[john doe]

My Lightning 535 is from 2003. Lovely scans and do look for the brochure of the Lightning if you can:-)

[tharian]

Originally Posted by john doe

My Lightning 535 is from 2003. Lovely scans and do look for the brochure of the Lightning if you can:-)

So we had 6 models then with 4 engines types and 2 gearboxes(a350,Ci 350,500,535) to the 8 models with 3 engines now, (UCE 350,500,535)

I just have this brochure and my Electra's manual. I remember picking up the TB's brochure, need to look for it and post it if I find it.

[adrian]

@ All Bullet gurus : I was riding around with a tight / notched steering cone in my Bullet and recently went for a replacement. Earlier the motorcycle used to dive to the right side when hands off but there was no arm pain while riding. So after the replacement of the steering cone, I started to get mild left arm pain from constantly pushing the left grip to keep the motorcycle straight. So I went for a rear wheel alignment with the string method as well as with the sprocket to sprocket chain alignment method (earlier the chain at the point of leaving the rear sprocket was deflecting to the right side). So after the adjustment, no diving when hands off, no arm pain and even the chain noise was reduced. Everything was perfect except one thing, the chain adjuster to the right had to be kept at the 13th tooth and the one at the left had to be kept at 8.

So is it normal in a Bullet to have a difference of 5 teeth between the right and left chain adjusters ?
regards adrian

[KhalDrogo]

Question for all the Bullet Gurus in here. What's the difference between the CI Bullet 350(Right side gears) and a modern UCE Classic 350/Standard 350. I was always of the opinion that it was essentially the same bike, with just an updated engine and slight changes. But I've read a few posts on Team Bhp that say that the new bikes are Bullets only in name. So my question is, what's the difference between the old and new bikes mechanically.

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by adrian

So is it normal in a Bullet to have a difference of 5 teeth between the right and left chain adjusters ?
regards adrian

Should not be a problem at all as far as you have confirmed the alignment with the string method. IMHO, no bike will have perfect alignment even with the adjusters adjusted to the same notch on both sides. There will always be minor deviations. And I am not surprised with the 13th and 8th tooth arrangement here since we are talking about Royal Enfields.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

What's the difference between the CI Bullet 350(Right side gears) and a modern UCE Classic 350/Standard 350. I was always of the opinion that it was essentially the same bike, with just an updated engine and slight changes. But I've read a few posts on Team Bhp that say that the new bikes are Bullets only in name. So my question is, what's the difference between the old and new bikes mechanically.

I do'nt wish to comment on the 'New bikes are bullets only in name' part. But the UCE is definitely an entirely different engine compared to the old CIs. Although it retains the same Bore X Stroke measurements and the pushrods, almost all the engine components are re-engineered from ground up.

It includes a host of changes over the old one. TO list a few:

- Aluminium construction (Less weight)
- Integrated engine, clutch and gearbox (Lesser number of moving parts and hence higher reliability and less transmission losses)
- High rate of oil circulation within the engine for better lubrication (Better reliability)
- 6 plate clutch (7 plates for C5)
- Higher capacity alternator unit
- twin spark plugs
- Throttle position sensors
- Lighter and stronger reciprocating components (likely culprit for the lack of 'feel' and 'thump')
- The piston has more piston rings than the CIs

All in all, the UCE is a contemporary engine with a higher reliability and efficiency than the CIs. Of course, it may lack the 'thump' or 'feel' of the old engines, but I would never dismiss the new engine as a stupid engine.

PS: All other parts outside the UC Engine is still old school and are direct descendants of its ancestors!

PPS: This link should sum everything up.
http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/motorc...-engine-34402/

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

I do'nt wish to comment on the 'New bikes are bullets only in name' part. But the UCE is definitely an entirely different engine compared to the old CIs. Although it retains the same Bore X Stroke measurements and the pushrods, almost all the engine components are re-engineered from ground up.

It includes a host of changes over the old one. TO list a few:

- Aluminium construction (Less weight)
- Integrated engine, clutch and gearbox (Lesser number of moving parts and hence higher reliability and less transmission losses)
- High rate of oil circulation within the engine for better lubrication (Better reliability)
- 6 plate clutch (7 plates for C5)
- Higher capacity alternator unit
- twin spark plugs
- Throttle position sensors
- Lighter and stronger reciprocating components (likely culprit for the lack of 'feel' and 'thump')
- The piston has more piston rings than the CIs

Thanks a lot. That was really insightful and exactly what I was looking for. Is the suspension, chassis, etc the same? And what about the way they perform?

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Question for all the Bullet Gurus in here. What's the difference between the CI Bullet 350(Right side gears) and a modern UCE Classic 350/Standard 350. I was always of the opinion that it was essentially the same bike, with just an updated engine and slight changes. But I've read a few posts on Team Bhp that say that the new bikes are Bullets only in name. So my question is, what's the difference between the old and new bikes mechanically.

I am not a bullet guru but I will put forward my points because this is a discussion that interests me , I learnt to ride on a cast iron bullet and my first bike as such was one ('86 model ).
Mechanically -
Old cast iron bullets engine transmission and gear box were 3 separate units , this and comparatively poor machining increased transmissions losses to levels completely unacceptable in 21st century vehicle .

The new motor as the name suggests is unit construction as in all 3 units in the same case . Roadside mechs call it "pulsar engine" because they cannot work on it with the same ease with which one can attend to a cast iron motor . Other differences are the new engine is aluminium while the old was of course cast iron , the old motor had pushrods while the UCE uses hydraulic "pushrods" to reduce the load on the valve springs thereby allowing the motor to rev a bit further , another difference is carb vs fuel injection . There are differences and there are similarities , considering the original was designed back in late 50's , I won't call the new motor that different .


As for differentiating within the different bullets over the decades-
1. Many differentiate within the cast iron motors itself , prior to circa 1975 , the 350cc (500cc was a late arrival , 94 or 95 I believe and I will only speak from the perspective of 350 ) bulls had a 14 kg flywheel . This reduces acceleration and vibrates less, but increases the ability of the engine to lug in high gears at very low rpm and also the flywheel mass that results in the best exhaust note(exhaust note is the decisive factor ) .
From 14kg it first went to 11.5 and then by mid 80's 8.5 kg , acceleration and fuel economy improved but vibration increased and there is a distinct difference between the exhaust note . Many differentiate as such based on crank mass itself . Listen or better ride an original '68 model , it will be very hard to digest any other bullet after that even cast irons

ps: just before being phased out , enfield rolled out the last couple of the bullet(not electra's , just bullet ) batches with 14kg flywheel . I am not sure about this but I was told this along with that they command astronomical price .

2. Between CI and UCE - I am not sure why many learned owners scathingly put down the UCE , this is my guess but I assume it is down to the stark difference in exhaust note and the general feel of riding both bikes (this is probably a vague observation but it really does feel different to ride a cast iron ). Also the flywheel mass in current models differ greatly , the thunderbird for example even in 500cc has 5.5kg or 7kg mass while the 500cc bullet has 14kg mass - I recently came across a dark green 500cc bullet on road with a short bottle up-swept silencer and it sounded very good .

Also many hardcore owners love to attend to their cast iron bullets , it is a connection building exercise for them and something they miss with the new bulls which don't break down as much and when they do , it is hard to attend to it on the road side .


I personally detest only one thing with bullets , it is silencers which are obnoxiously loud but have no beat , it is very common to see cast iron riders especially sporting such silencers (Patiala silencer is one such variant) but they completely fail to grasp the beauty behind the exhaust note of a fine tuned bullet .

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Is the suspension, chassis, etc the same? And what about the way they perform?

If you compare the suspension of Classic 350/500 to that of a Standard Bullet, the front suspension is almost similar in construction and performance. The only change in the newer Classics might be the no-offset fork (which provide better handling and a direct feel) and the disk brake caliper mount. Coming to the rear suspension the classic has a gas filled damper compared to the traditional oil filled of the CIs for a more plusher ride. The frame is still a single down tube type and is totally unchanged till now except for the Continental GT.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by basuroy

I personally detest only one thing with bullets , it is silencers which are obnoxiously loud but have no beat , it is very common to see cast iron riders especially sporting such silencers (Patiala silencer is one such variant) but they completely fail to grasp the beauty behind the exhaust note of a fine tuned bullet .

Thank you, that was very informative. Yeah, sadly people seem to go for volume over the beat. What people fail to comprehend, in my opinion is that the sound is beautiful because it exists as a by-product of the way the bike functions. In and of itself, louder exhausts don't mean much.

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

If you compare the suspension of Classic 350/500 to that of a Standard Bullet, the front suspension is almost similar in construction and performance. The only change in the newer Classics might be the no-offset fork (which provide better handling and a direct feel) and the disk brake caliper mount. Coming to the rear suspension the classic has a gas filled damper compared to the traditional oil filled of the CIs for a more plusher ride. The frame is still a single down tube type and is totally unchanged till now except for the Continental GT.

Thank you, again! I own a Standard 350 from the late 80's, and my friend took delivery of his Classic 350 yesterday. That bike was absolutely beautiful in person. I always preferred modern, high revving bikes, but sitting pillion on the CL350 has made me reconsider that. The exhaust was muted, but it pulled in nearly every gear, stopped well with the front disc, and despite what I'd heard about their build quality, looked surprisingly well made. The kick stand in chrome looked like it came off a Harley/Triumph. With my bike currently leaking all over the place, this seemed like the perfect balance between a Bullet, and a modern, reliable machine.

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

..With my bike currently leaking all over the place, this seemed like the perfect balance between a Bullet, and a modern, reliable machine.

That is exactly the point of the modern UCE Enfields.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Thank you, again! I own a Standard 350 from the late 80's, and my friend took delivery of his Classic 350 yesterday. That bike was absolutely beautiful in person. I always preferred modern, high revving bikes, but sitting pillion on the CL350 has made me reconsider that. The exhaust was muted, but it pulled in nearly every gear, stopped well with the front disc, and despite what I'd heard about their build quality, looked surprisingly well made. The kick stand in chrome looked like it came off a Harley/Triumph. With my bike currently leaking all over the place, this seemed like the perfect balance between a Bullet, and a modern, reliable machine.

Hi KhalDrogo, let me add my two cents on this thread. I own about five RE motorcycles and all are from different era's. I ride all of them and each has its own unique character and charm. Out of the five I have two vintage 350 Bullet CI's. One is a 1961 G2 model (just engine and gearbox) and other is a 1969 B1 model (ex-military complete motorcycle), these were the Bullets that came with a heavy crank of 14 kgs further reduced to 12.5 kgs on post 1973 models and further to 10 kgs and so on. They have their own old world charm and a well tuned Bullet Standard from that era will make a thumping sound that would make one go weak on their knees.

But like they say "only one part doesn't make the whole motorcycle", leaving aside the heavy crank let's talk about my other Bullet CI 350 which is a 1996 standard model that came with a lighter crank. This motorcycle of mine is still on its original 1996 factory fitted silencer and she thumps beautifully, albeit a bit faster than her older sisters. The 1996 standard bullet accelerates faster than the vintage classic models I have, it has 12 volt electricals compared to 6 volts of my vintage classics, the chassis and the swing arm is the same in all with a few subtle changes here and there. Coming to my fourth motorcycle a 2004 model Thunderbird AVL LB 350, this one comes with CDI ignition (doesn't need a battery for starting), all aluminum engine, needless to say light crank, 5 speed gearbox with shifter on the left side, gear driven oil pump compared to standards' piston operated oil pump, accelerates much faster than my Standard CI's and can sustain high speed cruising of upto 80-90 KMPH continuously. This one has a muted thump but she can go fast compared to my CI's considering both are in stock form thanks to a high compression and light weight engine on the Tbird AVL. The same engine makes the Tbird AVL rattle a lot and you can hear all sorts of sounds eminating from it. Now one thing common in all of these four bikes mentioned above is leaking oil (although AVL Tbird leaks less).

Coming to my fifth and latest acquisition the Thunderbird 500, this one shares the same chassis with a minor modification using the engine as a stressed member, the rear swingarm though is an all new box swingarm. Compared to my earlier CI's and AVL the new swingarm coupled with beefy forks upfront and a minor tweak in the wheelbase makes the Thunderbird 500 the best handling RE motorcycle I have in my garage (The RE Continental GT is even better thanks to all new twin cradle frame chassis, new swing arm and marvellous shock ups). The Thunderbird 500 uses a UCE engine, double spark plugs and EFi technology with a host of other bells and whistles which is every worth of my penny. The motorcycle is responsive and has oodles of overflowing torque in every gear. It accelerates faster than any of my existing motorcycles and will hold a greater top speed for long time in its stock form.

If I start typing about each of these motorcycles, a 1000 words would not be enough. You can make your choice based on your preference. Believe me the newer lot of RE motorcycles with their UCE engines are not all that bad. They are very capable, powerful and reliable, by RE's yardstick standards (standard means not the Standard Bullet but standards as in word ).

[slicvic]

Had used Tribocor TC 81 Corrosion Prevention Spray ( http://www.tribocor.in/aerosols.php ) four months ago to protect the chrome from the rain. Now it just doesn't go even after using Diesel for removing it.

Any suggestions ?

[tharian]

Any idea what was the weight for the CI Electra's flywheel?
Not sure if the 5sp one was lighter since it was rev happy compared to the 4sp ones probably because of the different ratios.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by man_of_steel

Should not be a problem at all as far as you have confirmed the alignment with the string method. IMHO, no bike will have perfect alignment even with the adjusters adjusted to the same notch on both sides. There will always be minor deviations. And I am not surprised with the 13th and 8th tooth arrangement here since we are talking about Royal Enfields.

Thanks man, but what condition would be masked by arriving at a perfect wheel alignment with this much difference in both sides, a bend frame or something ?
regards adrian

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by adrian

Thanks man, but what condition would be masked by arriving at a perfect wheel alignment with this much difference in both sides, a bend frame or something ?
regards adrian

Did you have any major accident in which the bike's chassis took quite a blow? If not, I guess you can safely assume that the frame is all right. Its not really easy to bend the frame!

Such a variation can be due to variation in manufacturing tolerances too. Also, the Classics (Both 350 and 500) have a natural tendency to dive right when you take the hands off the handlebars (Even if the cam markers are same at both ends of rear axle). I think you just compensated that with the manual alignment check.

Also, do check if the swing arm bushes are fine.