[classic86]

Guys!!! Yesterday night after riding the bike hard in the city for an hour or so and after coming home, I noticed there is a weird sound of some loose metal in the engine.. Its tiny but you can hear the difference when you observe it closely..

So this morning I tried recording the sound during the cold start and didn't find that noise.. So probably nothing to worry about.. But can you guys just check and tell if the sound is normal. I don't have another C5 to compare. Here is the clip.

http://rapidshare.com/files/447307884/Memo.m4a

And my mileage right now is 1275 kms. So was just trying to check the oil level by keeping the engine warm for 2 minutes. But the screen is just black. Am I doing it wrong?

[desideep]

was it a sound like tick tick tick when you turned off the engine?

[nasirkaka]

@ randhawa:

Hey, i am interested in quick acceleration, hence rear sprocket witt more no. of teeth (is that right?). I am willing to compromise on the top speed. around 100-115 kmph should be ok for me, but mostly i ride in city and would love to have better low-end acceleration. Do share the cost implications of the upgrade and also will it have any negative impact on the engine/terrain?

Also, i wanted to ask if you have any information on the painting technique currently used at RE factory. What grade/make of paint they use, is the part baked after painting? whats the protective coat they use? is it baked after coating? Also, any information on their paint/clear coat and technique on the MATTE finish (militray green for export and desert to be launched) would be very very helpful. This is cos i am seriously thinking about changing the colour of my bike, and am looking at a similar FINISH as their militray green but i will go for a different colour. I need the info so as to communicate to the painter about my requirement, process, and their capability. Thanks in advance!!

[Randhawa]

@Achint- Difference of 15T to 16T between the Electra,Std UCE and C3 is because of the tyre size. C3 has 16T sprocket to compensate the decrease in tyre size from 19 to 18 at rear.

@Ricky- TBTS has a oil level window at the bottom of the RHS engine cover under the oil filter cover.

Regarding the oil level in your TB, I have no idea how much the non uce engine takes and how much is good or bad due to my lack of experience with these engine.

Personally you should not rev hard while idling. Your friends are having fun at your own cost. Revving hard on idle damages the bearing and engine. If your engine is drinking up oil then it could be due to worn out piston rings.

@Classic86- Do you want to hear the good news or bad news first? Please don't feel offended but your running in style is a very fine example of the consequences of bad running in. I bet you were doing above 90 and very high revs on your mission yesterday.

I heard the clip and know exactly what it is. To find out that particular noise, it took me more then 6 months to get to the cause and cure.

Can you make another clip while accelerating in gears? I just want to make sure it's what I am thinking. Also let me know if you hear the noise again after riding for a while and depressing the clutch make any difference to it. Observe carefully from the clutch housing side.


@Nasir- Generally it's considered safe to play around with only +- 1Teeth on front sprocket. Yes you are right, more teeth at rear means more power and reduced top end. If you go extreme with reduced no of teeth in front can cause bearing damage and increase wear of chain and sprocket. Puts lot of load on the engine too.

There are two ways of playing around with sprockets. Either you change the rear or front.

Different ways to get the results

1.Reduced no of teeth on front sprocket= more power, less top end
Increased no of teeth on rear sprocket= more power, less top end

2. Increase no of teeth on front sprocket= less power, increased top end.
Reduced no of teeth on rear sprocket= less power, increased top end.


Contradicting my own statement- No place left for increasing front sprocket size. Found out that Hitchcocks UK are offering 19T,20T sprocket for EFI. I still say there is no space for a bigger one after considering there is hardly 4mm gap between the chain and engine chamber. I have asked the same from them but no reply yet. Usually their reply is prompt.

Putting a bigger sprocket will reduce the safety margin and secondly we will gain nothing from it. Now you may ask why no gains.

Here is my explanation from experience. I feel the gearing on our C5 is tall and our bull does not make enough power across the whole RPM range. Earlier when I had tried hitting rev limit in all gears, till 125km/h I was unable to hit the limiter in 4th gear. So what does that tell us!

We need more power to go beyond 140. If we increase the front sprocket size then all we will get is a lazy bike with more comfortable cruising speed but even more reduced top end simply because our bike does not have that much juice to pull through.

Leaving the increase in front sprocket teeth aside because it's no good to us and we will not benefit from it. Lets stick with either reducing the front sprocket size or increase rear teeth.


Whats more practical and cost effective mod(front VS R sprocket)?


If you see cost wise then I'll say go for front sprocket.
Cost for a new OEM 15T,16T,17T,18T not more then Rs 365.

Only down side I can think of is not easy to change and its a messy job. Time consuming. For changing the front sprocket you need to remove the complete RHS cover by removing foot peg, kick, front exhaust down pipe, collecting engine oil and filling in again. Changing the cover gasket every time you remove it or you run a risk of oil leaking.

Increased rear sprocket teeth is more DIY thing. Need few spanners to undo the hub, put the replacement hub back on and you are done. But cost wise I don't know who much will it cost. Is USA they sell the machined hub which can have multiple sprockets of different size specially made for it. Cost is around 8k for a single drum with one sprocket if you get it from USA.

Once the sprocket is machined and adapted to take new sprocket then you can use sprockets of different sizes.

Cost of new rear sprocket is Rs 660 + cost of machining the sprocket and making a new sprocket. I have no figures yet to say how much it will cost. This is purely for helping out others and I have no interest in make any money out of it.

Regarding paint job, give me some time to inquire about it and I'll let you know.

[classic86]

Originally Posted by Randhawa

@Classic86- Do you want to hear the good news or bad news first? Please don't feel offended but your running in style is a very fine example of the consequences of bad running in. I bet you were doing above 90 and very high revs on your mission yesterday.

I heard the clip and know exactly what it is. To find out that particular noise, it took me more then 6 months to get to the cause and cure.

Can you make another clip while accelerating in gears? I just want to make sure it's what I am thinking. Also let me know if you hear the noise again after riding for a while and depressing the clutch make any difference to it. Observe carefully from the clutch housing side.

Nope! The maximum speed i reached till now was 75-80.. I said riding hard in the sense that i was accelerating fast through the gears.. Pardon me if my terms are not ideal..

So what's the good news? I'm assuming there is bad news since this sound could be from the clutch plates..

I will do the other clip by Monday.. But my major problem is false neutrals and that too from 3rd to 4th gear around 40 kmph.. Slightly above 40 is too much rev for 3rd gear and slightly below is too early for 4th.. Thats becoming a problem in the city traffic and when i encounter a false neutral, i either lug the engine in 4th or rev it more in 3rd.. Is it something to do with the driving style??

[ricky_1605]

[quote=Randhawa;2241282
@Ricky- TBTS has a oil level window at the bottom of the RHS engine cover under the oil filter cover.

Regarding the oil level in your TB, I have no idea how much the non uce engine takes and how much is good or bad due to my lack of experience with these engine.

Personally you should not rev hard while idling. Your friends are having fun at your own cost. Revving hard on idle damages the bearing and engine. If your engine is drinking up oil then it could be due to worn out piston rings.
[/quote]

Oh yes the oil level window.
Regarding the bearing, on idling my bike has the gifted tappet noise and a hollow sound mixed with it, which my mechanic said is from the bearing. I compared it with another TB and it had only tappet noise, mine is like something is running in a hollow chamber. He said engine has to be opened, of which i am really scared because no work has been done on the engine and its been 44k kms. Can you confirm if its from the bearing and is it safe to go for the repair? I can attach a audio clip if needed.

[nasirkaka]

Makes sense to fiddle with the front sprocket, except as you mentioned, its going to be messy job and with a gasket replacement. The benefits would be easily available sprocket, and may be cost.

So just to confirm, so C5 is got 18 teeth in the front sprocket. To get a better initial acceleration we would need to get a sprocket with 16/17 teeth.


We may also achieve the same by increasing the number of teeth in the rear sprocket. but that sounds bit complex and expensive.

to recap- we have OEM 38 teeth rear sprocket. How may tooth increase would made the desired difference?

Increased rear sprocket teeth is more DIY thing. Need few spanners to undo the hub, put the replacement hub back on and you are done. But cost wise I don't know who much will it cost. Is USA they sell the machined hub which can have multiple sprockets of different size specially made for it. Cost is around 8k for a single drum with one sprocket if you get it from USA.

Do we need to change the entire hub with sprocket? also old C5 with metal chain guard may have to do some jugaad to accommodate the larger sprocket. hmnn. all put together sounds complicated enough and expensive too compared to the front sprocket mod.
Just out of curiosity, will altering the front sprocket (from 18T to 17T) make the bike more jerky in 1/2 gear? will it create excessive loads on chain and the gears? any other negative implication in short/long run?

SMALL UPDATE: Finally gave the Goldie for chroming. Thump should be back by next week.

Regarding paint job, give me some time to inquire about it and I'll let you know.

Eagerly waiting. Spoke to one paint guy and he said he is not aware of any clear coat which is matte/satin finish. He always uses gloss. :(

[Randhawa]

@Classic86- For me riding hard means 1st gear 50, 2nd gear 85, 3rd gear 110, 4th gear 125 and so on.

Nope it's not the clutch plates clutch plates on our c5 are good for at least 30k with any riding style of yours. Get me another clip and I will tell you for sure. False neutral is to do with running in and your driving style. Usually false neutral keeps decreasing when you pass 500km so it might take some time to settle down plus you need to get adjusted to the bike as bike is not going to adjust according to your style. Don't lug your engine or else you will have a expensive rattly can by 10k. Get your clutch cable adjusted.

@Ricky-Analysing noises on bullets is never easy as it has inherited a lot of them. As I said earlier, I am no good with non UCE bullets. But hollow noise could be due to play in cam sleeves and not bearing. Just get the cams inspected first before you even think of touching the engine. I can pin point all the possible noises a UCE can make but non-UCE is not my ball game.

Only few people I know off can help you on Team-Bhp. Either Naren or JayParshant, booth of them seems to have done the disappearing act and not heard from them for a while. PM booth of them for a advice. Naren(@hexanerax) and Jay (@JayPrashant).

@Nasir-Yes, C5 has 18T on front sprocket. For better acceleration you can go with 15T, 16T,17T front sprocket.

Rear sprocket is actually far less complex but more expensive for sure. Any roadside mechanic can change it for you where as front sprocket can be changed only at RE workshop as no mechanic will have the tool to undo the front sprocket. Also not many RE workshop will have the cover gasket. It will cost you more then Rs200 to get the sprocket changed every time. For rear sprocket change it's too easy and not messy at all.

For the chain guard, you can just remove it or get the new plastic one. Its personal choice anyways and depends upon feasibility of DIY.

Yes rear sprocket has 38 teeth. 16T at front would equate to 41T at rear. You need to calculate the rpm range which gives you the required power at a certain sprocket ratio.

Best way would be to test ride the TBTS with 15T then UCE std/electra and finally C3 to get the feel of the ratios.


Just a example of sprocket Ratio you can expect. Something to work on if you want to get more technical. Gearing Commander: Motorcycle Speed, RPM, Chain & Sprockets Calculator

Sprocket Ratio





Hub is actually the middle part of the rim and where the brake pads fit is the sprocket. Its one piece. You would need to get the modified sprocket only once then just swap with the different sprocket teeth's.

If you want to do the hit & trial method then I would say buy the whole set i.e. 15T,16T,17T. Total cost 3x Rs 360 each. For Rs1080 you will get three sprockets and you can play around to what ever you feel works for you. Obviously a whole lot cheaper then playing with the rear sprocket.

Check out the final ratios you will get from the above chart. I don't think it will damage anything because UCE is running 15T to 18T sprocket and neither will it make it jerky.

I though you must have got the Goldie chromed by now!

I dont think anybody uses clear coat on matt finish paint otherwise it wont be matt finish any more But the paint job wont be cheap as apart from whatever it will cost you for the paint job, stickers on tank alone are 1k each. Classic have enough stickers to cost you couple of grands.

[classic86]

Originally Posted by desideep

was it a sound like tick tick tick when you turned off the engine?

No!! But i get that very rarely when i drive for less than 5 minutes..

[drrajasaravanan]

Hi
I had gone to check my waiting list as its the 3rd month since booking my classic 500. I expected it to have moved from 92 to atleast in the 60's. Guess what in the whole of the last 2 months the REB showroom took delivery of only 3 classic 500's and my waiting list has moved to 89. This is so frustrating. .
@randhawa : How easy is it to book a REB in chandigarh and moving it to Chennai.

[EssYouWe]

You can get a temporary registration in Chd. and drive it down to Chennai and register it in TN by paying the applicable road tax.
It is quite a bit of effort, but its your call.

Cheers

@Sanjeet:

You should stop playing with my head! Everytime I make my peace with my super slow Bull, you come up and stir it all by giving me a new alternative.

[Randhawa]

@Dr- You can book it over phone and deposit cash into their account without leaving Chennai. The trucker who brings in the new bikes from Chennai will ship the bike to you on its way back.

@Achint- Remember the time when you said your friends electra was faster in pickup compared to yours? He has few notches shorter then your bike

[classic86]

Originally Posted by Randhawa

@Classic86- Do you want to hear the good news or bad news first? Please don't feel offended but your running in style is a very fine example of the consequences of bad running in. I bet you were doing above 90 and very high revs on your mission yesterday.

I heard the clip and know exactly what it is. To find out that particular noise, it took me more then 6 months to get to the cause and cure.

Can you make another clip while accelerating in gears? I just want to make sure it's what I am thinking. Also let me know if you hear the noise again after riding for a while and depressing the clutch make any difference to it. Observe carefully from the clutch housing side.

Hey! I did a short run of 25 kms and recorded while accelerating through the gears and while depressing the clutch too. The 1st clip contains both of them but you can clearly hear only the acceleration. Somewhere 1/2 - 3/4 th of the timeline, I depressed the clutch but noticed nothing unusual.

http://rapidshare.com/files/447713327/Memo-1.m4a

I recorded one more clip after coming home during idling and couldn't hear anything weird from the clutch housing but that 'metal tapping' music, which we discussed earlier, was audible from the top of the engine.

http://rapidshare.com/files/447713915/Memo-2.m4a

The third thing I observed today was that the beat of the upswept is becoming more thumping with each day.. I thought may be I was lugging but I think that's not the case. The thump was more as if from a short bottle silencer. Any idea on this one too!!!

[Randhawa]

All is well with your bull. This I say to all who worry to much.When you will cross 5-7k and by then if you still have abnormal noises on your engine then you need to worry. Right now just get used to the noises and stop loosing sleep over it.


Coming down to the noise I heard in the clip you posted earlier and a tiny bit this time is due to heat. When piston expands more then the expansion of the barrel then you will have that noise you heard the first time described by you as metal hitting metal.

You heard it first time because you did a bit hard acceleration through the gears and you still have not completed running in. Riding in city does not allows the bike to cool more efficiently(stop-go traffic). The honing RE has used for the barrel takes some time to smoothen out but during that it causes more heat and its also due to the clearance between the barrel and oil rings on piston. I won't go in too much detail but in short its a piston noise issue and RE is supposedly working on it.

There is pros and cons due to inappropriate oil ring clearances on C5.

Cons
Oil consumption
Noise

Pros
No chance of piston seizing up, no matter how hard you will ride on a long stretch
Better lubrication of the barrel

For your next service make a observation if you can. After the oil change, don't ride the bike above 60 for as long as you can. Observe the oil colour which will be still as good as new. Now when you want to see the oil turned into black colour just squeeze throttle for a day and see the colour change.

If you don't avoid hard acceleration during running in then you have a chance for more wear and more noise. If you keep your cool at least till 2k then the noise(piston noise) will not increase and you will not even notice it neither the 95% of UCE owners. But the noise you heard the first time can happen from time to time mostly when running hard in city. If you do hear it then just let it cool for 15minutes and thats all.


There is tiny bit of piston noise on C5's after you do initial 500km+ but its not audible to all and its stays that way if you do the running in right. Has no adverse effect.

[classic86]

Originally Posted by Randhawa

All is well with your bull. This I say to all who worry to much.When you will cross 5-7k and by then if you still have abnormal noises on your engine then you need to worry. Right now just get used to the noises and stop loosing sleep over it.


Coming down to the noise I heard in the clip you posted earlier and a tiny bit this time is due to heat. When piston expands more then the expansion of the barrel then you will have that noise you heard the first time described by you as metal hitting metal.

You heard it first time because you did a bit hard acceleration through the gears and you still have not completed running in. Riding in city does not allows the bike to cool more efficiently(stop-go traffic). The honing RE has used for the barrel takes some time to smoothen out but during that it causes more heat and its also due to the clearance between the barrel and oil rings on piston. I won't go in too much detail but in short its a piston noise issue and RE is supposedly working on it.

There is pros and cons due to inappropriate oil ring clearances on C5.

Cons
Oil consumption
Noise

Pros
No chance of piston seizing up, no matter how hard you will ride on a long stretch
Better lubrication of the barrel

For your next service make a observation if you can. After the oil change, don't ride the bike above 60 for as long as you can. Observe the oil colour which will be still as good as new. Now when you want to see the oil turned into black colour just squeeze throttle for a day and see the colour change.

If you don't avoid hard acceleration during running in then you have a chance for more wear and more noise. If you keep your cool at least till 2k then the noise(piston noise) will not increase and you will not even notice it neither the 95% of UCE owners. But the noise you heard the first time can happen from time to time mostly when running hard in city. If you do hear it then just let it cool for 15minutes and thats all.


There is tiny bit of piston noise on C5's after you do initial 500km+ but its not audible to all and its stays that way if you do the running in right. Has no adverse effect.

Thanks buddy!!! Will keep a note of all these things..