during last service. Car is 8 years old and 1.1L kms.

[abaliga]

Originally Posted by Dead Head

Few cars have held their value as well as the GT TSI has . As most of the owners (self drivers mostly) continue their love affair with this beauty , very few cars are up for sale in the market. This model is much maligned with the threat of sudden huge expense of a DSG failure. However, I dont find too many owners in this forum reporting an actual failure.

Couldn't agree more, there is not a single small car on sale today that has a decent automatic transmission under 12-13 lakhs (I am not including CVTs or AMTs as I hate these types of transmissions!).

Folks who have a decent budget but want a small AT car for city duties have to upgrade to sub 4m crossovers (there too, most have sub par safety ratings or patchy reliability or both), Also, the 1.2 TSI was a gem of an engine, revved freely and offered an unparalleled driving experience for cars below 20 lakhs. Almost all offerings today below 20 lakh are offered with relatively crude 3 cylinder turbo petrol, the 4 cylinder 1.5 TSI offered with VWs/Skodas too don't have great NVH past 3.5K rpm, it gets way too boomy at higher revvs (and it is not a good noise), VW/Skoda 1.2TSI, 1.4TSI, 1.8TSI and 2.0TSI sound sweet at higher rpms in comparison, all these engines are gone except the 2.0 TSI which is now offered only on 40 lakh plus cars.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by anshumandun

Does anyone know what the role of the oil cooler is in GT TSI? Does it cool the engine oil or is it used to cool the transmission oil? Internet says that it can be used for both.

Asking just out of curiosity. My car's oil cooler's gasket and hose were changed during last service. Car is 8 years old and 1.1L kms.

The oil cooler in the 1.2 GT TSI is for the engine oil. The car is not equipped with an auxiliary oil cooler for the transmission.

Originally Posted by abaliga

Also, the 1.2 TSI was a gem of an engine, revved freely and offered an unparalleled driving experience for cars below 20 lakhs. Almost all offerings today below 20 lakh are offered with relatively crude 3 cylinder turbo petrol, the 4 cylinder 1.5 TSI offered with VWs/Skodas too don't have great NVH past 3.5K rpm, it gets way too boomy at higher revvs (and it is not a good noise), VW/Skoda 1.2TSI, 1.4TSI, 1.8TSI and 2.0TSI sound sweet at higher rpms in comparison, all these engines are gone except the 2.0 TSI which is now offered only on 40 lakh plus cars.

The 1.0 TSI’s engine note and vibrations are gruff and seems unrefined thanks to it being a 3-cylinder car. All 3-cylinder engines are inherently unrefined. But that’s where its disadvantage over the 1.2 TSI stops.

In every other conceivable way, the 1.0 TSI is a far superior engine to the 1.2 TSI - including drivability, tractability, power, performance, emissions, tech and architecture. The 1.2 TSI is an old relic of an engine that was rightly discontinued in other markets. It enjoyed a prolonged run in India only because prevailing emission regulations allowed it to continue.

[anshumandun]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The oil cooler in the 1.2 GT TSI is for the engine oil. The car is not equipped with an auxiliary oil cooler for the transmission

Thanks.

In every other conceivable way, the 1.0 TSI is a far superior engine to the 1.2 TSI - including drivability, tractability, power, performance, emissions, tech and architecture.

I can't agree fully to this. I have driven the 1.0 TSI AT (Slavia) as well as 1.0 TSI MT (Taigun). I felt that that the drivability and tractability is not good with the 1.0 especially with MT. The low end torque is just not there. And when the torque comes, it's not smooth. The car seems to leap forward. Whereas the 1.2TSI with DSG is quite smooth and driveable even at low speeds.

In terms of power and performance, I felt that the 1.0 and 1.2 TSI are similar. The 1.0 is more free revving so it feels more sporty and eager but overall performance seems to be similar.

Emissions, tech, architecture: I don't know but the newer 1.0 TSI should be better in all these respects.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by anshumandun

I can't agree fully to this. I have driven the 1.0 TSI AT (Slavia) as well as 1.0 TSI MT (Taigun). I felt that that the drivability and tractability is not good with the 1.0 especially with MT. The low end torque is just not there. And when the torque comes, it's not smooth. The car seems to leap forward. Whereas the 1.2TSI with DSG is quite smooth and driveable even at low speeds.

In terms of power and performance, I felt that the 1.0 and 1.2 TSI are similar. The 1.0 is more free revving so it feels more sporty and eager but overall performance seems to be similar.

Emissions, tech, architecture: I don't know but the newer 1.0 TSI should be better in all these respects.

Quite surprising to hear your observations regarding tractability.

I owned a 1.2 GT TSI from 2015-2021, and had also reviewed the 1.0 TSI MT (Polo). The review is available on the forum.

The manual transmission 1.0 TSI was very quick off the line and under controlled conditions, we were able to achieve speeds well into triple digits from as low as 15 kmph in just 3rd gear, making it the most tractable and driveable car I have driven in the segment.

Performance was not only better in the 1.0 TSI (the acceleration figures establish this conclusively, despite the 1.2 TSI’s transmission advantage being its quick shifting DSG), but sustained as well unlike the 1.2 TSI which drops in performance after a few hard runs.

This is because the 1.2 TSI suffers from an insane amount of heatsoak even on the open road. While data logging my Polo GT TSI, I discovered that the IATs would go all the way up to 70 degrees Celsius, which was often double that of ambient temperatures, resulting in the ECU automatically retarding ignition timing, consequently dropping power to preserve the engine.

Which brings me to the improved tech and architecture of the 1.0 TSI vis a vis the 1.2 TSI. If you own a 1.2 TSI, pop open the bonnet and have a poke around, and you’ll notice that the turbo is mounted in front of the block and behind the radiator, a design that belongs in an engine developed in the 1990s. This is the primary cause of the heatsoak that the engine suffers from. This flaw was corrected in the 1.0 TSI as the engine was clocked 180 degrees and the turbo / exhaust manifold was moved to the back, behind the block where the heat dissipates better and doesn’t consume the engine bay.

While the 1.2 TSI runs out of breath and its power / torque delivery plateaus/drops off at around 4.5k RPM, the 1.0 TSI revs all the way till 6k RPM while making power all the way to the redline. This is purely down to the superior valve train in the 1.0 TSI. Even with 3 cylinders, the 1.0 TSI’s 4-valve DOHC setup means it has more valves in total (12) than the 4-cylinder SOHC 1.2 TSI engine (8 valves in total).

If you poke around under the bonnet a little more, you’d notice the 1980s ignition system in the 1.2 TSI (distributor and leads/coil wires) which honestly has no businesses being in a car that was sold in 2014-2020. The 1.0 TSI thankfully received an updated ignition system with proper coil-packs.

These observations are noticed when one simply opens the bonnet and has a good look around. However, what you don’t see on the surface is that the EA111 1.2 TSI engine is actually an old “cast” engine from the 1990s with a turbo slapped onto it and rushed into production in the EU in 2012 before it was swiftly discontinued in 2015, and replaced by the superior EA211 1.0 and 1.2 TSI engines which benefit from completely forged internals.

A casual hard pull in the 1.2 TSI will not reveal much as the car will seemingly pull hard and ECU wouldn’t retard the ignition timing after just one pull. But try pushing the car hard and continuously over a period of 20 minutes and the chinks in its armour will begin to surface. The performance is not sustained, power drops very quickly. It’s strictly a commuter-spec engine that is happy when cruising around at 2500-3500 RPM. Give it some stick or try tuning it and it will immediately give up.

The 1.0 TSI on the other hand is such a massive leap forward that VW were confident enough to plonk it in the Up! GTI. It even won the engine-of-the-year award in its category!

Perhaps the only redeeming quality of the older Polo GT TSI was its quick shifting 7-speed DSG and the fact that it’s a slightly smoother and inherently balanced 4-cylinder motor.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

A casual hard pull in the 1.2 TSI will not reveal much as the car will seemingly pull hard and ECU wouldn’t retard the ignition timing after just one pull.

Unless on a track or making youtube videos, that's all one needs, isn't it?. Just that one tricky overtake/ situation, and the smoothness there should bring a smile.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

It’s strictly a commuter-spec engine that is happy when cruising around at 2500-3500 RPM.

But it does produce more torque earlier that means it can drive more relaxed with less effort and vibrations than the 1.0.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

fact that it’s a slightly smoother and inherently balanced 4-cylinder motor.

It is!

I'm not saying its the greatest engine. I have a 1.8tsi too and there is no comparison, but a 3 cyl vs a 4cyl is a feel that is hard to let go, 3cyl always feel somewhat disconnected to me, because they are tuned to be artificially revv happy (sometimes to compensate for the lack of low end torque). At legal speed limits and road manners, the 1.2 tsi is absolutely perfect, I don't feel I'm missing anything!

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by SLK

Unless on a track or making Youtube videos, that's all one needs, isn't it?. Just that one tricky overtake/ situation, and the smoothness there should bring a smile.

So here’s the thing - I have never tracked the car and I haven’t made a YouTube video about it either. Never intended to.

The reason for data logging the car was to understand the difference the stage 1 tune was making along with the then newly installed catless downpipe.

While driving the car with the new downpipe, I could feel a noticeable and frankly massive drop in performance, and this was after about 2-3 strong pulls - i.e. real world performance and not track performance.

That is when I discovered the extraordinarily high IATs (which is bad for the engine and performance by the way, even casual but sustained pulls on the highway).

But it does produce more torque earlier that means it can drive more relaxed with less effort and vibrations than the 1.0.

Both cars produce the same peak torque, and while the 1.2 TSI does produce it a little earlier at 1500 RPM as opposed to 1750 RPM in the 1.0 TSI, that difference is honestly quite negligible given how quickly these cars rev lower down the range.

I think the DSG helped matters for the 1.2 TSI, smoothening the power delivery in the midrange considerably.

Honestly, I did not find it to be a deal breaker at all. If anything, the peak torque being spread across the rev range along with climbing power figures at the top (in the 1.0 TSI) makes it such a better car to drive overall.

It is!

I'm not saying it’s the greatest engine. I have a 1.8tsi too and there is no comparison, but a 3 cyl vs a 4cyl is a feel that is hard to let go, 3cyl always feel somewhat disconnected to me, because they are tuned to be artificially revv happy (sometimes to compensate for the lack of low end torque). At legal speed limits and road manners, the 1.2 tsi is absolutely perfect, I don't feel I'm missing anything!

Fair enough! You can’t beat the refinement of a 4-cyl vs 3. I agree. But I do believe that much is being made about this perceived smoothness of the 4-cyl car especially when the benefits of the 1.0 TSI far outweigh this minor drawback.

Also, I noticed that the general harshness, vibrations and poor refinement were negated by simply filling higher octane XP95. It’s incredible what better quality fuel does for this engine. Apply a basic flash tune and even that lack of low-end torque will no longer be an issue.

Look, I should be the first person to come running to the defence of the 1.2 TSI, having owned and enjoyed it thoroughly for over 6 years. It was no doubt a great car when it was launched, but there is simply no getting round the woefully outdated engine.

[cedricsg]

I have a sparingly used Bilstein B6 (6 months and 800 kms) that I installed in my Polo, that’s available. Please DM me if interested.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

That is when I discovered the extraordinarily high IATs (which is bad for the engine and performance by the way, even casual but sustained pulls on the highway).

I can agree with you on this one, there is a clear difference in the way this car drives in Delhi peak summers (48C ambient!) vs when the weather cools down a bit.

[PrisonMike]

The technical knowledge at my regular ASC is a joke!

I had to take my car for repairs after the 3rd rat related damage incident in a month! Those disgusting buggers managed to chew up the coolant sensor wires, along with the temp sensor and a few others. This was a 1 day job, tops!.

I get an update in the evening saying that the wires have been fixed, but now after the technician had taken it for a test drive, the car refused to shift up. And it was led to believe that the throttle body was somehow damaged, (which wasn't the case at all, because I had driven the car down to the ASC just that morning and it performed perfectly fine), and I was told that I had to cough up 50k for a new throttle body.

I was in a absolute fit of rage, because there was absolutely no way that my car could have had any such issues, since I barely ever trash it around, and have only gone full throttle a hand full of times. After reaching the ASC and speaking to my SA, we later made our way to the service section, where I had thorough debrief with the test driver and the technician who work on the repairs, I found out that the test driver accidently pressed the paddle shifter, which holds on to a gear like it would in the triptronic mode.
During my turn to take over the test drive, I recreated the situation and asked if this is what had happened to him, and he confirmed it to be the case, after which I had to explain to him how the god damn paddle shifters work in the car.

I am so glad that I know my car almost inside out and was able to somehow back engineer the issue. I can't begin to imagine the number of people who must have gotten such misleading, faulty diagnosis and had to spend absolutely unwarranted amounts of money for something that was never a problem in the first place. Absolutely shocking to see the lack of technical knowledge apart from what's written in the books.

On a brighter note, I saw this absolutely pristine GTI that was in for it's service. Spent a good part of 10-15 minutes just ogling at it while waiting for my SA to arrive. Apparently, they had 2 of them in for servicing, but I couldn't locate the other one.

[anshumandun]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Quite surprising to hear your observations regarding tractability.

Firstly, thanks for sharing all this knowledge on the 1.0 TSI v/s the 1.2 TSI. This definitely makes the 1.0 TSI a more respectful engine in my view now.

However, my observations are just as a regular user of these engines in the city and highways. I never felt that the 1.2 TSI is a strictly commuter class engine compared to the 1.0 TSI. I also do not have the knowledge of looking around the hood and knowing if the technology is old or now.

I have thoroughly enjoyed driving the 1.2 TSI as well as the 1.0TSI on the highways. The 1.0 TSI definitely feels more sporty and revv happy which I loved. But with manual transmission, if you have to slow down to go over a speed hump, the lag is just too much in 2nd gear. With AT, the lag is masked well (by trying to stay in higher revs maybe?) which makes the car leap forward. Again, these are just regular driving experiences from someone with little technical knowledge.

I think I should be just thankful that I still love the 1.2TSI inspite of it being such an archaic engine as you mentioned. As they say, the best car is the car in your garage

Originally Posted by PrisonMike

During my turn to take over the test drive, I recreated the situation and asked if this is what had happened to him, and he confirmed it to be the case, after which I had to explain to him how the god damn paddle shifters work in the car.

So they wanted to change the throttle body because they didn't know how the paddle shifters work?? God Bless VW in India

[PrisonMike]

Originally Posted by anshumandun

So they wanted to change the throttle body because they didn't know how the paddle shifters work?? God Bless VW in India

Exactly, I was shocked to hear the sheer ignorance in the tone of their voice. They didn't even know that the Virtus and Taigun come with paddle shifters too. It was unbelievable.

[Intrnl_Cmbstn]

Originally Posted by 1.2TSI7DSG

Since this one is used by the Mom, I am assuming it will be much lower run than mine.

Yeah, 59,000km

Originally Posted by PrisonMike

The Kurla ASC is Autobahn if I'm not mistaken?

Regardless of where you go, make sure you ask them to check for fault codes, suspension wear and tear, struts, strutmounts, and steering rack health.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Hoping you can go ahead with this car and that it all works out well . Sure, I'm encouraging you, but not without recognising that there is an element of risk.

Yeah it is now in Vidyavihar. I got the car checked there and these are the two major issued they reported:

crank oil seal leakage (needs to be replaced - Rs. 25,000)

Bulkhead damage (needs to be replaced - either Rs. 6,500 or 22,500 - will know once it is opened)

Apart from this there were some minor things like fuel lid actuator (fuel lid opens even when the car is locked), power window lubrication required, boot strut replacement required and some issues with oil sump cylinder and timing cover gasket.

Unfortunately I did not get the time to personally go there and take a look. However I am going to show the car to an acquaintance who owns a used car dealership and has agreed to take a look at these things.

Any comments, especially on the crank oil seal and bulkhead damage? Are these major red flags, indicating something worse?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Hmmm... It's quite a big bill to start off with. But you are probably still getting an overall good deal.

Bulkhead damage? That's curious. How would that happen? Accident damage? Implications? I can't comment on the other mechanical details: I'm not at all qualified to do so.

Hope all will be sorted.

[PrisonMike]

Originally Posted by Intrnl_Cmbstn

Yeah, 59,000km
Any comments, especially on the crank oil seal and bulkhead damage? Are these major red flags, indicating something worse?

I would think also take it to a local mechanic for a second opinion, preferably someplace that works on VAG cars like CS4 Performance or Mates and Mods. If they come up with the same diagnosis, the bill would be half, or less than that considering the ASC charge a 300% mark up on components.