[ringoism]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

To be honest I have I have seen numerous riders throwing off their EFi units in favour of the good old carb once the 1 year warranty period is over.

Thanks for the confirmation; Being that it's not only here in the Himalayas that this is being done, it simply points to the low cost/benefit ratio (thinking especially of post-warranty tech problems/maintenance costs) of RE/Keihin's current (domestic market) EFI system, as I've also suggested would be the case for a FI Himalayan. Very happy if RE goes the carb route here.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Gentlemen I got this information (from the service manual) about the Export model RE EFi 500 that are fitted with an O2 sensor... "The (O2) sensor... provides feedback to the ECU which in turn will meter the air/fuel ratio in order to achieve a near stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1 during closed loop operation. (The ideal mixture is the amount of fuel needed to make an engine perform as commanded by the the ECU)... Till the time the Lambda sensor is activated the ECU gives a preset air fuel mixture."

Perhaps RE is simply explaining this in terms easier for laypersons like myself to grasp, but their description seems to match my understanding / earlier assertions in this thread. Regardless of what other sensors may exist and their dedicated functions, finally if you've got no O2 sensor, you're really going to lack any A/F fine-tuning, and are only able to run according to merely theoretically correct "presets". Thanks for finding/sharing this.

Originally Posted by Hammer & Anvil

OK- this is interesting. The rim size- from visual is a 21"... the image was scaled to that first so that the rim and a 'ruler' or object (as created in AutoCAD or a vector software) would match to the millimeter.

A brilliant effort there, thank you. And I do hope it comes with a 21-incher, which is really the standard for this sort of machinery and works much better on rough tracks. It would be so unprecedented in the Indian market (though plenty of 21"-equipped bikes to be found in Nepal, incidentally), that I almost doubt it will finally make it to production. But if it does, I'll be a lot happier being able to buy the size here again (post the ISI-stamp fiasco), rather than having to quietly bring them over in suitcases (re: my proposed Impulse upgrade)...

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Not necessarily. It's an exception, and how you handle it is once again a matter of philosophy. The reading from a sensor has gone beyond accepted bounds. If one thinks that the sensor is essentially OK, just degraded slightly and gone off calibration, clamping the value at one of its limits, and working with it makes sense. However if one thinks that that reading should not be there at all, and most probably indicative of a bust sensor, then the approach might be to substitute a 'mean/ expected/ ballpark' figure, and try and continue without damaging anything. Similarly for other options. It is an exception handler. The rule normally in these cases is be graceful, do no harm. And in litigious environments, remember safety of the 3 Ps take precedence.

Much appreciated, excellent insights there. The question coming to my mind through a lot of this discussion is: How much did RE themselves really have to do with "their own" FI setup till date? How much of the philosophy and assumptions were imported along with the supplier's (Keihin's) hardware? I'm assuming RE provided some specific requirements; but while in the development process, who took the lead in testing/evaluation, and how much interaction was going on between manufacturer and supplier? Ultimately, barring the omission of the O2 sensor (can only see that as an economic/marketing decision), who's to blame in this case if the setup often isn't working very well under certain conditions? I do wonder what some of those discussions were like between them - was it: (Keihin engineers) "You're going to need an O2 sensor to do this right" and (RE marketing): "The market won't bear the cost of doing this right, give us something that will basically work, a technology that we can sell at a premium"; Or was it (Keihin marketing) "We can give you a perfectly effective budget FI system that will meet your requirements and work flawlessly under all sorts of varying conditions" and (RE engineering dept): "We know that's unlikely - but (ever frustrated) you people and our own marketeers are going to get along just great."

-Eric

[Sutripta]

^^^
The story (urban legend?) is that Keihin used to calibrate their systems till 12000 ft. RE took them to Ladakh.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but FI systems by Indian bike manufacturers left something to be desired. I would not want to go back to a carburetted car. But on a bike here, I would wait for user feedback.

Regards
Sutripta

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Thanks for the confirmation; Being that it's not only here in the Himalayas that this is being done, it simply points to the low cost/benefit ratio (thinking especially of post-warranty tech problems/maintenance costs) of RE/Keihin's current (domestic market) EFI system, as I've also suggested would be the case for a FI Himalayan. Very happy if RE goes the carb route here.

Much appreciated, excellent insights there. The question coming to my mind through a lot of this discussion is: How much did RE themselves really have to do with "their own" FI setup till date? How much of the philosophy and assumptions were imported along with the supplier's (Keihin's) hardware? I'm assuming RE provided some specific requirements; but while in the development process, who took the lead in testing/evaluation, and how much interaction was going on between manufacturer and supplier?

Eric mate although I have mentioned many of them riders I came across threw their EFi units in favour of carb, on the other hand I have also seen equal number of riders retaining their EFi's as they have faced no issues with it whatsoever. I myself am very satisfied with the EFi unit on my Tbird500 during the last one year of ownership and will continue to use it. I believe people are putt off due to high repair and replacement cost of the EFi unit and also that they have to depend on RE after sales for EFi related issues. But besides this I feel EFi is very reliable as can be seen on many motorcycles from foreign manufacturers in every category right from retro classic to adventure tourer to sports bike.

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

The idle speed on the other hand is easily changed by turning a very large, brass screw.

This screw is located down in the bottom of a hole in the top of the throttle body and the screw has a straight cut slot for use with a very large straight blade screw driver.

Jim mate I was unable to locate this large brass screw on my EFi powered Thunderbird500. I am posting some pics here for your reference. (The bike is a bit dirty thanks to riding in the rains )

[FuelInjector]

Can someone suggest good handle grips for Bullet 500? Sometimes feel a pair of good rubber grips can dampen some vibrations coming up to the handles.
Is there any good brand available in India? has anyone put those on their bikes and if yes - does it make a difference?

[navin_v8]

Gentlemen continuing the O2 sensor EFi discussion. I came across this link while researching on the O2 sensor equipped EFi systems. Very interesting take on the O2 sensor(although this is about Harley Davidson models) by the author wherein he says and I quote:

"Enter the O2 sensors and closed-loops in 2006. Why were they added? Some people will say they were added to help the bike adjust for weather and altitude changes. Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, as we’ll see shortly, the opposite is true. Plus, didn’t we just see that the pre- O2 system already adjusted for temperature? And altitude is automatically tracked since atmospheric pressure changes show up at the manifold pressure sensor. No, the O2 sensors were added for one reason only: to control exhaust emissions the same way they have on cars and trucks since the 1980s. They allow for that good old 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR that yields the most complete combustion and thus minimum emissions. They allow for that good old 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR that yields the most complete combustion and thus minimum emissions.

In closed-loop mode, the O2 sensors don’t adjust the fuel maps. Instead, they completely take control away from them, causing the temperature and pressure sensors to have no effect either. Rather than compensate for the weather, as some claim, the closed-loop system ignores it. The bike runs lean to begin with, and, as one rider told me, the colder it gets, the worse it runs. That’s because it doesn’t get the extra fuel it needs for the higher density air."

Link Source: http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html

The question is does RE EFi powered motorcycles here in India run on a closed loop or an open loop system? I have read elsewhere that an open loop system does not require a O2/Lambda sensor per se triggering my doubts whether RE uses an open loop system on their domestic EFi models.

[ArizonaJim]

navin_v8

You will have to remove the sidecover to expose more of the fuel injector body.

Please see the photo below. The poorly drawn red arrow points to the location of the idle speed adjustment screw. It is down in the hole.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

for EFi related issues.

Question is why were there so many EFi issues.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Gentlemen continuing the O2 sensor EFi discussion. I came across this link while researching on the O2 sensor equipped EFi systems. Very interesting take on the O2 sensor(although this is about Harley Davidson models) by the author wherein he says and I quote:

[i]" They allow for that good old 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR that yields the most complete combustion and thus minimum emissions. They allow for that good old 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR that yields the most complete combustion and thus minimum emissions.

Not entirely correct. Roundabout way. 14.7 is required for the modern 3 way cat con to work.
Also there are operating modes where closed loop is not used. Guess it will depend on the regulatory environment.

Regards
Sutripta

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Question is why were there so many EFi issues.

Dada if I may, these issues cropped up and were often nasty sometimes when RE introduced them for the first time in 2010 on the CL500. From what I have heard and read so far RE and the EFi vendor Keihin worked on the EFi unit to make it more reliable and trouble free on the later models. I believe the EFi unit on my Tbird500 which I bought in last year September has the latter tweaked EFi. So far the EFi unit has been trouble free.

Not entirely correct. Roundabout way. 14.7 is required for the modern 3 way cat con to work. Also there are operating modes where closed loop is not used. Guess it will depend on the regulatory environment.

I read another paragraph in the same link and it said, "The fuel system adds head and intake air temperatures as inputs to the ECM. Throttle position is measured at the throttle body on the engine. The cam position sensor times the injector pulse and the fuel tables set the fuel injector’s pulse length and, therefore, the volume of fuel injected. The fuel tables are lists of pulse lengths based on throttle opening, manifold pressure, and engine rpm. When combined with the ignition tables, they’re often called maps because the ECM is constantly moving around on them as the bike is ridden. The basic fuel tables are set to produce air/fuel ratios (AFRs) of about 14:1 at low throttle openings, gradually getting richer as the throttle is opened to 13:1 at full throttle. This gives good fuel mileage, responsive performance, and maximum horsepower. The intake and head temperatures offset the tables, adding a little more fuel to keep the engine running smoothly when either the engine or weather is cold.

The sensors are referred to as narrowband because their output changes very little in the AFR outside the narrow range of 15:1 to 14.2:1. It would also be accurate to call them switches since they effectively toggle on and off abruptly as the 14.7:1 ratio is crossed. The fuel system can’t actually maintain the 14.7:1 ratio so it’s continually hunting. If the mixture is detected as leaner than 14.7, the ECM responds by adding fuel at the injectors. That makes it too rich at the exhaust, so the ECM reduces fuel. Once the loop is closed and this hunting process starts, the loop is referred to as locked, and it repeats continuously as long as the loop is closed."

However my doubt still remains whether the RE EFi unit runs on a closed loop or open loop system?

[Sutripta]

^^^
Good to know EFi gremlins are being sorted out.
What does your bikes spark plug tell you?

On our Indian bikes RE runs an open loop system.

The article quoted I think refers to Harleys and Indians. I dont know about these two, but I doubt there will be two much deviation from industry norms. Essentially A) there are modes where closed loop control is not used and B) even simple control works quite well given the very narrow band over which the Lambda sensor works. Not like the horror story painted in the article.

Regards
Sutripta

[FuelInjector]

Does anyone know about this brand of silencer? Had been to a spare part shop and he said these aware new ones with ceramic wool and selling more than wild boar these days. Any review or feedback on experience about this would be very helpful.

[Rugged]

Hi Folks ,
I recently got a QUALITY brand short bottle silencer for my STD-UCE 350 2013 Model post 11,000 kms.The thump is decent, not too loud & not too low.
I have noticed the engine going smooth , as a result the speed has increased.
Also there is a strong recoil (2 out of 10 times) which rarely occured with the stock RE Exhaust. Dont know about the mileage.
Has anybody used the QUALITY brand short bottle silencer for their
UCE bullets ? If yes ?
Kindly share your experience (pros & cons)

[farhadtarapore]

Hi,
Few issues I have got post the first free service of my Thunderbird 500:

1. The buttons for the trip meter/clock stopped working
   As per the service center guy, pressure wash sometimes causes these issues and they iron themselves out once the water dries up. After 2-3 days, it became fine.
2. A slightly more serious issue I think: the electric start does not work as it used to. After I press the switch, it takes about 2-3 seconds (sometimes more) for the motor to crank up. Sometimes it doesn't work at all and I have to use the Engine Kill switch to turn it off, turn it on, wait for the fuel pump thingy and then crank it up.

Not sure what the 2nd issue is due to but I'm feeling scared to give my bike for servicing.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by farhadtarapore

The buttons for the trip meter/clock stopped working. As per the service center guy, pressure wash sometimes causes these issues and they iron themselves out once the water dries up. After 2-3 days, it became fine.

farhad mate I am always wary of electronic stuff and water spraying over them. Especially RE Tbird500 which has a lot of electronic gadgetry. I as an owner take adequate precautions while pressure washing motorcycles which I have learned from my old RE CI Bullets, which too get affected by pressure washing. The technique is to ask those pressure wash guys to avoid spraying water directly on or near the fuel tank, wiring harness behind headlight and the digital instrument clusters. In fact I make it a point to tell them specifically "not to use pressure washing" in my absence. In fact I tell them not to do it at all.

The electric start does not work as it used to. After I press the switch, it takes about 2-3 seconds (sometimes more) for the motor to crank up. Sometimes it doesn't work at all and I have to use the Engine Kill switch to turn it off, turn it on, wait for the fuel pump thingy and then crank it up.

I too faced this issue but can't say it is an issue or not as I used to give a very mild throttle while thumb starting and it started at first crank every time. I hope you are pulling/depressing the clutch fully while thumb starting the bike. Hope this helps.

[farhadtarapore]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

I hope you are pulling/depressing the clutch fully while thumb starting the bike. Hope this helps.

Should I be pressing the clutch even when the bike is in neutral? In any other gear, if the clutch is not pressed, the bike will anyway not start.

I'm going to ask them to skip the washing part during the service. I anyway wash it myself.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by farhadtarapore

Should I be pressing the clutch even when the bike is in neutral?

Of course you should mate. In fact one should always press the clutch while thumb starting the bike. Refer to your user manual page no.44 for the correct starting procedure.

In any other gear, if the clutch is not pressed, the bike will anyway not start.

True it is a safety feature to prevent accidental start in gear. As a general practice ALWAYS bring the motorcycle in neutral before thumb starting(even though one can thumb start the motorcycle in gear by pressing the clutch). In your user manual refer to page no.43 where it shows a Warning message which says, "Before starting engine, always shift gears to neutral."

I'm going to ask them to skip the washing part during the service. I anyway wash it myself.

Or you can ask them to wash it in your presence or better wash it yourself, as that is the best.