[howler]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

So many words, but none saying if it is better than the Himalayan. I could not get a test ride at Mekhri circle either. Guess we will be waiting for a while longer to see how it shapes up.

Got this from a friend who rode the bike over 1k kms. He says while the him 450 is heavier / top heavy at slower speeds it just flattens bad roads and surfaces better than the KTM. ‘Feels’ better put together too, but only time will tell with this observation. His main grouse with the KTM was the inability to completely switch off driver aids. He’d still pick the H450 over the KTM purely for the ride but he is also a bit of a RE fanboy

[parrys]

Originally Posted by jaganm

And also get opinions from real owners, I’m always sceptical about these initial reviews where the people have got wined and dined by the manufacturer, difficult to be completely objective

When you make statements like these, you walk all over someone who has been in the industry for years / decades. Criticism is easy, especially from home / office. But I understand what you're saying too.

As a part of this industry since 2011, here is what we go through:

• Waking up at 3 am for flights sometimes, returning home way past midnight.
• Road traffic + air congestion.
• Poorly managed aviation industry troubles.
• Poorly managed events too, at times.
• Really tight shooting schedules.
• Unpredictable weather. Torrential rain or heat wave.
• Unskilled tracking car drivers at times.
• No time to eat, no time to sleep.
• Different law of the land, in different cities.
• Anxiety to finish the job, because you never know when the products reach back to local cities for further testing.
• Ensuring equipment is charged & functions as expected. Tech can go wrong any time.
• And finally, to churn out content on set date & time, which is unrealistic at times.

I have ridden the bike back home from Goa to Mumbai, some negatives, since most want to only consider that and then claim this is exactly the reason why they are not buying the bike.

PS: I have been a very happy owner of the Gen 1, 1st lot KTM 390 ADV for over 4 years.

1. Vibrations are felt around the 6000 RPM mark, especially in lower gears.
2. Windscreen is a bit tall and creates a visible obstruction for few, when on trails.
3. Seats are decent in terms of padding, but visibly look slimmer than the old bike. The brand claims no change in size, but eyes don't believe so.
4. Knuckle guards look bad, the aesthetics.
5. Healthy pillions could feel the XL size grab rails are poking them.
6. Apollo tyres are good, but no match to the Metzelers.
7. Tail lamp is too small.
8. With the longer wheelbase & 21" front, the bike isn't as sharp in handling.
9. Colour combination is weird. Orange bike has more white, white bike has more orange.
10. Front fork adjustment with gloves, on the fly, very tricky.
11. Rear pre-load adjustment, will need effort.

What I loved:

1. Quickshifter - flawless. No failed attempt ever.
2. Cruise control - worked every single time. It works coupled with the quickshifter too.
3. Speedometer height is ideal. Easy to read even under top sun.
4. The front dome, the rally tower, does not shake around and vibrate at low RPMs and on rough terrain, like the old model did.
5. Ride quality is superb. I did Goa to Mumbai in a trip ride time of 7 hour 47 minutes. 600 Kms. Did not have to sit on a pillow once home.
6. Great acceleration, as expected from KTM. Ride mode custom settings allow for tuning as per rider preference.
7. Switch cubes can be used easily even with gloves.
8. Lower seat height gives more confidence, especially to shorter riders, and also overall when sitting and riding on a trail. Easy reach to the ground.
9. Headlight is great. Was riding for almost 70-100 kms in dense fog before sunrise, no issue whatsoever.
10. Stopping power is no concern. More suspension travel = more dive, but still in control.
11. Not a single part failed or malfunctioned, these were the first lot production bikes.
12. Finally the front turn indicators can be replaced easily, the dome need not be removed. Was stupidly installed on the old bike.
13. Does not tip too much on the side stand, the weight is easy to manage too.
14. Crawl function is superb. Works on tarmac and on trails.
15. Very stable on high speeds. Was doing silly speeds with plenty confidence.

KTM 390 Adventure > Royal Enfield Himalayan 450.

[texmonster]

Thanks for the detailed info @parrys!

Btw when is the official Team-Bhp review dropping?

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by parrys

some negatives

What I loved

This is all that can reasonably be expected, especially given the equally long list of things you mention going through. Thanks for sharing!

A couple of questions:
1. Do you think an after-market windscreen with less curves and shapes, would fix the issue you mention in #2 by not warping the road/trail ahead, or is it just any windscreen would be intrusive at that height?

2. Did you have enough time to tinker with the adjustable suspension to suit your ride? If so, how different does each click feel- granular/huge? And would stiffening the front forks a bit help with nose dives?

[AtheK]

Thanks @parrys for your detailed review and I agree and relate with all the pain points you listed as a part of this job. I though do all that in a different capacity in a different field.

That though still does not take away the fact that majority of first set of reviews these days are always positive and hardly balanced, so I personally wait for some more time to see real life feedback. Also all of you get too less time with the bikes, so I do appreciate all the work you do to get us that initial feedback.

Thanks again for all your hardwork to get us the initial impressions. They do definitely prepare potential buyers for what to come in near future, I just avoid them now, but hey that is just me.

[hikozaru]

Originally Posted by parrys

When you make statements like these, you walk all over someone who has been in the industry for years / decades. Criticism is easy, especially from home / office. But I understand what you're saying too.

No offence mate, but just as we as customers can vote with our wallets, the media should also be doing a better job. No one wants to know that the new ADV is better than an old ADV that people cannot buy new anymore. Of course, KTM will compare it with their previous generation of product to show how much gains they made, but it is up to the reviewers to cut through the corpospeak and tell us what we actually need to know. You see a CPU review? Sure its got absolute numbers, gen on gen increases within the same brand, but it also comes with comparisons with other products currently on the market. Otherwise, its just content maxing trying to keep us engaged. Sure, the logistics of comparing bikes is a bit harder than comparing CPUs but its not like reviewers forget what it felt like riding other bikes.

Originally Posted by parrys

Great acceleration, as expected from KTM. Ride mode custom settings allow for tuning as per rider preference.

Crawl function is superb. Works on tarmac and on trails.

And this is why people like me are wary of reviews by media outlets. Everybody was talking about 3 teeth shorter gearing adding more pep to the bike compared to even the manic duke, but if I remember correctly, a review said something about wheel sizes affecting gearing. So effectively, what KTM have done is adjust it to ride like the duke, which makes it not worth mentioning from an acceleration perspective. Which means all of this shorter gearing mental acceleration is either placebo that the media team put in the media guys' heads or the media guys are just toeing the party line.

Same thing with the crawl function. The new duke has it, I have mentioned it on the forum, so have a few other people, and my friend told me that the 2nd gen dukes also have it. So, why is it getting a mention all of a sudden just because KTM named this feature? It is clearly another case of reviewers parroting the launch packets.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

And this is why people like me are wary of reviews by media outlets. Everybody was talking about 3 teeth shorter gearing adding more pep to the bike compared to even the manic duke, but if I remember correctly, a review said something about wheel sizes affecting gearing. So effectively, what KTM have done is adjust it to ride like the duke, which makes it not worth mentioning from an acceleration perspective. Which means all of this shorter gearing mental acceleration is either placebo that the media team put in the media guys' heads or the media guys are just toeing the party line.

It is not as simple as compensating for the wheel height increase and thereby taller gearing of the new ADV. The 130/80 and 150/60 has a difference of like 1+cm in sidewall height and it does make for an effectively taller gearing. But the new ADV drops one tooth in front and increases one in the back (14/46). Usually dropping one teeth in front is similar to adding 2+ teeth in the back and with an extra teeth at the back, it is like effectively going 3-4 teeth up on the rear sprocket. This has resulted in a much shorter effective gearing even with the taller rear tyre. The claimed top speed is 155kph which is probably a GPS figure (I saw 160-164 speedo indicated in some videos) . The claimed top speed of the Gen 3 390 is 160-165kph. So it certainly is a lot short geared which is good for an ADV. Last ADV was criticized for running the same final drive as the 390.

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

This is all that can reasonably be expected

Initial impressions is the best that can be done. Expecting a verdict to aid making a purchase decision, after basically what is probably just hours of riding is simply unrealistic. Whether or not this what the person does for a living, no human operate as such. Engineers and designers spend months working on something, marketers mostly add mumbo-jumbo on top of that and we expect riders to delineate in hours?

After media rides, once the embargo lifts, what we're being served is somewhere between advert- specs read- initial impressions. There's no going above and beyond that, given the time-frame.

I'm sure the riders themselves can do a better job, when they operate with their own agency, when those with wallets would care to wait for a more informative one, when such reviews become valuable enough that OEMs and publishers are forced to consider the harder-for-them alternative. As for the media that we're stuck with today, well they appear to be giving what the people want from where I'm sitting. So, it is only fair to hate the game and not the player.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by howler

Got this from a friend who rode the bike over 1k kms. He says while the him 450 is heavier / top heavy at slower speeds it just flattens bad roads and surfaces better than the KTM. ‘Feels’ better put together too, but only time will tell with this observation. His main grouse with the KTM was the inability to completely switch off driver aids. He’d still pick the H450 over the KTM purely for the ride but he is also a bit of a RE fanboy

Cross posting from my review in the other ADV R thread. I too would pick the Himi 450 over the ADV 390 S. Reasons as follows:

On Sunday, I sat on both Adventure X and Adventure S at the showroom. The feeling of 5mm seat difference is negligible. Then I rode the Adv 390S briefly.

My 1st impressions:

• Bike feels light.
• The tall seat doesn't feel overwhelming for short riders
• Maneuverability is good
• Was able to take U-turn in a very short radius without putting feet down
• Didn't like the pick up in the low revs. Feels sluggish.
• Brakes, suspension are ok.

I was underwhelmed. This was a bike on my radar for a while and I almost felt my dreams crashing.

Went and test rode the Himi 450 back to back.

My observations:

• Himi has better low end pick up than the ADV 390
• Himi's brakes and gear shifting are better than the 390
• Suspension, both will be at par
• 390 feels lighter and agile
• 390 has almost no vibrations compared to the Himi
• Himi seat feels more comfortable

Original post here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post5931399 (KTM 390 Adventure R spotted ahead of EICMA 2024)

[jaganm]

Originally Posted by parrys

When you make statements like these, you walk all over someone who has been in the industry for years / decades. Criticism is easy, especially from home / office. But I understand what you're saying too.

Sorry if I came across as rude. I understand that the job like all other jobs has challenges and is not as glamorous as it seems from the outside.

But I've now seen this in multiple vehicle launches that I've followed, Triumph 400s, Himalayan, Interceptor Bear, Super Meteor, Guerilla 450. The reviewers tend to focus more on the positives and the negatives tend to get pushed down a bit. Over time, the negatives gradually come out and mostly through real user feedback. That's why I would always wait a few months before buying.

As an average buyer, the dilemma is real. What are my inputs? Reviews/videos from professional publications, feedback from community. The actual experience with the bike is mostly limited to a 15/20 minute ride over 4/5 km in terrain that is nowhere close to the intended use. So, an inordinate amount of weight does fall on the reviews in a buying decision.

I'm sure most reviewers do have the intention and make an effort to be as objective and comprehensive as possible, as once reputation is lost, it is difficult to get back. The evidence, sadly, isn't conclusive.

[jackofsome]

Originally Posted by parrys

When you make statements like these, you walk all over someone who has been in the industry for years / decades. Criticism is easy, especially from home / office. But I understand what you're saying too.

Can you please tell us the exact launch timeline of the SMC R? Someone is saying it will come in a few months, someone else is saying, it will come if they gauge enough demand, etc. Would like to know what exactly is on KTM India's mind.

[VW2010]

I always take these media reviews and influencer nonsense with a (pinch of), pinch of salt. The media house pretty much decides the script and the tone of the reviews or what they say is extremely muted. To be honest one may not get an invite from the manufacturer next time as well and which media house, trying to add more subscribers, views and intended paisa vasool is going to take a route that will jeopardize the chance to ride first any new products and make their day. (I wouldn't either).

I see these reviews as a good introduction to features. Nothing beats one's personal test ride to judge what makes sense for one's style, quirks and asks from a motorcycle.

At least in the few videos I watched I observed one was an existing Himalayan owner and was already biased from the word go, overselling feature type, and then there was the first-time rider who exclaimed "Wow" as a gesture that he was going over a water patch for the first time.

The reviews tried hard to sell off-roading and I am not even sure if that is the intent of this bike. It can do offroading vs it is meant mainly for trails and jumping over obstacles.

I prefer the actual ownership review as it at least calls out the individual biases well and we can still ignore some of them versus trying to sell a video on YouTube.

Can you please tell us the exact launch timeline of the SMC R? Someone is saying it will come in a few months, someone else is saying, it will come if they gauge enough demand, etc. Would like to know what exactly is on KTM India's mind.

They will take time to check how the demand is for the supermoto as supermoto is yet to even make it to a decent-sized stage for selling this type of bike. Enduro is supposed to be right around the horizon while R and SMC will be announced based on demand as the cost will be way higher for both based on international markets.

[jackofsome]

Originally Posted by VW2010

They will take time to check how the demand is for the supermoto as supermoto is yet to even make it to a decent-sized stage for selling this type of bike. Enduro is supposed to be right around the horizon while R and SMC will be announced based on demand as the cost will be way higher for both based on international markets.

The Adventure R - sure, has to be expensive, the suspension alone should be 1.5lacs if imported which is okay considering they are the good stuff, but the SMCR - is exactly the Enduro R with 17 inchers. So cost can't be higher than the Enduro R, in fact I think it should be lower than the Enduro R. Someone even snapped a SMC R testing with a saree guard..

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by parrys

What I loved:

1. Quickshifter - flawless. No failed attempt ever.
2. Cruise control - worked every single time. It works coupled with the quickshifter too.

Possible to explain more on the quickshifter? Is it like a 'press and hold the speed' mechanism or is more complicated than that?

Does it resume to a set speed once engaged?

Originally Posted by jaganm

That's why I would always wait a few months before buying.

The adoption curve needs to be kept in mind here IMHO.



Most of the innovators (those who pre-book, for example) don't even need these initial reviews - they may go with their own gut feel of the product and are willing to take a leap of faith with the brand. Heck, they may not even care for factors such as price, colour, variant lists, etc. Their ownership may not even be long-term, but to experience that initial rush of owning a brand new product. When a brand announces a huge list of pre-bookings before a launch, it is these guys at play!

The early adopters may look for the first impressions. They are also willing to trust their own gut, but may look for the initial feedback from media and influencers to re-assure their feelings towards the product. These people mostly end up creating the long term content that the others look for later. All of the first wave of reviews, including our own caters to this segment at first. However, being a running discussion - our threads tend to cater for longer due to ongoing discussions adding more value than the Page 1 report.

The mid-half of the early majority and late majority bring the chunk of sales during the life cycle of a product. Most of us fall in that bracket, statistically speaking - and those of us won't be able to understand why the others take a leap of faith or even go with first impressions. But then that's just the difference of mindset and buyers psychology at play. As media outlets, the long termers target this audience- and Team BHP especially has been strong in this space due to the ownership reports from customers.

On a similar note - If you have asked yourself who in their right minds book a product without knowing the price? Could be the same psychology at play

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by jackofsome

The Adventure R - sure, has to be expensive, the suspension alone should be 1.5lacs if imported which is okay considering they are the good stuff, but the SMCR - is exactly the Enduro R with 17 inchers. So cost can't be higher than the Enduro R, in fact I think it should be lower than the Enduro R. Someone even snapped a SMC R testing with a saree guard..

The Enduro and SMCR cost the same as a Duke 390 in other markets and cheaper than ADV R by a significant margin. So Indian pricing should reflect that. But it won't be as cheap as the Duke due to our market dynamics and product placements. Probably going to be 3-3.4L. It is just an intuition.