[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The Figo does not have the same speedo as the Fiesta and it has never been a problem for me in the Figo.

Depends on the driver's height. I'm 5'8" and it does cut right across the speedo. I will post a photo taken from the driving seat next time to make you understand what I mean.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The horn is not at all hard for me. Infact I press it with tip of my thumb.

Ok, I'll explain what happened. My uncle told me that unlike in the Liva he cannot press the horn anywhere except the outer most edges. I told that is highly unlikely and tried it out myself. It was possible, but really hard to do it on any other position. This is the position we normally use to horn even while steering the vehicle. Very handy to use the forearms while steering. This has worked for me on all Marutis and the Etios. But, with Fiesta, it was hard work.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Indicator and headlight high/low beam has not been a problem for me for the last 3 years. Never have I accidentally turned on the indicators.

I drove it once to and from Munnar and I had atleast 3 instances where the indicator would turn on while dimming the headlamps.
And yeah, I've driven cars for 14 years prior to trying out the Fiesta. This was a first time experience for me and felt really irritating.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Indicator button on the left is not a negative at all. Infact I prefer it that way compared to my Altis that has on the right. There are 2 ways to this and Ford, VW, Skoda, Mercedes, BMW, Audi prefer it on the left.

And besides you should not need to use the indicators when turning. The use of indicators is to signal before a turn.

There is a separate thread on this already on team-bhp. Please refer - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-steering.html

Quoting relevant advantages of right hand side indicator knobs on RHD cars.

Originally Posted by longhorn

I don't agree with that. On a RHD car it should be on the right and vice versa for an LHD car. Why ? We tend to use the headlight/indicator combination switch much more than the wipers. Since our left hand would be busy operating the gear shift, it would be prudent to provide headlight/indicator combination switch on the right hand side both for ease of use as well as for safety.

Originally Posted by pranava999

Prefer it on the RHS. The lef hand should be dedicated to changing the gears

Originally Posted by longhorn

This is a no brainer. Ideally on an RHD car, the controls for turn indicators and headlights should be on the right hand side. Manufacturers have been providing it the other way round in India just to cut costs. In developed countries, I don't think the vehicle will be passing the homoglation test if have it like this. Here they are just exploiting the loop holes in the system.

Originally Posted by RajaTaurus

Simple logic as everyone said, LHDs - Left side and RHDs - right side.

I was driving LHDs for more than 15 years and when I moved to India for good, found it a bit difficult to adjust the change (which applies also the LHD to RHD shift as well, but that came a bit too easier than I imagined).
First few weeks, I used to turn on wipers to turn left/right or push the flasher up and see bemused why the wipers weren't working. Later, I became used to it.

Besides, I see our company drivers who alternate between Innovas and Fiestas (which still has the lights switch on the left side) and they find it difficult and irritating on the Fiestas, that they have to lift their hand from the gear to switch on the indicators.

The logic seems to be that the assemblies are produced for LHDs and they install on regardless of LHD and RHD in these cars.

Could you please give me a single reason ( ergonomic wise ) why the indicator knob on left side is better than the one on right side ? Having driven many cars with the left knobs, I couldn't find one other than the disadvantages. So, I'm curious.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

All the points you mentioned are not at all negatives but minor differences between cars. Just because the Etios Liva does it one way and other cars do it in another it does not really make it a negative.

I would recommend that you read through the points once again. End of the day, I was tired like hell after driving to and from Munnar. Switch to Etios, and it felt like cool breeze.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Seat height adjust is the only thing I agree on. The Figo has a poor adjustment.

Good.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I was saying in the segment and not just between 2 cars. FGT is there in Figo and Swift but Swift has a DOHC engine 4 valve per cylinder engine. The Etios is pretty much the oldest technology similar to the Figo so Toyota is not doing anything ground breaking.

When is the last time Toyota did something groundbreaking in world market ? I don't remember. But, still they sell the most number of cars in the world. It's not because of their funky designs, nor the bleeding edge technology. But, because of time tested process iterations that they do. The end result is an ultra reliable cheap to maintain ergonomic vehicle.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I don't really care if the injectors are made of piezo electric or some exotic material. In the end how the car drives is what matters to me.

Durability of the injectors doesn't count for you ?
Progressive acceleration capabilities with the aid of minute fuel controlling capability of a piezo electric injector doesn't matter to you ?

Originally Posted by Vid6639

They might have given all that you mentioned but does it translate to sales numbers?

No, it doesn't. I still believe Baleno is the best designed car by Maruti. It was a reviewer's delight as well. Did it churn out sales numbers ? No, in India, the requirements are different. Toyota had the option to compromise on their fundamentals and durability standards and bring out a cheap car with fully loaded gizmos. I'm glad, they haven't done that.

One blunder they did was to not do an eye wash by giving good colour combination and a better looking speedo. It did have a huge impact.
Second blunder was the NVH control. This means so much to Indian customers who are used to the NVH control in a Maruti and Hyundai cheap car.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

This is a biased comparison. Mind you the Fiesta classic is a much older model although based on the Fiesta. It was never meant to be in the C1 segment.

End of the day, Toyota's flop products ( according to you ) account for 30% of the sales, and the company is still making profit.
With Ford, their best selling products account for 85% of the sales, but still are unable to bring profit. So, while the Ford Figo is excellent VFM, I'm not sure the pricing by Ford is a sustainable business model.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Instead of comparing the combined numbers let's just compare the Figo vs Liva numbers which is 1698 vs 3804. The discussion was on these 2 products and not on the sedan. I have already acknowledged that the sedan is decently speced but priced on higher side.

Etios should be compared with Dzire, Sunny and even Rapid.

How can it be compared with Dzire which has a boot space of 300 l and comes under the 4m bracket ?
If Etios can be compared with Sunny, what is preventing it from comparing against Fiesta? Fiesta is after all a sedan which is the big brother of Figo. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

In my case I felt the Liva was extremely poor at speeds in terms of stability, the steering felt very light with zero feedback.

Quoting GTO's words.

The Liva has good dynamic balance, and there is no sudden understeer or oversteer coming in. Body roll is well controlled too, thanks to the low + wide stance of the car. Straight line stability is satisfactory, and the Liva is at home cruising between 100 – 130 kph

Which of the reviewers on team-bhp should I trust now ?

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The gearbox did not like quick gear changes and it was a pain sitting inside with the diesel clatter on the highway.

Again quoting GTO's words on Figo gear shifts.

The gearshift has reasonably short throws and the shift action is positive. The unit is a sure-slotting one and you won’t choose the wrong gear erroneously. Note that it isn't an ultra-slick Japanese box and does require a little effort.

This is my feel of it. The throws are longer than a Liva. It is less precise than a Liva as well. If you find it otherwise, I find it a bit amusing.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The new one might have lesser noise but the highway stability, steering feel, handling still has a long way to go.

The positive of the steering feel is the ease of drive. But ofcourse it doesn't have the feedback like in the case of a hydraulic steering. End of the day, it's effortless for me to drive a Liva over long distances. I use the car for travelling and ( yes, I do good speeds of 120 to 160 ). But, at the same time, I do not use the car for racing purpose. Within the purpose I use the car for, it feels perfectly stable.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

So why did Toyota bring to India a cheaper stripped down car? If you want volume comparison lets compare the Swift sales as well in other countries. Oh wait we can compare swift but there is no Liva in other countries cause it was only for 3rd world countries.

Ofcourse, it's for 3rd world countries. On other countries, thanks to better economic position, and more scientific taxation, Toyota doesn't need a cheaper variant. Their more expensive models are more than enough to churn out good sales numbers.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Figo and Fiesta Classic are nothing but UK variants of the Fiesta. Pretty much the same package as UK just facelifted. They are a generation old but are still the same vehicles.

So ?

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The single wiper feature has been openly advertised by Toyota as a cost saving feature and it is very assuming that you are actually saying it is an added feature.

I never mentioned it as an added feature. I told, it's just a different design and has its own advantages. And could you please provide me any link where Toyota advertises the dual arm mono wiper as a cost cutting measure ? I've never seen one myself.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The plastics on my old Maruti 800 also never had an issue in the 8 years I own it. I guess your trying to say that the Etios feels similar.

Please be specific. Let me know one thing you felt missing on the plastics other than the looks.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

At the end of the day, one may argue that the Etios is better than the Dzire and the Liva is better than the Swift. But Maruti is the one laughing all the way to the bank and Toyota is the one who had to go back to the drawing board to fix some glaring omissions in their cars.

As I mentioned, sales figures doesn't necessarily reflect how good a car is. This is the first time, that Toyota has entered the cost conscious segment in India. It's an already crowded segment. They will surely be learning from the Etios, and should make the corrections on Dear Qin. But, as a car, I would thank Toyota for the Etios design because it combines many advantages of multiple brands which never used to co-exist together earlier. And I don't care about the gizmos. I care more about the car.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

They heavily underestimated the indian public and thought that they could shove down basic, stripped down built to a cost product and get away with it by assuming that the Toyota brand name would be enough.

They heavily mistook our expectations for aesthetics is what I would put it as.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by amalji

Depends on the driver's height. I'm 5'8" and it does cut right across the speedo. I will post a photo taken from the driving seat next time to make you understand what I mean.

This is the position we normally use to horn even while steering the vehicle. Very handy to use the forearms while steering. This has worked for me on all Marutis and the Etios. But, with Fiesta, it was hard work.

I drove it once to and from Munnar and I had atleast 3 instances where the indicator would turn on while dimming the headlamps.
And yeah, I've driven cars for 14 years prior to trying out the Fiesta. This was a first time experience for me and felt really irritating.

But all these 3 points are what you have experienced. I don't see it being reported as an issue on our longest Figo thread at all. How can so many other guys not have an issue?

There is a separate thread on this already on team-bhp. Please refer - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-steering.html

I know about that thread and I can also see that apart from the posts you have quoted there is no final conclusion.

Could you please give me a single reason ( ergonomic wise ) why the indicator knob on left side is better than the one on right side ? Having driven many cars with the left knobs, I couldn't find one other than the disadvantages. So, I'm curious.

There isn't any good reason and that's what I am trying to say. There are 2 different ways of doing the same thing. If one person decides to do it one way, it does not make that the right way. There can be another way and both can be right way which in the end work. Like I said earlier I have 2 cars in which one has on left and one on right. Not once in the 3 years have I wrongly used the wrong stalk in either car. I am so used to knowing both that it is natural.

I would recommend that you read through the points once again. End of the day, I was tired like hell after driving to and from Munnar. Switch to Etios, and it felt like cool breeze.

I drove the Figo from Bangalore to Pune and was hardly tired. For one stretch fellow moderator Ajmat drove 550kms non-stop. He did not complain even once and mind you we weren't taking it easy.

When is the last time Toyota did something groundbreaking in world market ? I don't remember. But, still they sell the most number of cars in the world. It's not because of their funky designs, nor the bleeding edge technology. But, because of time tested process iterations that they do. The end result is an ultra reliable cheap to maintain ergonomic vehicle.

The Altis has a modern engine with dual VVT-i coupled with the only 7 speed super ECT box which is a new cvt-i technology. It's not groundbreaking like the TSi but it's still one of the most modern engines in the segment currently.

Toyota also have the GT-86 which has a new tech boxer engine (made along with Subaru).

Durability of the injectors doesn't count for you ?
Progressive acceleration capabilities with the aid of minute fuel controlling capability of a piezo electric injector doesn't matter to you ?

Durability of injectors doesn't count for me at all because I know it will easily last 1 lakh kms. And before that I would have sold my car. Besides there is no way to quantify that piezo electric injectors will last X kms but non piezo electric will last X-Y kms.

Progressive acceleration matters to me and that's why I have the Figo. It had progressive acceleration with absolutely ZERO turbo lag at any gear. I really don't care if they got the progressive acceleration from piezo something or solenoid. In the end it works the way I want it to perfectly.

Toyota had the option to compromise on their fundamentals and durability standards and bring out a cheap car with fully loaded gizmos. I'm glad, they haven't done that.

Toyota have very openly mentioned that the Etios and Liva live up to the Toyota name but with compromises. They have told the media that the tolerances of the parts are not the same as that of the Innova and Altis. They had to cut some corners to achieve cost. For example instead of a part designed to work X years they designed for X-Y years. Similarly if the Innova has parts with a certain range of operating temperature, the Etios is designed for a much smaller range but still within limit. For obvious reasons they did not mention which parts are compromised.

One blunder they did was to not do an eye wash by giving good colour combination and a better looking speedo. It did have a huge impact.
Second blunder was the NVH control. This means so much to Indian customers who are used to the NVH control in a Maruti and Hyundai cheap car.

Exactly. This was a huge blunder. Trying to push down cheapened down products.

End of the day, Toyota's flop products ( according to you ) account for 30% of the sales, and the company is still making profit.
With Ford, their best selling products account for 85% of the sales, but still are unable to bring profit. So, while the Ford Figo is excellent VFM, I'm not sure the pricing by Ford is a sustainable business model.

This is an easy one. Toyota's flop products account for 30% of the sales. The remaining 70% comes from huge cash cows like the Innova and Fortuner. In Feb 2013 alone, the Innova and Fortuner sold more than 7000 cars!! Can you imagine teh margins that Toyota must be making on the Innova that is priced between from 13L to 18L and Fortuner that is priced from 24-29L. These 2 alone are enough to make profits since they have huge margins on them.

Now compare them to poor Ford. 85% of their sales come from a cheap 4-6L hatch back. Everyone knows that margins are low in this segment since it's extremely competitive.

How can it be compared with Dzire which has a boot space of 300 l and comes under the 4m bracket ?

Well try telling that to the umpteen people who come and ask me what should I buy Etios or Dzire? 4m or 4.2m does not matter. The Amaze is proof of that. You can get 400L boot space as well as fantastic rear legroom from a 3.99m length car.

If Etios can be compared with Sunny, what is preventing it from comparing against Fiesta? Fiesta is after all a sedan which is the big brother of Figo. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

You can compare the 2 cars most definitely but not the sales numbers. It's like saying that the Fiesta sells better than the Accent. Both these are old age products being flogged in the segment as a low end offering. Fiesta was at one point but the Classic is just what it name suggests.

Quoting GTO's words.

The Liva has good dynamic balance, and there is no sudden understeer or oversteer coming in. Body roll is well controlled too, thanks to the low + wide stance of the car. Straight line stability is satisfactory, and the Liva is at home cruising between 100 – 130 kph

Which of the reviewers on team-bhp should I trust now ?

You have very conveniently taken GTO's post from the petrol Liva post but have nicely ignored the fact that I was the one who had reviewed the Liva Diesel and here is a para from my review as well:

Vid6639: Overall, the benchmark in handling and performance will be the new Swift followed by the Figo. The Liva is tuned more towards comfort, and is similar to the Micra's set up.

Again quoting GTO's words on Figo gear shifts.

This is my feel of it. The throws are longer than a Liva. It is less precise than a Liva as well. If you find it otherwise, I find it a bit amusing.

LOL. There is no need to quote from GTO's review of the petrol car. I have mentioned the same in my review as well. I never said the Liva's gearshifts are bad anywhere. It was really good and it was better than the petrol Liva and I was able to shift quicker than the petrol Liva. It's a slick box that is easy to shift but not very quick in changing when pushed hard. Under normal driving the box is really good.

The positive of the steering feel is the ease of drive. But ofcourse it doesn't have the feedback like in the case of a hydraulic steering. End of the day, it's effortless for me to drive a Liva over long distances. I use the car for travelling and ( yes, I do good speeds of 120 to 160 ). But, at the same time, I do not use the car for racing purpose. Within the purpose I use the car for, it feels perfectly stable.

That's what I said; steering is too light. Ofcourse anyone can do any speeds irrespective of whether steering is light or heavy. It's just that heavy steering feels a lot better at speeds than light ones. Having a light steering does not mean you cannot do 120kmph. You can definitely do it but doing it in a nice weighted steering feels way better than in a light one. Drive a Punto or Linea on the highway and you will start to realise what the Fiat guys keep harping about and why they worship the Line and Punto steering and highway manners.

I never mentioned it as an added feature. I told, it's just a different design and has its own advantages. And could you please provide me any link where Toyota advertises the dual arm mono wiper as a cost cutting measure ? I've never seen one myself.

Unfortunately you will have to believe me for this since this is what they told me. They said it as innovative ways to cut down cost.

Please be specific. Let me know one thing you felt missing on the plastics other than the looks.

I'm ok with the looks. They just feel cheap. Infact very similar to my Alto which I got after my 800.

By the way you will have to look at new arguments for the Etios sedan once the Amaze comes out. All the points which you are saying for the Etios will not be valid if Honda price the Amaze nicely.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

But all these 3 points are what you have experienced. I don't see it being reported as an issue on our longest Figo thread at all. How can so many other guys not have an issue?

I've never ever lied on team-bhp. I'll prove this in the best possible manner, with the help of photos and videos from every angle possible.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I know about that thread and I can also see that apart from the posts you have quoted there is no final conclusion.

ok, end of the day, people are able to find sensible logic for
Left for LHD &
Right for RHD.

What Ford and some other companies did was that when they moved over the system to RHD, they just didn't bother to change the sides of the switches. And I couldn't find a single reason why indicator knobs on the left side makes sense. That's the reason why I asked you for one.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I drove the Figo from Bangalore to Pune and was hardly tired. For one stretch fellow moderator Ajmat drove 550kms non-stop. He did not complain even once and mind you we weren't taking it easy.

Unfortunately, my drive was on a hilly terrain. Not a 4-lane highway. The Fiesta Diesel hardly pulls on a steep incline, making me use the long throws quite frequently. It's no fun, doing that for 150 kms of twists and turns.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The Altis has a modern engine with dual VVT-i coupled with the only 7 speed super ECT box which is a new cvt-i technology. It's not groundbreaking like the TSi but it's still one of the most modern engines in the segment currently.

Now, that you are going over to automatic, one simple question. Honda City several segments down used to provide paddle shifts ? Does the Indian variant of Corolla Altis have paddle shifts ?

And you have given the answer yourself. It competes with Laura and it has got TSi which feels way better. So, even in this segment, Toyota doesn't come up with bleeding edge technology ( inspite of the fact that this is the most likely segments to see such technologies being introduced. )
But, when they do something, they do it with perfection as in the case of Prius.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Durability of injectors doesn't count for me at all because I know it will easily last 1 lakh kms. And before that I would have sold my car. Besides there is no way to quantify that piezo electric injectors will last X kms but non piezo electric will last X-Y kms.

I buy a car not for 1 lakh kms. So, yeah, it does matter for me.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Progressive acceleration matters to me and that's why I have the Figo. It had progressive acceleration with absolutely ZERO turbo lag at any gear. I really don't care if they got the progressive acceleration from piezo something or solenoid. In the end it works the way I want it to perfectly.

Figo uses piezo electric injectors. I brought up this term when comparison was made to Swift. As I've aways said, except for the outright power, the Figo is any day a better designed car than the Swift and offers amazing VFM.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Toyota have very openly mentioned that the Etios and Liva live up to the Toyota name but with compromises. They have told the media that the tolerances of the parts are not the same as that of the Innova and Altis. They had to cut some corners to achieve cost. For example instead of a part designed to work X years they designed for X-Y years. Similarly if the Innova has parts with a certain range of operating temperature, the Etios is designed for a much smaller range but still within limit. For obvious reasons they did not mention which parts are compromised.

Ofcourse, they have compromised with regards to normal Toyota standards. But, end of the day, this is the experience for customers.

The Etios fuel filters lasts 1,50,000 kms whereas the Swift lasts 20,000
The coolant lasts 1,50,000 kms whereas in the Swift it's 20,000 kms
Transmission oil doesn't need replacement whereas in the Swift, you replace it every 20,000 kms
Clutch fluid doesn't need replacement whereas in the Swift, you replace it every 20,000 kms
Airfilter replacement interval is 40,000 whereas on a Swift it is 20,000 ( SAs even push for 10,000 replacements for Swift )
Brake fluid replacement is 40,000 whereas on a Swift, it's 20,000

So, yes, it's X-Y, but the fact remains that this X-Y still happens to be higher than what other brands offer. And Toyota was honest enough to admit that it is X-Y and not X.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Exactly. This was a huge blunder. Trying to push down cheapened down products.

That's not what I said. They invested money in the critical aspects of the car. They did not compromise there. Instead, they compromised on beautification and NVH which was a blunder because Indian customers expect that even from the cheapest cars.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

This is an easy one. Toyota's flop products account for 30% of the sales. The remaining 70% comes from huge cash cows like the Innova and Fortuner. In Feb 2013 alone, the Innova and Fortuner sold more than 7000 cars!! Can you imagine teh margins that Toyota must be making on the Innova that is priced between from 13L to 18L and Fortuner that is priced from 24-29L. These 2 alone are enough to make profits since they have huge margins on them.
Now compare them to poor Ford. 85% of their sales come from a cheap 4-6L hatch back. Everyone knows that margins are low in this segment since it's extremely competitive.

What I'm curious about is this - Toyota manufactures around 7,000 Etios/Livas per month ( including exports ). You are saying that they are manufacturing it at a loss while Ford manufactures 7,000 odd Figo/Fiesta per month, sells it at a low price and still makes profit out of it.

And you are not happy with the pricing. Are you saying that Toyota used too costly materials for Etios/Liva prodiction ? Or did you mean to say that Toyota cannot source parts at a cheaper rate ?

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Well try telling that to the umpteen people who come and ask me what should I buy Etios or Dzire? 4m or 4.2m does not matter. The Amaze is proof of that. You can get 400L boot space as well as fantastic rear legroom from a 3.99m length car.

Amaze is literally an amazing design and no one is questioning it. Honda just needs to set the pricing right and it will sell like hot cakes. But, that in no way justifies the non-sedan utility of the Dzire. The worst thing about the Swift design is that inspite of occupying the longest dimensions on the road, it has the tiniest cabin space and boot space combined with poor ergonomics.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

You have very conveniently taken GTO's post from the petrol Liva post but have nicely ignored the fact that I was the one who had reviewed the Liva Diesel and here is a para from my review as well:

Yes, I purposefully quoted GTO's words since I wanted to take a neutral stand on it because if I quote your own words, it will be easy for you to say that you meant it this way or that way.

And do you mean to say that the additional weight on the Diesel destroyed its highway stability. That sounds very amusing for me.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

LOL. There is no need to quote from GTO's review of the petrol car. I have mentioned the same in my review as well. I never said the Liva's gearshifts are bad anywhere. It was really good and it was better than the petrol Liva and I was able to shift quicker than the petrol Liva. It's a slick box that is easy to shift but not very quick in changing when pushed hard. Under normal driving the box is really good.

That sounds more realistic.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

That's what I said; steering is too light. Ofcourse anyone can do any speeds irrespective of whether steering is light or heavy. It's just that heavy steering feels a lot better at speeds than light ones. Having a light steering does not mean you cannot do 120kmph. You can definitely do it but doing it in a nice weighted steering feels way better than in a light one. Drive a Punto or Linea on the highway and you will start to realise what the Fiat guys keep harping about and why they worship the Line and Punto steering and highway manners.

I do understand what a hydraulic steering with a heavy body brings in. But, for day to day driving on the busy Indian roads, I felt the Fiesta steering was tiring. And even though the Liva steering is light, it's not as utra light or ultra sensitive as in the case of Verna. I found it quite balanced ( but without any feedback ).

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Unfortunately you will have to believe me for this since this is what they told me. They said it as innovative ways to cut down cost.

The point is that it is innovative. Dual arm mono wiper is a different technology, and has its own advantages.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I'm ok with the looks. They just feel cheap. Infact very similar to my Alto which I got after my 800.

It has more to do with the colour combinations used than the materials used. Did you try out the new facelift interiors ?

Originally Posted by Vid6639

By the way you will have to look at new arguments for the Etios sedan once the Amaze comes out. All the points which you are saying for the Etios will not be valid if Honda price the Amaze nicely.

No, I do not have any arguments for the Etios against Amaze ( except, maybe the maintenance cost and larger boot ). Amaze is a fantastic design from what little information I have. And I hope, it helps people switch from the pathetically designed Swift.

[nkrishnap]

Firstly this is going to be a long post. Kindly excuse.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

And besides you should not need to use the indicators when turning. The use of indicators is to signal before a turn.

Precisely. Placement of indicators stalks to the left or right should not matter until the fundamental rule of indicating before a turn is followed.

I was saying in the segment and not just between 2 cars. FGT is there in Figo and Swift but Swift has a DOHC engine 4 valve per cylinder engine. The Etios is pretty much the oldest technology similar to the Figo so Toyota is not doing anything ground breaking.

Again very true, the 1ND engine dates back to the beginning of 2000/2001 year with the 2 Valve per cyclinder. When every other manufacturer is moving to a 4 valve set up, Toyota is still stuck with 2 valves. What cutting edge engineering is there in this. This is just like any other Toyota engine which is detuned to enhance life.

I don't really care if the injectors are made of piezo electric or some exotic material. In the end how the car drives is what matters to me.

Why should one worry whether the car has a piezo electric injectors or solenoid injectors until the car runs fine. The Mulitjet runs with the injector with 6 holes of 11 microns each for atomization of fuel. Not sure how the 1.4 D4D engine has a superior injection set up with the Piezo electric injectors.

Any idea as to how many injections per cycle is the piezo electric injectors and the set up is designed to perform.

They might have given all that you mentioned but does it translate to sales numbers?

Toyota should start advertising the injector types to get more sales going forward by highlighting what it is doing so differently from so many other diesel cars running on the roads for many many thousand kilometers.

Instead of comparing the combined numbers let's just compare the Figo vs Liva numbers which is 1698 vs 3804.

Again to the point. Why is sedan numbers clubbed to compare with the Figo. Let the comparison be apples to apples and not apples or oranges.

The discussion was on these 2 products and not on the sedan. I have already acknowledged that the sedan is decently speced but priced on higher side. Etios should be compared with Dzire, Sunny and even Rapid.

Etios should be compared with the Dzire which is its primary competitor and not against Figo. Etios with whatever engineering it has got, is overpriced by 50-80K bucks across the variants. Moreover the sales of Etios is to the cabbies at least in Bangalore. Viva Toyota had a bagged an order of 800 G Variant Diesel Etios for the Airport Taxi cabs.

I felt the Liva was extremely poor at speeds in terms of stability, the steering felt very light with zero feedback. The gearbox did not like quick gear changes and it was a pain sitting inside with the diesel clatter on the highway. The new one might have lesser noise but the highway stability, steering feel, handling still has a long way to go.

Coming from an Ex-owner of Liva, the car was decent till 120 kmph beyond which the driver needs to be on the toes. Even little undulations the roads would unsettle the car. No ways it is confidence inspiring to drive both the sedan and the hatch version of Etios at 160 kmph.

Note: I am not encouraging or advocating high speed antics.

So why did Toyota bring to India a cheaper stripped down car? If you want volume comparison lets compare the Swift sales as well in other countries. Oh wait we can compare swift but there is no Liva in other countries cause it was only for 3rd world countries.

Spot on again. The other country where you can compare Liva sales is South Africa.

The single wiper feature has been openly advertised by Toyota as a cost saving feature and it is very assuming that you are actually saying it is an added feature.

In mechanical terms, it could be called a value engineering by reducing the number of parts to run with a single wiper. The only advantage was the sweep it provided. But the wiper blade quality is nothing short of crap. My Liva's wipers did not last 2 months of rain in Bangalore. Had replaced it twice with OEM ones before finally settling in for the Hella Dyna Blade wiper.

At the end of the day, one may argue that the Etios is better than the Dzire and the Liva is better than the Swift. But Maruti is the one laughing all the way to the bank and Toyota is the one who had to go back to the drawing board to fix some glaring omissions in their cars.

No wonder Toyota is releasing so many minor model changes (in its own terms) to revive the sales of the Etios which is below its targeted sales.

They heavily underestimated the indian public and thought that they could shove down basic, stripped down built to a cost product and get away with it by assuming that the Toyota brand name would be enough.

Even the mighty Toyota Brand name is not helping the Etios be a block buster in the sales charts even for Toyota leaving aside the market numbers.

Originally Posted by amalji

I would recommend that you read through the points once again. End of the day, I was tired like hell after driving to and from Munnar. Switch to Etios, and it felt like cool breeze.

After getting used to a particular it will not easy to feel at home every car one drives. Same applies to me as well. After getting used to the Linea, it takes quite some time to get used to any other car I drive. That does not mean, I can confidently say that Linea has the best ergonomics.

When is the last time Toyota did something groundbreaking in world market ? I don't remember. But, still they sell the most number of cars in the world. It's not because of their funky designs, nor the bleeding edge technology. But, because of time tested process iterations that they do. The end result is an ultra reliable cheap to maintain ergonomic vehicle.

Nobody is contesting that Toyota is bringing ground breaking technology, at least with the Etios. In one of the posts it is mentioned that the sales number does not prove anything, so with Toyota topping does not prove anything right as per the analogy applied in the earlier post in the closed thread.

Durability of the injectors doesn't count for you? Progressive acceleration capabilities with the aid of minute fuel controlling capability of a piezo electric injector doesn't matter to you ?

This may be a question to Vid6639, but let me still get to it. The minute fuel controlling happens at the ECU and not at the injectors which ever type it is. The injectors work as per how the ECU is coded with. Secondly, what makes you think that the other injectors used are not durable. Is there a source where it can be proven how much better is the piezo electric injectors compared to solenoid.

No, it doesn't. I still believe Baleno is the best designed car by Maruti. It was a reviewer's delight as well. Did it churn out sales numbers ? No, in India, the requirements are different. Toyota had the option to compromise on their fundamentals and durability standards and bring out a cheap car with fully loaded gizmos. I'm glad, they haven't done that.

Which other manufacturer is giving poor fundamentals for the car that they manufacture which is breaking part in the first few years of ownership. There is nothing ground breaking in the fundamentals that they have provided apart from the decent set up suspension and the detuned engines.

One blunder they did was to not do an eye wash by giving good colour combination and a better looking speedo. It did have a huge impact.
Second blunder was the NVH control. This means so much to Indian customers who are used to the NVH control in a Maruti and Hyundai cheap car.

The plastics in Etios/Liva is not about just the color, its the quality as well. If the quality was that good, Toyota would have replicated that in the Corolla and Innova too. But one thing for sure, the plastics are screwed in better, no denying that.

End of the day, Toyota's flop products ( according to you ) account for 30% of the sales, and the company is still making profit.
With Ford, their best selling products account for 85% of the sales, but still are unable to bring profit. So, while the Ford Figo is excellent VFM, I'm not sure the pricing by Ford is a sustainable business model.

How much would the 30% of the total sales that you are repeatedly mentioning contribute to the overall turnover for the month. Let me try my hand at a simple calculation based on the Feb sales numbers.

Average cost (ex-showroom price - VAT, including the transportation cost in the calc)

Read as model, average cost, units sold, revenue in crores.

Etios petrol, 560000, 136, 7.6 crores
Etios diesel, 650000, 2661, 173 crores

Liva Petrol, 485000, 171, 8.2 crores
Liva Diesel, 520000, 1527, 79.4 crores

Corolla Petrol, 1160000, 93, 10.79 crores
Corolla Diesel, 1190000, 113, 13.45 crores

Innova Diesel, 1232000, 6496, 800.3 crores

Fortuner Diesel, 1190000, 1515, 303 crores.

Approx Total revenue = 1396 crores. Etios + Liva share = 268 crores = approximately 19% of overall revenue.

It is very clearly evident in both mathematical and financial sense even with the approximate numbers that the cash cow for Toyota is the Innova and the Fortuner.

The positive of the steering feel is the ease of drive. But ofcourse it doesn't have the feedback like in the case of a hydraulic steering. End of the day, it's effortless for me to drive a Liva over long distances. I use the car for travelling and ( yes, I do good speeds of 120 to 160 ). But, at the same time, I do not use the car for racing purpose. Within the purpose I use the car for, it feels perfectly stable.

My response to the high stability is already quoted above.

Of course, it's for 3rd world countries. On other countries, thanks to better economic position, and more scientific taxation, Toyota doesn't need a cheaper variant. Their more expensive models are more than enough to churn out good sales numbers.

Its not just because the taxation here is stopping Toyota to get better products, its their policy of having targets of high internal rate of return for each product that they launch is what keeping them away to introduce better engineered products. I got this insight from the plant operations person itself.

Please be specific. Let me know one thing you felt missing on the plastics other than the looks.

May be durability. Etios is quite young in the market. Will need to see how durable the plastics in the longer run.

As I mentioned, sales figures doesn't necessarily reflect how good a car is. This is the first time, that Toyota has entered the cost conscious segment in India. It's an already crowded segment. They will surely be learning from the Etios, and should make the corrections on Dear Qin. But, as a car, I would thank Toyota for the Etios design because it combines many advantages of multiple brands which never used to co-exist together earlier. And I don't care about the gizmos. I care more about the car.

The response related to this already mentioned above.

They heavily mistook our expectations for aesthetics is what I would put it as.

Toyota did underestimate the car buying public when it came to the Etios/Liva inspite of the research they did.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

But all these 3 points are what you have experienced. I don't see it being reported as an issue on our longest Figo thread at all. How can so many other guys not have an issue?

This feeling at home factor is more related to a person comfort in terms of adjusting to the car as a whole which is already mentioned in this very post. The other guys not having an issue itself is re-emphasizing the fact that it is more person specific than general consensus.

There isn't any good reason and that's what I am trying to say. There are 2 different ways of doing the same thing. If one person decides to do it one way, it does not make that the right way. There can be another way and both can be right way which in the end work. Like I said earlier I have 2 cars in which one has on left and one on right. Not once in the 3 years have I wrongly used the wrong stalk in either car. I am so used to knowing both that it is natural.

Spot on again.

Durability of injectors doesn't count for me at all because I know it will easily last 1 lakh kms. And before that I would have sold my car. Besides there is no way to quantify that piezo electric injectors will last X kms but non piezo electric will last X-Y kms.

Not sure how much better can the piezo electric injectors can get when the other type of injectors are running as intended similar to the the life of the piezo elecric injectors. With so much emphasis and hype given to this piezo electric injectors, I dread the fact when it comes to replacing it, it will definitely be costlier which defeats purpose of so called superior engineering.

Progressive acceleration matters to me and that's why I have the Figo. It had progressive acceleration with absolutely ZERO turbo lag at any gear. I really don't care if they got the progressive acceleration from piezo something or solenoid. In the end it works the way I want it to perfectly.

Spot on again.

Toyota have very openly mentioned that the Etios and Liva live up to the Toyota name but with compromises. They have told the media that the tolerances of the parts are not the same as that of the Innova and Altis. They had to cut some corners to achieve cost. For example instead of a part designed to work X years they designed for X-Y years. Similarly if the Innova has parts with a certain range of operating temperature, the Etios is designed for a much smaller range but still within limit. For obvious reasons they did not mention which parts are compromised.

Toyota will not come out in open and accept the fact that they have cut corners at every possible place to make it more profitable with each vehicle sold.

Exactly. This was a huge blunder. Trying to push down cheapened down products.

The sales numbers definitely reflect this and the market apart from the yellow board has not taken it lightly.

This is an easy one. Toyota's flop products account for 30% of the sales. The remaining 70% comes from huge cash cows like the Innova and Fortuner. In Feb 2013 alone, the Innova and Fortuner sold more than 7000 cars!! Can you imagine teh margins that Toyota must be making on the Innova that is priced between from 13L to 18L and Fortuner that is priced from 24-29L. These 2 alone are enough to make profits since they have huge margins on them.

Even the assumptive numbers prove that the Etios and Liva hardly contributes about 20% of revenue even with 30% of sales that is being repeatedly being brought into discussion.

Well try telling that to the umpteen people who come and ask me what should I buy Etios or Dzire? 4m or 4.2m does not matter. The Amaze is proof of that. You can get 400L boot space as well as fantastic rear legroom from a 3.99m length car.

Toyota has its task cut out once the Amaze gets launched. The primary target for Amaze would be the Dzire and Etios. Honda should not mess with pricing as they did with the Jazz.

LOL. There is no need to quote from GTO's review of the petrol car. I have mentioned the same in my review as well. I never said the Liva's gearshifts are bad anywhere. It was really good and it was better than the petrol Liva and I was able to shift quicker than the petrol Liva. It's a slick box that is easy to shift but not very quick in changing when pushed hard. Under normal driving the box is really good.

The gearbox isn't bad but not as butter smooth as the Honda's for sure. I had issue with my Liva while slotting into first gear and the reverse gear. The solution I had after repeated attempts at the service centers is giving it a second try.

That's what I said; steering is too light. Ofcourse anyone can do any speeds irrespective of whether steering is light or heavy. It's just that heavy steering feels a lot better at speeds than light ones. Having a light steering does not mean you cannot do 120kmph. You can definitely do it but doing it in a nice weighted steering feels way better than in a light one. Drive a Punto or Linea on the highway and you will start to realise what the Fiat guys keep harping about and why they worship the Line and Punto steering and highway manners.

Even in my ownership of my Liva, I had penned it down that the Liva rides and handles neutral, but no where close to even the Palio, so forget about comparing it to Punto and Linea. It cannot match any of the European hatch/sedan in its segment.

By the way you will have to look at new arguments for the Etios sedan once the Amaze comes out. All the points which you are saying for the Etios will not be valid if Honda price the Amaze nicely.

It will be interesting to see those arguments with the pop corn on a weekend.

Originally Posted by amalji

I've never ever lied on team-bhp. I'll prove this in the best possible manner, with the help of photos and videos from every angle possible.

Nobody either here would lie to get some mileage out their posts or point of view.

What Ford and some other companies did was that when they moved over the system to RHD, they just didn't bother to change the sides of the switches. And I couldn't find a single reason why indicator knobs on the left side makes sense. That's the reason why I asked you for one.

What makes you think that they would not have thought about changing the control to moved either side? From what I have heard from the plant guys is that Etios is intended for the LHD markets too and thats the reason for Central Console. So can we conclude that Toyota is not bothered about either the RHD or LHD markets. They would have done after a lot of feasibility analysis.

Unfortunately, my drive was on a hilly terrain. Not a 4-lane highway. The Fiesta Diesel hardly pulls on a steep incline, making me use the long throws quite frequently. It's no fun, doing that for 150 kms of twists and turns.

The clutch of the petrol Etios/Liva is super light, but the same is not true with the diesel. I found it really uncomfortable and painful after a drive in the ghats for about 120 kms. Neighter is the Etios/Liva Diesel different to Figo in terms of actual performace. Now the 0-100 numbers are not the ones here.

I buy a car not for 1 lakh kms. So, yeah, it does matter for me.

None of the manufacturers give out the actual life of the car. There are quite a few cars with MJD engine (which is frequently brought into comparison) which have done over 1 lakh kms. I have personally seen a Linea which had 186xxx kms in 3.5 years which is quite some running for a white board car. Will get a picture of the odometer and the car with the permission of the owner next time.

Figo uses piezo electric injectors. I brought up this term when comparison was made to Swift. As I've aways said, except for the outright power, the Figo is any day a better designed car than the Swift and offers amazing VFM.

Swift is more fun to drive than the Liva/Etios diesel any given day. So whats that is new that the piezo electric injector is bringing to the table apart from the branding.

What I'm curious about is this - Toyota manufactures around 7,000 Etios/Livas per month ( including exports ). You are saying that they are manufacturing it at a loss while Ford manufactures 7,000 odd Figo/Fiesta per month, sells it at a low price and still makes profit out of it.

If Toyota was selling it at a loss with the engineering the Etios/Liva provides they would have pulled the plug or even not executed the project at all. Why you see the repeated refreshes is to increase the returns from the investment that is already made and to ensure the Etios twins does not become a market dud. A pat on the back for Toyota for trying after the initial goof up.

And you are not happy with the pricing. Are you saying that Toyota used too costly materials for Etios/Liva prodiction ? Or did you mean to say that Toyota cannot source parts at a cheaper rate ?

It is neighter, the asking price for the car with the engineering that has gone in to it is disproportionate.

And do you mean to say that the additional weight on the Diesel destroyed its highway stability. That sounds very amusing for me.

Just adding weight will not bring about highway stability. In that case all heavy vehicles would have the best highway stability. I hope you will not contest to the fact that Etios is not the best car out there with the highway stability.

The point is that it is innovative. Dual arm mono wiper is a different technology, and has its own advantages.

A couple of advantages I can see is the sweep and the cost. Nothing more or nothing less.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Precisely. Placement of indicators stalks to the left or right should not matter until the fundamental rule of indicating before a turn is followed.

Applying the same logic, the accelerator pedal on the right or left doesn't matter. Fuel lids on right or left doesn't matter. But that's not the case. The placement is done for a reason.

Indicators needs frequent intervention ( even while using the gears or planning to use the gears ), while that's not the case with wipers. You can afford to keep the wiper on/off for a bit longer. That's the reason why placing indicator position on

right on RHD and
left on LHD makes sense.

If you don't agree, it's fine. But, this is basic logic and there is already a thread on it as what I've explained on my previous post.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Again very true, the 1ND engine dates back to the beginning of 2000/2001 year with the 2 Valve per cyclinder. When every other manufacturer is moving to a 4 valve set up, Toyota is still stuck with 2 valves. What cutting edge engineering is there in this. This is just like any other Toyota engine which is detuned to enhance life.

That's what has worked for Toyota all the way. People who buy Toyota do not buy it for their funkiness or bleeding edge technology but for their durable and hassle free ownership experience. You can do whatever with technology. End of the day all that matters are

• Torque per ton
• PS per ton
• Shape of the torque curve
• How progressive the acceleration is
• How intelligent the programming inside ECU is
• How durable the engine and its associated parts are

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Why should one worry whether the car has a piezo electric injectors or solenoid injectors until the car runs fine. The Mulitjet runs with the injector with 6 holes of 11 microns each for atomization of fuel. Not sure how the 1.4 D4D engine has a superior injection set up with the Piezo electric injectors.
Any idea as to how many injections per cycle is the piezo electric injectors and the set up is designed to perform.

What I instantly feel as a driver is the smooth response as soon as I apply accelerator and remove the pedal from the accelerator. It's not jerky. It's progressive. It also effects efficiency. I'll give you the number of injections from enginecal guys. They were trying to tune the Liva Diesel and was pleasantly surprised with what Toyota has done inside the heart inspite of the older technology.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Toyota should start advertising the injector types to get more sales going forward by highlighting what it is doing so differently from so many other diesel cars running on the roads for many many thousand kilometers.

They don't need to do anything like that. It's just that Maruti compromises on critical components like brakes, injectors, space whereas Toyota compromises on aesthetics but give their best bet for creating a dependable, durable and practical machine.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Again to the point. Why is sedan numbers clubbed to compare with the Figo. Let the comparison be apples to apples and not apples or oranges.

Reason is simple.
Both are based on the same design.
And please let me know how a Dzire is more utility than a Figo. It's just a hatch in the shape of a sedan. Maruti said it is a sedan and people believed that it's a sedan.
When they have the sales number to back, we can crib about any car however poor the design might be.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Moreover the sales of Etios is to the cabbies at least in Bangalore. Viva Toyota had a bagged an order of 800 G Variant Diesel Etios for the Airport Taxi cabs.

Not so in Kochi and Kerala in general. Yeah, it's used by taxis as well. But, you will find more non-taxi Etios on Kerala roads. The fact that people are used to Toyotas ( even the cheapest ones ) helps its sales here. So, they know what to expect.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Coming from an Ex-owner of Liva, the car was decent till 120 kmph beyond which the driver needs to be on the toes. Even little undulations the roads would unsettle the car. No ways it is confidence inspiring to drive both the sedan and the hatch version of Etios at 160 kmph.

I've taken the Liva to 140 and Etios to 160 kmph. I would any day take an Etios and not Swift at that speed for one simple reason - the braking and the mannerisms of the car on hard braking at that speeds. I've tried it multiple times with ABS working, and it has saved my day for me.
The high speed cornering abilities is not as good as the Swift or Figo. But cornering required more on rallies, not on express highways. But braking does matter at high speeds whichever road it is.

Note: Even, I am not encouraging or advocating high speed antics. Do not want these posts to encourage someone to drive at a high speed.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Spot on again. The other country where you can compare Liva sales is South Africa.

And it's the number 3 best seller over there behind VW Polo and Toyota Hilux

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

In mechanical terms, it could be called a value engineering by reducing the number of parts to run with a single wiper. The only advantage was the sweep it provided. But the wiper blade quality is nothing short of crap. My Liva's wipers did not last 2 months of rain in Bangalore. Had replaced it twice with OEM ones before finally settling in for the Hella Dyna Blade wiper.

Weird, I use the 2nd wiper even after 1.5 years of usage on heavy Kerala rains. Even the 1st wiper was replaced, because I insisted as a proactive measure before the monsoons. And i believe it rains more in Kerala than in Bangalore.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

No wonder Toyota is releasing so many minor model changes (in its own terms) to revive the sales of the Etios which is below its targeted sales.

Ofcourse, they are trying to do what they missed last time. The aesthetics and NVH
Any sensible companies would do that especially after entering a highly competitive segment for the very first time

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Even the mighty Toyota Brand name is not helping the Etios be a block buster in the sales charts even for Toyota leaving aside the market numbers.

Qualis too got a cold response initially. So, I would recommend that you show some patience. They are world number 1 for a reason. Qualis matured into Innova. Similarly the etios will mature into Dear Qin

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

After getting used to a particular it will not easy to feel at home every car one drives. Same applies to me as well. After getting used to the Linea, it takes quite some time to get used to any other car I drive. That does not mean, I can confidently say that Linea has the best ergonomics.

Yes, to a certain extent. No, when I go for a drive which covers a total of 400 kms ( especially in the final 150 kms stretch ).
Even when I used other cars, it was love at first drive on the Lancer, Baleno and Etios Petrol while the European/American cars always felt hard work. Yes, there are advantages for a heavier design. But, after trying out either designs, I would always prefer a peppier and easy to drive Japanese car any day over an American/European design. Again, it's personal choice.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Nobody is contesting that Toyota is bringing ground breaking technology, at least with the Etios. In one of the posts it is mentioned that the sales number does not prove anything, so with Toyota topping does not prove anything right as per the analogy applied in the earlier post in the closed thread.

Sales numbers do prove one thing. The consumer's connect with the brand. A Maruti sells because it cares for its customers. A FIAT in contrast doesn't sell, due to the lack of concern it showed towards its customers over the years. But to topple down a market leader from a segment, it has to overpower the leader in many critical factors including aesthetics ( especially in India ), and NVH. Toyota missed the trick there. It's just this factor that went against the Etios and nothing else.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

This may be a question to Vid6639, but let me still get to it. The minute fuel controlling happens at the ECU and not at the injectors which ever type it is. The injectors work as per how the ECU is coded with.

There is no point in coding inside ECU for minute fuel control, when your injectors cannot handle it. While the injector does work according to what the ECU is programmed for, there is a threshold beyond which it cannot minimize fuel flow.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Secondly, what makes you think that the other injectors used are not durable. Is there a source where it can be proven how much better is the piezo electric injectors compared to solenoid.

For the simple reason - in my friend circle, the highest diesel engine component failures happens with solenoid injectors and turbos. If you don't believe in it, it's perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Which other manufacturer is giving poor fundamentals for the car that they manufacture which is breaking part in the first few years of ownership. There is nothing ground breaking in the fundamentals that they have provided apart from the decent set up suspension and the detuned engines.

Take the case of Swift

• Poor cabin space design ( inspite of occupying the longest portion on road )
• Poor boot space
• Cheaper injectors
• Poor ergonomics
• The turbo failings ( I hope, Maruti has solved this )
• Poor brakes
• High maintenance costs

But, it comes with a fantastic engine with good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors. Add to that the Maruti support and you have a winner on your hand because that is all what the segment asks for.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

The plastics in Etios/Liva is not about just the color, its the quality as well. If the quality was that good, Toyota would have replicated that in the Corolla and Innova too. But one thing for sure, the plastics are screwed in better, no denying that.

Wrong to expect a company to use the same plastics on a 7lakhs and 15 lakhs car. Give me specifics. If you say, the plastics used are X grade on Etios and Y grade on Swift, I agree. I've seen several critics of the old model crib about the facelift that plastic quality has improved a lot whereas in reality, Toyota just changed the colours!

The fact is that it performs the functions which it is supposed to perform beautifully. Even the aesthetics has become decent post facelift.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

How much would the 30% of the total sales that you are repeatedly mentioning contribute to the overall turnover for the month. Let me try my hand at a simple calculation based on the Feb sales numbers.

I've already countered that question. My point was that @vid says Toyota is selling Etios/Liva on a loss inspite of manufacturing 7,000 units per month. Ford sells a similar number, sells at a lower cost and still makes profit ( according to @vid )

So, if this is true, either

Toyota is using too costly materials inside Etios or
Toyota is incapable of sourcing materials cheap.

I'm curious to know what he thinks is the reason.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Its not just because the taxation here is stopping Toyota to get better products, its their policy of having targets of high internal rate of return for each product that they launch is what keeping them away to introduce better engineered products. I got this insight from the plant operations person itself.

Without rate of return, an automobile company won't survive nor will it be able to provide high quality support.

Ford India has never ever been able to make profit in India so is GM. The only non-Indian companies making profit in India are Toyota and Hyundai.
They also happen to be the best in terms of support for non-Indian automobile companies. You buy a car from them, you can be assured that they will be there to support you even after 10 years.
Same is the case with Maruti as well.

Same is the case with resale as well. Resale with Liva was not great to start with. But, it has improved a lot now especially in Kerala.

1 year old Liva GD bought for 6.1 OTR giving 5.65 lakhs from Toyota, Kozhikode and 5.9 Lakhs from 3rd party is decent resale.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

May be durability. Etios is quite young in the market. Will need to see how durable the plastics in the longer run.

It's not rocket science to produce durable plastics. Even my old zen's plastics lasted its 10 years. We are just giving too much importance to non-critical and aesthetic elements of a car.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Toyota did underestimate the car buying public when it came to the Etios/Liva inspite of the research they did.

As I've mentioned several times already, they underestimated the requirements with regards to aesthetics and NVH. Nothing else. But, these 2 factors were too critical in the segment.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

With so much emphasis and hype given to this piezo electric injectors, I dread the fact when it comes to replacing it, it will definitely be costlier which defeats purpose of so called superior engineering.

Ofcourse, it's costlier and in most cases, the utility negates the extra cost. You get a smoother acceleration control, and higher life. I'm glad Toyota didn't think much about cost when they added these injectors.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Toyota has its task cut out once the Amaze gets launched. The primary target for Amaze would be the Dzire and Etios. Honda should not mess with pricing as they did with the Jazz.

I agree with this point completely. Amaze is a fantastic design with what little I heard of it. I too pray that they price it properly. The fact that it's less than 4m in length and still able to use a lot of cabin space and boot space in itself will give them an advantage with regards to the pricing.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Even in my ownership of my Liva, I had penned it down that the Liva rides and handles neutral, but no where close to even the Palio, so forget about comparing it to Punto and Linea. It cannot match any of the European hatch/sedan in its segment.

That's not what a Japanese car is designed for. It's designed for peppiness, easy drivability, long lasting parts ( due to lighter design ), and easy maintenance.
Inspite of its ultra light body, it still, it gives adequate comfort, speed masking and offers neutral handling.

For people, who need heavy and comfortable ride at the cost of advantages of a lighter design, they should look for European/American designs.

Both has their advantages and disadvantages. I prefer the lighter designs any day.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

What makes you think that they would not have thought about changing the control to moved either side? From what I have heard from the plant guys is that Etios is intended for the LHD markets too and thats the reason for Central Console. So can we conclude that Toyota is not bothered about either the RHD or LHD markets. They would have done after a lot of feasibility analysis.

End of the day, what effect does it have on ergonomics. That's all what matters. The center console tilted towards the driver is an ergonomic design ( even though it doesn't look great )

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

The clutch of the petrol Etios/Liva is super light, but the same is not true with the diesel. I found it really uncomfortable and painful after a drive in the ghats for about 120 kms. Neighter is the Etios/Liva Diesel different to Figo in terms of actual performace. Now the 0-100 numbers are not the ones here.

This sounds quite amusing, because I've driven both these vehicles extensively. Liva is definitely more peppier and drivable.

If you want me to prove it with stats, here it comes.
Torque per ton of Liva - 173.46 Nm / ton ( from 1800 to 2400 rpm )
Torque per ton of Figo - 146.79 Nm/ton ( @ 2000 rpms )

If you say that both feels the same, then I've nothing more to say.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

None of the manufacturers give out the actual life of the car. There are quite a few cars with MJD engine (which is frequently brought into comparison) which have done over 1 lakh kms. I have personally seen a Linea which had 186xxx kms in 3.5 years which is quite some running for a white board car. Will get a picture of the odometer and the car with the permission of the owner next time.

Post the service bills for every periodic service ( if possible ). I'll post the same for an Etios Diesel which has done 1,70,000 kms. I'll be meeting this person soon.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Swift is more fun to drive than the Liva/Etios diesel any given day. So whats that is new that the piezo electric injector is bringing to the table apart from the branding.

Progressive acceleration ( instead of jerky ). This could be one of the reason why it gets a better ARAI rating inspite of using a larger engine.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Just adding weight will not bring about highway stability. In that case all heavy vehicles would have the best highway stability. I hope you will not contest to the fact that Etios is not the best car out there with the highway stability.

For me, to be able to drive at high speeds, I need 2 things.

• Excellent braking that doesn't have drama
• Good high speed stability.

Etios has both. If I go for Rally, I would ask for the best in class high speed stability because I need to take even tight corners at high speeds. But, for highway cruising on express highways, braking is certainly the most important factor and Etios/Liva just rocks.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

A couple of advantages I can see is the sweep and the cost. Nothing more or nothing less.

The sweep and the lack of distortion at the center of the screen during each half wipe. It's a huge clean sweep. The same technology is used even in the certain models of Yaris by Toyota.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by amalji

Applying the same logic, the accelerator pedal on the right or left doesn't matter. Fuel lids on right or left doesn't matter. But that's not the case. The placement is done for a reason.

Indicators needs frequent intervention ( even while using the gears or planning to use the gears ), while that's not the case with wipers. You can afford to keep the wiper on/off for a bit longer. That's the reason why placing indicator position on

right on RHD and
left on LHD makes sense.

As per this logic, most cars are not suitable on Indian Roads.

If you don't agree, it's fine. But, this is basic logic and there is already a thread on it as what I've explained on my previous post.

Its fine with us too if you do not want to agree with our observations. People have different opinions so be it. The quotes you mentioned in the earlier posts were inconclusive.

That's what has worked for Toyota all the way. People who buy Toyota do not buy it for their funkiness or bleeding edge technology but for their durable and hassle free ownership experience. You can do whatever with technology. End of the day all that matters are

• Torque per ton
• PS per ton
• Shape of the torque curve
• How progressive the acceleration is
• How intelligent the programming inside ECU is
• How durable the engine and its associated parts are

What works for Toyota might not exactly work in the Indian market. They need to adapt, else with the list of positives the Etios twin would have been a run away success, which is not the case.

Again durability from Toyota is taking it too far in the modern era context. There are many others cars in the segment which is at least at par if not better than the Etios/Liva durability.

What I instantly feel as a driver is the smooth response as soon as I apply accelerator and remove the pedal from the accelerator. It's not jerky. It's progressive. It also effects efficiency. I'll give you the number of injections from enginecal guys. They were trying to tune the Liva Diesel and was pleasantly surprised with what Toyota has done inside the heart inspite of the older technology.

Which other car which did not have the piezo electric injectors had jerky feeling when you drove them? Quite eager to know this and how this test was done and under what load conditions.

They don't need to do anything like that. It's just that Maruti compromises on critical components like brakes, injectors, space whereas Toyota compromises on aesthetics but give their best bet for creating a dependable, durable and practical machine.

I for one atleast did not debate that Toyota is compromising on critical components. What is causing the dissatisfaction in me is the disproportionate asking for the engineering that is on offer. If you still could not get it, I would leave it at that.

Reason is simple. Both are based on the same design. And please let me know how a Dzire is more utility than a Figo. It's just a hatch in the shape of a sedan. Maruti said it is a sedan and people believed that it's a sedan. When they have the sales number to back, we can crib about any car however poor the design might be.

I still cannot see the reason as to why is it wrong when car with a boot is considered as sedan whether it is within 4 m or beyond 4m. But that does not make sense to classify all cars under 4m as hatches. People dont believe Dzire is a sedan because Maruti said it is, but the market perceived it is and it clicked. Neighter you or me can change this fact.

Probably its either convince or confuse strategy in force here.

Not so in Kochi and Kerala in general. Yeah, it's used by taxis as well. But, you will find more non-taxi Etios on Kerala roads. The fact that people are used to Toyotas ( even the cheapest ones ) helps its sales here. So, they know what to expect.

Indian automobile market is spread across many other states and cities apart from Kerala and Kochi. Good that people are used to Toyota and are buying Toyota cars, but that does not mean whatever is on offer from Toyota is the best. If you still want to press home the point that what Toyota is offering is the best, then whatever discussion is being had is futile.

I've taken the Liva to 140 and Etios to 160 kmph. I would any day take an Etios and not Swift at that speed for one simple reason - the braking and the mannerisms of the car on hard braking at that speeds. I've tried it multiple times with ABS working, and it has saved my day for me.
The high speed cornering abilities is not as good as the Swift or Figo. But cornering required more on rallies, not on express highways. But braking does matter at high speeds whichever road it is.

Firstly, its nice to know that you are safe and sound with the ABS kicking in and saved the day for you.

Swift is not the only car out there in the market. Start comparing the braking abilities with the i20, Figo, Fabia, Punto, Polo and then rank it. Just comparing it with the car that is having the least of the capabilities does not prove anything. Also, braking matters not just on highway, but every road that you drive on.

Note: Even, I am not encouraging or advocating high speed antics. Do not want these posts to encourage someone to drive at a high speed.

Good, at least we are in consensus on this.

And it's the number 3 best seller over there behind VW Polo and Toyota Hilux

I would be very happy to know the market size to see the how much the actual ranking means.

Weird, I use the 2nd wiper even after 1.5 years of usage on heavy Kerala rains. Even the 1st wiper was replaced, because I insisted as a proactive measure before the monsoons. And i believe it rains more in Kerala than in Bangalore.

True, that whole of Kerala sees more rain in a season that what Bangalore sees throughout the year. But, I guess the Liva I had repeated failures with the wiper blades unable to clean the windshield effectively. May I got a lemon wiper both the times.

Qualis too got a cold response initially. So, I would recommend that you show some patience. They are world number 1 for a reason. Qualis matured into Innova. Similarly the etios will mature into Dear Qin

Fantastic that a giant company like Toyota is having to go back to drawing board so many times to get Etios matured at the cost of the initial customers who feel let down with each iteration trying to better something than the previous version. One positive is that there is one new version out once a year.

Yes, to a certain extent. No, when I go for a drive which covers a total of 400 kms ( especially in the final 150 kms stretch ). Even when I used other cars, it was love at first drive on the Lancer, Baleno and Etios Petrol while the European/American cars always felt hard work. Yes, there are advantages for a heavier design. But, after trying out either designs, I would always prefer a peppier and easy to drive Japanese car any day over an American/European design. Again, it's personal choice.

True, a personal choice does not imply the choice to hold true for everybody. If I go on to say, I was at home driving a truck due to ergonomics and the truck is the best ergonomic vehicle out there makes no sense.

Sales numbers do prove one thing. The consumer's connect with the brand. A Maruti sells because it cares for its customers. A FIAT in contrast doesn't sell, due to the lack of concern it showed towards its customers over the years. But to topple down a market leader from a segment, it has to overpower the leader in many critical factors including aesthetics ( especially in India ), and NVH. Toyota missed the trick there. It's just this factor that went against the Etios and nothing else.

I get the point that you are trying to drag FIAT in to the conversation, but I am not going to fall for it. FIAT does not sell due to poor after sales, so can I conclude that Etios is not the sales topper because the product is poor?

There is no point in coding inside ECU for minute fuel control, when your injectors cannot handle it. While the injector does work according to what the ECU is programmed for, there is a threshold beyond which it cannot minimize fuel flow.

Its amazing to read how the piezo electric injectors that Toyota is providing in the decade old engine has brought about a sea of change in automobile industry at least in India and all other manufacturers are clinging on to the failed technology.

For the simple reason - in my friend circle, the highest diesel engine component failures happens with solenoid injectors and turbos. If you don't believe in it, it's perfectly fine.

Its perfectly with me too, if you perceive that all cars without piezo electric injectors fail and turbos go bust. To each to his own.

By the way, what injectors does the Innova have? I saw an Innova of a known person with an injector and pump failure near my residence.

Take the case of Swift

• Poor cabin space design ( inspite of occupying the longest portion on road )
• Poor boot space
• Cheaper injectors
• Poor ergonomics
• The turbo failings ( I hope, Maruti has solved this )
• Poor brakes
• High maintenance costs

But, it comes with a fantastic engine with good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors. Add to that the Maruti support and you have a winner on your hand because that is all what the segment asks for.

You go on to say that Swift diesel engine has a solenoid engine that is not as reliable as the piezo electric injectors and on the other hand accept that it has a fantastic engine, good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors, after sales support and it is a winner. Then why is Toyota hesitating to give all these along with the good fundamentals that the Etios boasts about.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Wrong to expect a company to use the same plastics on a 7lakhs and 15 lakhs car. Give me specifics. If you say, the plastics used are X grade on Etios and Y grade on Swift, I agree. I've seen several critics of the old model crib about the facelift that plastic quality has improved a lot whereas in reality, Toyota just changed the colours!

But its definitely right to ask to provide better quality for the asking price which is already higher than what it is supposed to be, at least as per me and the market out there thinks that way too atleast from the sales figure.

The fact is that it performs the functions which it is supposed to perform beautifully. Even the aesthetics has become decent post facelift.

I am yet to look at the new facelift in person. I will be able to comment only after that. Till then I will reserve my comments.

I've already countered that question. My point was that @vid says Toyota is selling Etios/Liva on a loss inspite of manufacturing 7,000 units per month. Ford sells a similar number, sells at a lower cost and still makes profit ( according to @vid )

So, if this is true, either

Toyota is using too costly materials inside Etios or
Toyota is incapable of sourcing materials cheap.

I'm curious to know what he thinks is the reason.

I am sure he would definitely answer your question.

Without rate of return, an automobile company won't survive nor will it be able to provide high quality support.

Ford India has never ever been able to make profit in India so is GM. The only non-Indian companies making profit in India are Toyota and Hyundai.
They also happen to be the best in terms of support for non-Indian automobile companies. You buy a car from them, you can be assured that they will be there to support you even after 10 years.
Same is the case with Maruti as well.

No company will have its operations to make a loss, if a loss happens it happens to various factors not just the product in itself.

Why Toyota is making profits is not solely because of Etios + Liva, their cash cow is Innova and Fortuner with a wee bit of contribution from the Etios twins.

Same is the case with resale as well. Resale with Liva was not great to start with. But, it has improved a lot now especially in Kerala.

1 year old Liva GD bought for 6.1 OTR giving 5.65 lakhs from Toyota, Kozhikode and 5.9 Lakhs from 3rd party is decent resale.

One off case does not become the norm for the industry. If that was the case, it should have been similar every where else in the country.

It's not rocket science to produce durable plastics. Even my old zen's plastics lasted its 10 years. We are just giving too much importance to non-critical and aesthetic elements of a car.

The aesthetics may not be critical or of importance to you, but it may not be same to everybody else and it reflects in the sales numbers.

As I've mentioned several times already, they underestimated the requirements with regards to aesthetics and NVH. Nothing else. But, these 2 factors were too critical in the segment.

You tend to agree that the market treats this as critical and Toyota chose to ignore it conveniently. The result is there for everyone to see.

Of course, it's costlier and in most cases, the utility negates the extra cost. You get a smoother acceleration control, and higher life. I'm glad Toyota didn't think much about cost when they added these injectors.

Why Toyota would be bothered unless its a warranty replacement. As a customer I would definitely be worried about the fat replacement bills for the piezo electric injectors.

That's not what a Japanese car is designed for. It's designed for peppiness, easy drivability, long lasting parts ( due to lighter design ), and easy maintenance. In-spite of its ultra light body, it still, it gives adequate comfort, speed masking and offers neutral handling.

Agreed that Japanese design is for practicality. But if you are telling me that Etios and Liva have speed masking capabilities, all I can say, whatever facts provided to convince you that the Etios/Liva does fall short in this department as compared to Polo/Fabia/Punto will be futile.

For people, who need heavy and comfortable ride at the cost of advantages of a lighter design, they should look for European/American designs.

Both has their advantages and disadvantages. I prefer the lighter designs any day.

+1, both have their advantages and disadvantages. But the lighter design need not be the best always.

End of the day, what effect does it have on ergonomics. That's all what matters. The center console tilted towards the driver is an ergonomic design ( even though it doesn't look great )

Again to each to his own.

This sounds quite amusing, because I've driven both these vehicles extensively. Liva is definitely more peppier and drivable.

If you want me to prove it with stats, here it comes.
Torque per ton of Liva - 173.46 Nm / ton ( from 1800 to 2400 rpm )
Torque per ton of Figo - 146.79 Nm/ton ( @ 2000 rpms )

If you say that both feels the same, then I've nothing more to say.

You are conveniently forgetting the fact that most modern common rail engines produce 70-80% of the torque above a few 100 rpms from the idle. The 1.4 D4D will be no different. So I dont see anything too special with the dated engine.

Post the service bills for every periodic service ( if possible ). I'll post the same for an Etios Diesel which has done 1,70,000 kms. I'll be meeting this person soon.

The durability was in question, not the maintenance cost. The maintenance cost is lower in Toyota, but the repair/accident repair cost are cheaper with the Linea. A quick glance at the part prices and the labour prices will reveal it.

Progressive acceleration ( instead of jerky ). This could be one of the reason why it gets a better ARAI rating inspite of using a larger engine.

If you are still hanging on to this fact is just because of the injectors I have nothing more to say.

For me, to be able to drive at high speeds, I need 2 things.

• Excellent braking that doesn't have drama
• Good high speed stability.

Etios has both. If I go for Rally, I would ask for the best in class high speed stability because I need to take even tight corners at high speeds. But, for highway cruising on express highways, braking is certainly the most important factor and Etios/Liva just rocks.

So are all other cars that offer better high speed handling, braking and build quality fit only for rallys? Etios/Liva twins have good brakes, but there are other cars with better brakes out there which is very conveniently ignored and only swift is brought in comparison.

The sweep and the lack of distortion at the center of the screen during each half wipe. It's a huge clean sweep. The same technology is used even in the certain models of Yaris by Toyota.

So why is that many other manufacturers are wasting money on dual wipers including the likes of Maruti to BMW? There has to be some benefit right?

Firstly I would really appreciate if Toyota at least provides better quality wiper blades.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

As per this logic, most cars are not suitable on Indian Roads.

Wrong, get the numbers right before making loose statements.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Its fine with us too if you do not want to agree with our observations. People have different opinions so be it. The quotes you mentioned in the earlier posts were inconclusive.

If the logic that I quoted doesn't make sense to you, I give up. I tried to make it as simple to understand as possible. I asked @vid to give one advantage for the design of indicator knobs on the left and he was unable to do so.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

What works for Toyota might not exactly work in the Indian market. They need to adapt, else with the list of positives the Etios twin would have been a run away success, which is not the case.

They do adapt, but it's through a slow and steady process. They should have already understood how much Indian customers care about aesthetics. And I'm sure they will address these on their next release - possible the Dear Qin

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Again durability from Toyota is taking it too far in the modern era context. There are many others cars in the segment which is at least at par if not better than the Etios/Liva durability.

Time will tell that. But, I'll put my money on a Toyota any day, if I want to use a car for 10 years hassle free, and when I buy a car, that is what I expect. Nothing less.
This might not be the requirement of the market. But, this has been what Toyota stands for all over the world. And I wouldn't want them to change that ideology for the peculiarities of Indian market.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Which other car which did not have the piezo electric injectors had jerky feeling when you drove them? Quite eager to know this and how this test was done and under what load conditions.

The Swift DDiS acceleration and deceleration is not smooth/progressive
Again, going by the history of how you accepts other logical explanations, I do not want to push this any further.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

I for one atleast did not debate that Toyota is compromising on critical components. What is causing the dissatisfaction in me is the disproportionate asking for the engineering that is on offer. If you still could not get it, I would leave it at that.

They gave the

2nd best peppiness ( just < 5% less peppier than the segment topper ) with
2nd best drivability ( behind renault engine )
2nd best cabin space ( behind Manza )
best braking ( yeah, I truely mean this and I have not just compared the Swift alone )
best boot space
in GTO's words - "a suspension that has got the sweet spot between comfort and handling" on such a light weight car.
the cheapest maintenance cost with some of the most durable components used like the ever lasting fuel filters and coolants.
arguably the best ergonomics
Provided ABS and airbags ( optional ) even in the cheapest variants
one of the best after sales Support in the industry

I'm not sure where the disproportionate asking is.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

I still cannot see the reason as to why is it wrong when car with a boot is considered as sedan whether it is within 4 m or beyond 4m. But that does not make sense to classify all cars under 4m as hatches. People dont believe Dzire is a sedan because Maruti said it is, but the market perceived it is and it clicked. Neighter you or me can change this fact.

What's the extra utility of a sedan ? It's the boot space. The Ford Figo has a boot space of 284 liters. The Dzire has a boot space of 316 L. If 32l extra changes a hatch into a sedan, then I will allow you to think so. Sorry, I don't fall in that category.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Indian automobile market is spread across many other states and cities apart from Kerala and Kochi. Good that people are used to Toyota and are buying Toyota cars, but that does not mean whatever is on offer from Toyota is the best. If you still want to press home the point that what Toyota is offering is the best, then whatever discussion is being had is futile.

No, I'm not saying Toyota is the best in all criteria. What I'm trying to say is that they have certain values which they have put into Etios design. People who understand those values will go for the Etios. For me, practicality, utility and durability is of top most priority and hence Toyota makes sense. For another person, another brand might make sense. In Kerala, there are a lot of people who have experience with the cheapest Toyotas. While they don't look attractive, they are build to last a long time offering hassle free experience not to forget the cheap cost of maintenance.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Firstly, its nice to know that you are safe and sound with the ABS kicking in and saved the day for you.

Swift is not the only car out there in the market. Start comparing the braking abilities with the i20, Figo, Fabia, Punto, Polo and then rank it. Just comparing it with the car that is having the least of the capabilities does not prove anything. Also, braking matters not just on highway, but every road that you drive on.

It's better than the Figo, Punto, Polo, Swift. Infact, it's one of the best brakes I've ever come across. Doesn't bite hard so as to lock the wheels ( even without the ABS ) but at the same time, very effective in bringing the vehicle to a stop without any drama.
With i20 and Fabia, I haven't driven it extensively. So, I do not want to comment. Regardless, they are from one class up.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

I would be very happy to know the market size to see the how much the actual ranking means.

South African automobile market involves 50,000 cars per month in total for domestic use and around 15,000 per month in exports.
There, the Etios competes with 50 different cars perceived to be of much better looks.
The Etios opened on number 7 position, progressed to 4, stabilized there in 2012, and in 2013, it's fluctuating between 2 and 3 positions.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

True, that whole of Kerala sees more rain in a season that what Bangalore sees throughout the year. But, I guess the Liva I had repeated failures with the wiper blades unable to clean the windshield effectively. May I got a lemon wiper both the times.

I'm not sure why this happened. Regardless, I always remove the wiper contact from the glass whenever I park the car in the sun. It's something that even the manufacturers do. I would recommend that you do this whichever car you use. Heat hardens the rubber. And a hard rubber will be ineffective in cleaning properly.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Fantastic that a giant company like Toyota is having to go back to drawing board so many times to get Etios matured at the cost of the initial customers who feel let down with each iteration trying to better something than the previous version. One positive is that there is one new version out once a year.

I don't understand what is wrong with that. On the contrary, I would thank Toyota for addressing all customer concerns so fast.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

True, a personal choice does not imply the choice to hold true for everybody. If I go on to say, I was at home driving a truck due to ergonomics and the truck is the best ergonomic vehicle out there makes no sense.

Doesn't deserve a reply. Hence ignoring.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

I get the point that you are trying to drag FIAT in to the conversation, but I am not going to fall for it.

I had no extra intentions there. If you felt so, I apologize.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Its amazing to read how the piezo electric injectors that Toyota is providing in the decade old engine has brought about a sea of change in automobile industry at least in India and all other manufacturers are clinging on to the failed technology.

I just compared it to Swift, and people started taking this up. I'm not sure why. The intention was just to bring in the point that Toyota did use costlier components wherever necessary.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Its perfectly with me too, if you perceive that all cars without piezo electric injectors fail and turbos go bust. To each to his own.

Again wrong interpretation. I mentioned that the things that fail most frequently on a Diesel engine are injectors and turbo. There is no mutual relation between either of them.

What I meant was that it makes sense to make these components with better quality.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

By the way, what injectors does the Innova have? I saw an Innova of a known person with an injector and pump failure near my residence.

It does use piezo. If it failed, it's sad. But, that's not the norm.
If you can share the registration number of the car, I can get information regarding why it failed and whether there was any other factors involved.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

You go on to say that Swift diesel engine has a solenoid engine that is not as reliable as the piezo electric injectors and on the other hand accept that it has a fantastic engine, good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors, after sales support and it is a winner. Then why is Toyota hesitating to give all these along with the good fundamentals that the Etios boasts about.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

fantastic engine - the core engine and power output.
With regards to injectors, it leads to progressive acceleration and durability. Both are different.

If Etios was not released, I would have bought the Swift because, I do not have a better choice. Figo is a well designed car but it lacks power so badly.

With the Etios, I got an engine like the Swift ( 4% lesser peppiness as opposed to 15% less peppy in the case of Figo )
Better drivability than both the Swift and Figo ( Renault rocks here )
Space like the Manza/Vista ( not as much, but very close )
Best brakes
Support like the Marutis &
Maintenance cost that is in a league on its own.
Well thought out ergonomic designs ( the aircon vent placements, the steering wheel design, driving position, air cooled huge glove box, the lowered humps on rear, and the light overall design. You don't need to flex your muscles for anything on an Etios )

It combines the good qualities of several brands ( but at the cost of NVH and aesthetics )

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

No company will have its operations to make a loss, if a loss happens it happens to various factors not just the product in itself.

Pricing does have a major influence. You reduce the price than what you can survive with. You will surely make losses. If my memory is correct, Ford India has never ever made profit after entering the Indian market.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

One off case does not become the norm for the industry. If that was the case, it should have been similar every where else in the country.

I'm not sure about all over the country. What I know are

• It got good resale in Kerala
• @subratasenn said it's the same in Bengal as well
• There are 0 Liva Diesels for sale on Toyota U-Trust

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

The aesthetics may not be critical or of importance to you, but it may not be same to everybody else and it reflects in the sales numbers.

You tend to agree that the market treats this as critical and Toyota chose to ignore it conveniently. The result is there for everyone to see.

I do agree to that. If Toyota could have boosted the interiors and charged a premium for that, I would have been surely happier.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Why Toyota would be bothered unless its a warranty replacement. As a customer I would definitely be worried about the fat replacement bills for the piezo electric injectors.

The same applies for eORVMs as well. Will you make the same argument there ? For better technology, it will surely cost higher.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Agreed that Japanese design is for practicality. But if you are telling me that Etios and Liva have speed masking capabilities, all I can say, whatever facts provided to convince you that the Etios/Liva does fall short in this department as compared to Polo/Fabia/Punto will be futile.

All these cars mentioned are heavy European designs and speed masking ability is their forte. I never disagree to that. The beauty of the Etios design is its ability to do so inspite of being feather light.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

+1, both have their advantages and disadvantages. But the lighter design need not be the best always.

As I mentioned, it's an individual's choice. There is a market for both.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

You are conveniently forgetting the fact that most modern common rail engines produce 70-80% of the torque above a few 100 rpms from the idle. The 1.4 D4D will be no different. So I dont see anything too special with the dated engine.

The D-4D combines peppiness, drivability and a unique flat peak torque which is a delight to use for quick overtaking. The flatness is not as wide as in a Corolla or an Innova, but still 600 rpm range is quite substantial.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

The durability was in question, not the maintenance cost. The maintenance cost is lower in Toyota, but the repair/accident repair cost are cheaper with the Linea. A quick glance at the part prices and the labour prices will reveal it.

But, that's already covered under insurance. Anyway, for information sake, do you mind posting the cost of linea parts for the following ?

Bonnet
Front Bumper
Head Lamps
Fog Lamps
Front Indicators
ORVMs
Radiator

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

So why is that many other manufacturers are wasting money on dual wipers including the likes of Maruti to BMW? There has to be some benefit right?

A Maruti 800 uses dual wipers. But, Mercedez Benz used a mono wiper ( this was one of a kind and one of the best wipers ever made ). so, did Toyota Yaris. Does this mean anything ? It doesn't. Both are different technology.

[shivasuma]

Originally Posted by amalji

it comes with a fantastic engine with good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors. Add to that the Maruti support and you have a winner on your hand because that is all what the segment asks for.

Isn' this what Toyota should have done in the first place? Give what the market wants rather than what it thinks the market should want.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by amalji

Wrong, get the numbers right before making loose statements.

Buddy what made you bring the pedal into picture when we were debating placement of the indicator stalks. A loose comparison is bound to get a loose inference. Bring up the tone to compel somebody to your views only is not a good idea.

They do adapt, but it's through a slow and steady process. They should have already understood how much Indian customers care about aesthetics. And I'm sure they will address these on their next release - possible the Dear Qin

Steady process is good but at whose cost. Is Toyota doing all the changes free of cost to the cars that were already sold and running on the road?

Time will tell that. But, I'll put my money on a Toyota any day, if I want to use a car for 10 years hassle free, and when I buy a car, that is what I expect. Nothing less. This might not be the requirement of the market. But, this has been what Toyota stands for all over the world. And I wouldn't want them to change that ideology for the peculiarities of Indian market.

Let Toyota be that in the very competitive segment, they will end up seeing such sales number year after year.

The Swift DDiS acceleration and deceleration is not smooth/progressive Again, going by the history of how you accepts other logical explanations, I do not want to push this any further.

The number of cars running the MJD simply outnumbers the 1.4 D4D and there should be a reason to it. One cannot simply ignore the fact that 20K+ people who buy it every month, are really stupid enough to plonk their money.

They gave the

2nd best peppiness ( just < 5% less peppier than the segment topper ) with
2nd best drivability ( behind renault engine )
2nd best cabin space ( behind Manza )
best braking ( yeah, I truely mean this and I have not just compared the Swift alone )
best boot space
in GTO's words - "a suspension that has got the sweet spot between comfort and handling" on such a light weight car.
the cheapest maintenance cost with some of the most durable components used like the ever lasting fuel filters and coolants.
arguably the best ergonomics
Provided ABS and airbags ( optional ) even in the cheapest variants
one of the best after sales Support in the industry

I'm not sure where the disproportionate asking is.

What convinces you need not convince everybody else in the market. That's the reason there are many other cars even in the same segment.

What's the extra utility of a sedan ? It's the boot space. The Ford Figo has a boot space of 284 liters. The Dzire has a boot space of 316 L. If 32l extra changes a hatch into a sedan, then I will allow you to think so. Sorry, I don't fall in that category.

You are free to compare any car with Figo or with any other car.

It's better than the Figo, Punto, Polo, Swift. Infact, it's one of the best brakes I've ever come across. Doesn't bite hard so as to lock the wheels ( even without the ABS ) but at the same time, very effective in bringing the vehicle to a stop without any drama. With i20 and Fabia, I haven't driven it extensively. So, I do not want to comment. Regardless, they are from one class up.

Surprising that you find Etios brakes better than Punto, Figo and Polo. Not worth arguing.

South African automobile market involves 50,000 cars per month in total for domestic use and around 15,000 per month in exports. There, the Etios competes with 50 different cars perceived to be of much better looks.
The Etios opened on number 7 position, progressed to 4, stabilized there in 2012, and in 2013, it's fluctuating between 2 and 3 positions.

How much of the Etios numbers in South Africa are imported from India and locally manufactured/assembled.

I'm not sure why this happened. Regardless, I always remove the wiper contact from the glass whenever I park the car in the sun. It's something that even the manufacturers do. I would recommend that you do this whichever car you use. Heat hardens the rubber. And a hard rubber will be ineffective in cleaning properly.

I religiously follow this procedure whether be it the good old Palio, Linea, Alto or the Verna. The current cars in the family. So there was nothing exceptional about the wiper or was I negligent in knowing how to maintain a Wiper.

I don't understand what is wrong with that. On the contrary, I would thank Toyota for addressing all customer concerns so fast.

Nothing wrong in addressing the shortfalls but they wanted to test water at the cost initial customers?

Doesn't deserve a reply. Hence ignoring.

Some of your comparisons does not deserve a reply too.

I had no extra intentions there. If you felt so, I apologize.

Why I said this is, the discussion will deviate to something else when FIAT comes into picture with for and against replies.

I just compared it to Swift, and people started taking this up. I'm not sure why. The intention was just to bring in the point that Toyota did use costlier components wherever necessary.

Swift is not the only car out there. Enough has already been said on this. If one tends to forget it for convenience it would end up in a meaningless debate.

It does use piezo. If it failed, it's sad. But, that's not the norm.
If you can share the registration number of the car, I can get information regarding why it failed and whether there was any other factors involved.

I cannot disclose the registration number without the consent of the person. I don't know if he would be keen to disclose it on the open forum for somebody else to investigate it.

fantastic engine - the core engine and power output.
With regards to injectors, it leads to progressive acceleration and durability. Both are different.

Its been told time and again the MJDs are not falling apart 1 lakh kms, they tend be as durable as the 1.4 D4D even with a higher state of tune.

I do agree to that. If Toyota could have boosted the interiors and charged a premium for that, I would have been surely happier.

A common ground arrived on one aspect at least.

All these cars mentioned are heavy European designs and speed masking ability is their forte. I never disagree to that. The beauty of the Etios design is its ability to do so inspite of being feather light.

Good that it masks speed to you, but to me it doesn't. Lets agree to disagree here.

As I mentioned, it's an individual's choice. There is a market for both.

True.

But, that's already covered under insurance. Anyway, for information sake, do you mind posting the cost of Linea parts for the following ?

Bonnet
Front Bumper
Head Lamps
Fog Lamps
Front Indicators
ORVMs
Radiator

What if your insurance claim is denied for whatever reasons. As for part prices, I will try and get the prices when I head for the 15,000 service.

A Maruti 800 uses dual wipers. But, Mercedes Benz used a mono wiper ( this was one of a kind and one of the best wipers ever made ). so, did Toyota Yaris. Does this mean anything ? It doesn't. Both are different technology.

Exactly it doesn't make it any better with the single wiper. So lets leave it at that.

PS: To me, it does not cut whatever Toyota does to the Etios and Liva unless they price it correctly for whatever exceptional engineering it offers. Out of this thread for good. No point arguing over irrational views.

[dkaile]

I would request my learned friends to kindly take it easy on this thread as it is going nowhere with such longish rebuttal posts. Kindly agree to disagree.

[swiftdiesel]

Originally Posted by amalji

Take the case of Swift

• Poor cabin space design ( inspite of occupying the longest portion on road )
• Poor boot space
• Cheaper injectors
• Poor ergonomics
• The turbo failings ( I hope, Maruti has solved this )
• Poor brakes
• High maintenance costs

But, it comes with a fantastic engine with good handling, sporty exterior and plush interiors. Add to that the Maruti support and you have a winner on your hand because that is all what the segment asks for.

My dear friend,

Some of the facts you state here about the Swift just amuse me. I just wonder if you've driven the all new Swift or if you've just let you Toyota fanboyism take over. Given the number of posts and time you've spent defending Toyota's cars, Toyota should have gifted you with another Liva. Just kidding!

Anyway, I wanted to highlight a few points that are glaringly misrepresented in your posts. I understand you love your Etios and Liva very much and of course who doesn't! I love my car too! But our love for our own cars/brands shouldn't start influencing our rational thinking when talking about cars/brands that we don't like. Otherwise, any discussion becomes meaningless.

Cheaper Injectors? Can you substantiate that claim with some evidence? In what way are they cheap? Can you educate me? FYI, there are more cars in India using the 1.3 Multijet (with the cheap injectors you mention) than cars running on the 1.4 D-4D. Can you post some statistics on the failure rate of injectors on all these cars? I mean Swift, Dzire, Ertiga, Manza, Vista and the list goes on! Even if there were one or two cases, the ratio of multijet engines vs ratio of 1.4 D-4D engines is disproportionate.

And in what way the D-4D's injectors are ground-breaking? You keep harping about piezo-electric injectors. They're new tech electrically actuated injection. Solenoid or piezo electric is not as bad as engines having SOHC and DOHC. FYI, Swift uses injectors manufactured by Bosch. Injectors are outsourced along with the common rail system. Delphi and Bosch and Denso are the largest suppliers. Of course, who else but Denso to supply for Toyota engines.

I have my respect for Toyota engines. I have an equal respect for Multijets. They're cheap to maintain, reliable. But Toyota should wake up from their slumber and realise the rest of manufacturers have caught up and gone further ahead. Reliability is no more Toyota's USP. There are so many others who can lay claim to that title. And you show me cars with Multijet failure I can show you cars with D-4D failure. End of the day that doesn't prove a thing because engines are synchronised mechanical parts and they fail.

In some other post, you've mentioned 1.3 multijet is a small engine with a big turbo and 1.4 D-4D is a large engine with a smaller turbo. You seem to be the authority on these subjects so please educate me here.

What's the size of Swift turbo? Who manufactures them? What's the size of Etios' turbo?

Ok, you call 1.4D-4D engine is a larger engine than 1.3 DDiS. Let's look at some specs. BTW, it's not just the size that matters but how they breathe and how much they output. A DOHC can breathe better anyday than a SOHC. Moreover, 1.3 multijet has been upscaled to produce even 105 bhp and multijet 2 has even higher compression and injection cycles to meet Euro 5 norms. I won't be surprised if you still sing your praises for 1.4 D4D.

Without turbo, these are the actual displacements.
1.4 D4D - 1364 cc
1.3 DDiS - 1248 cc

The difference in cc? 116 extra cc. In your books that constitutes as a large engine? Very amusing mate. Renault's 1.5 DCi is 1461 cc and Ford's 1.4 TDCi is 1398 cc for relative comparison.

You say Swift's brakes are poor. Agreed on the VDi version. Even Liva doesn't come with something cheap as a tachometer on the lower spec, it's not just Maruti you see. But before you make a blanket statement, have you driven the new ZDi with ABS? I tell you mate, if you've seriously driven it and panic braked on a situation, you wouldn't be saying this. I won't be surprised if you still argue Swift's brakes are poorer than Liva. But what you believe does not alter true facts. By saying that, I'm in no way saying Liva's brakes are poor or great, because I haven't driven it. Just because I like Swift I don't have to put down Liva.

Turbo failures? Ok you don't have to show me the thread from the technical section, I've seen it. FYI, turbos fail. Not just multijet, any engine for that matter. This is a heavily stressed component working under extreme temperatures. Approximately 20,000 Swifts are sold in a month for the past 5 years. Out of that a huge chunk are diesels. Going by the number of Swifts on the road, can you show me some data that correlates with the number of Swifts with turbo failures? No, don't show me one Swift here and 3 Swifts there. That doesn't cut it with the sheer number of diesel Swifts on the road.

If you can show me a data of at least 1000 Swifts at any given time with turbo issues, I will speak directly to higher ups in MSIL and get concrete info about it. My friend's Etios 1.5 petrol was hit by a biker from behind (at slow speed, mind you0 and the complete bumper fell down. Before you ask me for the registration number, sorry, I'm not at liberty to share. Ok, now I start listing that as one of the negatives of Etios. Etios - bumper that falls off. Is that a right assumption? Wrong! There are a 1000 more Etios running with good bumpers after an accident.

I have no problem calling a spade, a spade without my fanboyism rule over. Yes, I love my Ertiga but that doesn't entitle me to push down every other car in the market. I don't have to show my car as the best at the cost of trashing every other car out there. If you didn't know, when it comes to Toyota Liva/ETtios, I always follow your posts closely because I consider you to be someone really informative and reliable with authentic info about the cars. But after reading your last few posts in this thread, I really question my assumption.

One small suggestion: You've bought your ETios and Liva. Just enjoy it mate. You don't have to prove that you've made the right decision to start enjoying it. End of the day, it's your money that you've put on it because you loved it. If I love Etios then I'll be amalji and if you loved Ertiga/Swift, you'll be swiftdiesel right? To each his own and let's enjoy our possessions. Your signature says, in love with Etios. I like it! Go ahead and have a million miles of happy smiles in your Etiios.

[subratasenn]

Originally Posted by dkaile

I would request my learned friends to kindly take it easy on this thread as it is going nowhere with such longish rebuttal posts. Kindly agree to disagree.

+1. Amalji and I love our Etios/Liva. Nkrishnap and Vid do not agree with our perceptions. Period.

Here is some good news:

I just got a call from Topsel Toyota in Kolkata. They confirmed that any old Etios/Liva owner can change the rear shock absorber and certain parts of rear suspension with the newer assembly at no extra cost (within warranty).

Previously this facility was being given to the front suspensions only. I never had any issue with my rear suspensions, but found many people complaining about them. This is good news. I might also go for a change as replacements are coming for free!

Since the call came, I had the opportunity to have a long discussion with the GM servicing over phone regarding the noise level issue with older cars. In the new model Liva/Etios the NVH is nicely controlled within the cabin.

According to him, the reasons for low NVH in the new model are

1. Changing the engine mounts to hydraulic mounts. (He claims that Etios/Liva are the only cars on Indian roads in this segment to have them).
2. Addition of sound dampening material in the engine bay.
3. Addition of sound dampening material inside the dashboard assembly.
4. Addition of sound dampening material inside the door panels.

Changeover to hydraulic mount is possible, though he was not sure whether I'll have to pay for it or it will be done at Toyota's expense (the way they are changing the suspension). The cost of hydraulic mount is approximately Rs 6000/-

Regarding retro fitting the sound dampening material, the person was unsure. He promised to get back to me on Monday.

[nkrishnap]

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Here is some good news:

I just got a call from Topsel Toyota in Kolkata. They confirmed that any old Etios/Liva owner can change the rear shock absorber and certain parts of rear suspension with the newer assembly at no extra cost (within warranty).

I guess the reason for change is the sag when heavily loaded. This should do good getting rid of the sag with new suspension at the rear.

Since the call came, I had the opportunity to have a long discussion with the GM servicing over phone regarding the noise level issue with older cars. In the new model Liva/Etios the NVH is nicely controlled within the cabin.

According to him, the reasons for low NVH in the new model are

1. Changing the engine mounts to hydraulic mounts. (He claims that Etios/Liva are the only cars on Indian roads in this segment to have them).
2. Addition of sound dampening material in the engine bay.
3. Addition of sound dampening material inside the dashboard assembly.
4. Addition of sound dampening material inside the door panels.

Point 1, 2 and 4 should be easy to be done. But the sound dampening material inside the dashboard is a bit tricky as it can lead to rattles over a period of time.

Changeover to hydraulic mount is possible, though he was not sure whether I'll have to pay for it or it will be done at Toyota's expense (the way they are changing the suspension). The cost of hydraulic mount is approximately Rs 6000/-

This again should be an easy fix for the Toyota after sales and the cost isn;t too high either.

[amalji]

No more quoting. I give up. I do not want to create more mis-interpretation.

@swiftDiesel - Just wanted to clarify with you, because I did find your post and intention sensible not just in this thread but in general.

1) I agree that I did go a bit overboard. It was triggered by a few loose statements from a member. I do not want to pinpoint it right now. I'll just forget it
2) Regarding Swift Engine, I always said, it's a fantastic engine, never did I say it's less in power. At the same time, a fantastic engine doesn't necessarily give the best driving characteristics in all conditions. And that's the reason why I placed Liva D-4D 2nd below Swift in outright power, while I placed it 2nd below Renault in drivability. The engine size and turbo size does have an influence on these characteristics. Does in no way mean that Liva is superior over the Swift engine. Both gives different characteristics and performs better in different scenarios.
3) I've conceded in several of my posts that I would have gone for the Swift, if Etios was not released ( inspite of the fact that I'm unimpressed with the design effort Maruti has put in to efficiently use space )
4) Ford is a fantastic VFM buy any day and I'll recommend it to anyone, who is not that particular about outright power. Even my closest friends owns it based on my recommendation.
5) With braking, I still consider the Liva as the best in class ( even better than the Swift ZDi )

The only thing, I wanted to tell you is that it's not fanboyism but a reaction to a few loose statements. If you check the Ertiga thread, I was the first person to acknowledge that I got a
"did I make the correct choice?" feeling
the first time, when I saw the Ertiga in real. I've posted in the same thread with pictures on why I consider the Ertiga as a fantastic design.

And even if you analyze the markets, the Etios ( & Sunny ) sales numbers started falling right after the release of Ertiga. That's from where Ertiga carved out the numbers ( not from Innova customers ).

The same feeling is with Amaze. Even though I haven't seen it in real, from what little I've heard of it, I'm a fan of its design already. And I'll surely run to Honda showroom the first day, it's released.

Regarding piezo electrics, I take back all I said. because the discussion seems to get misdirected with it. Peace.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Here is some good news:

I just got a call from Topsel Toyota in Kolkata. They confirmed that any old Etios/Liva owner can change the rear shock absorber and certain parts of rear suspension with the newer assembly at no extra cost (within warranty).

Previously this facility was being given to the front suspensions only. I never had any issue with my rear suspensions, but found many people complaining about them. This is good news. I might also go for a change as replacements are coming for free!

I would recommend that you wait and try out a few Etios with the new suspensions before going for this change. The older suspensions were soft and gives good comfort for rear passengers. It doesn't have the thud sound as well. Only issue is sagging. That is relevant only if you travel with 5 adults and luggage and have bad roads near your locality.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

According to him, the reasons for low NVH in the new model are

1. Changing the engine mounts to hydraulic mounts. (He claims that Etios/Liva are the only cars on Indian roads in this segment to have them).

This is wrong info. All cars in the segment uses hydraulic mounts.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

2. Addition of sound dampening material in the engine bay.

This is the toughest mod because it's not an extra part, but the old part was extended to cover the whole of the engine bay. So, if we need to put in the new damping design, we'll have to bring down a whole lot of parts making connections through the engine firewall.

Another possible option is to buy the new part, cut it so that it compliments with the older design and find a way to fit it solidly. Alternate dampening materials on the same uncovered parts on the old model is an option as well.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

3. Addition of sound dampening material inside the dashboard assembly.

This should be possible.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

4. Addition of sound dampening material inside the door panels.

This should be possible as well.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Changeover to hydraulic mount is possible, though he was not sure whether I'll have to pay for it or it will be done at Toyota's expense (the way they are changing the suspension). The cost of hydraulic mount is approximately Rs 6000/-

Toyota doesn't encourage dealers to perform this mod on older models.
But, logically, this should be easily possible.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Regarding retro fitting the sound dampening material, the person was unsure. He promised to get back to me on Monday.

Eagerly waiting for this.

Originally Posted by subratasenn

Admins: Sorry for the back to back posts. Couldn't merge with the previous post as the edit time was over.

You can use the "report posts" feature - the one with ! sign for reporting the 2nd post. It will be merged that way.

[drsingh]

I love this thread .Lots of intense debating.

Guys keep this to the machines and not the men..

I have to link this.seems appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQRYcTznKQ

Another link amalji would like:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ios-bric-spec/