[jomson13]

A couple of things that you should know about me:

1. I have never been averse to getting my hands dirty - I'm quite the grease monkey!
2. Having said that - I'm also quite impatient and not very thorough in terms of planning and execution of the work at hand

It should come as no surprise that most of my DIY attempts often end up failing and necessitate a visit to my FNG. One such visit will happen tomorrow and I thought that maybe I should write about my attempts so that some of you may not make the same mistakes that I do.

Before getting into details of my latest blunder, let me write a bit about some more successful attempts!

Getting started

1. Sometime during my engineering days (2005 - 09), I get a call from a classmate saying that he and his father are stranded on the road since their car (Maruti 800) refused to start. He asked me to come over and have a look; My only qualification was that I was a student of mechanical engineering. I reach the place, find them waiting by the roadside and proceed to check under the hood for any obvious issues - anything visibly broken, wires chewed off, cables broken etc. Everything checked out.
The car would crank but not start up. Thankfully the battery still had some life left event after the incessant cranking that my friend and his father put it through. I offered to try - pumped the accelerator pedal while cranking and the car came to life
I'm pretty sure there was some minor blockage in the fuel line which would have cleared itself due to the variation in suction pressure due to the pumping of the accelerator pedal.

2. Around the same time, my sisters friend had come over. She had a Honda Dio and was complaining about the vehicle shutting down frequently and not running steadily. I offered to take a look at propped up the seat to take a look inside. The problem was very clear, the fuel line from the tank was hanging in the air, it had come loose from the carburettor inlet. Fixed it back and problem solved.

3. Neighbours ancient kinetic Honda - This one was tiresome! The moped had not been started for ages, the battery was dead so the only thing we could do was keep trying the kickstart. When it showed no signs of starting, I opened up the side cover to check the air and fuel lines, they seemed ok. Didn't know how to check the spark to let that be as it is. We kept taking turns at the kickstarter while I disconnected and reconnected the fuel line and tinkered around with the air and idling screws. After an eternity the bike started up - maybe it was just bored of having us tinkering around!

Fixing punctures

This is something that I’ve become quite good at. It started with the bicycle but that involved only getting the wheel out and getting the puncture fixed from the local cycle repair shop. With the advent of e-commerce and tubeless tyres came the puncture repair kits and portable air compressors. I graduated from just wheel removal to fixing (plugging) the punctures myself.


Vehicle detailing

This section garners the largest share of the time spent working on my vehicles. I do not employ the services of a person to wash any of my vehicles - I prefer to do it myself. Claying, Wax polishing, Trim and interior plastic detailing typically happen at least 2 times a year for each vehicle.

Most of this was pretty basic stuff, I stepped it up a bit during covid when I took apart my bike (RXG) and painted the frame. You can read about it here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...n-project.html (Partial restoration of my 1996 Yamaha RXG 135 - A lockdown project!)

Another activity worth mentioning is the installation of pre-load adjusters on my bike (Interceptor). This was done along with bhpian sukiwa.
You can read about it here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post5714330 (DIY: Fitting of Marsh preload adjusters on a Royal Enfield Interceptor 650)

Now for the latest DIY - Front brake pad change on the Interceptor
This is also the reason for this thread - I wanted to highlight the issues that I faced with the hope that it would help others in a similar situation

The front brakes had been neglected ever since I got the bike (November 2021). They were working quite well and hence there was no logical reason to tinker with them. I had been keeping an eye on the brake pad thickness and the front pads were due for a change sometime after Diwali 2024. The Interceptor uses brembo make sintered brake pads and I decided to stick to these since I was quite happy with their performance.

Sourcing the pads proved to be a bit difficult;
- I checked online and could only find an aftermarket brand called Vesrah.
- Called a couple of authorized service centers in Sangli who said that they didn't stock the part and it would have to be ordered
- Called the ASC in Pune (Kings auto riders, baner) who confirmed that they had the part in stock. I visited them a couple of days later and found out that they had only one set in stock and that was to be used on a bike that was undergoing service.
Went back next week and they did have the part in stock but they were not very willing to sell it to me. They kept asking me if my bike was available so that the pads could be swapped in the service center itself. I told them that the bike was not in pune and finally they relented and agreed to sell it to me.

Here's the part that was procured



Other required spares had already been procured a long time back. These included:

Brake cleaner (Sourced from Amazon - https://www.amazon.in/dp/B09DGL4J68?...fed_asin_title)
Brake fluid (DOT 3, Bosch make)
Syringe and plastic tube - To drain old brake fluid and to bleed brakes
Caliper grease (Magsol make, lent by fellow bhpian surjaonwheelz)
Adjustable pliers - Stanley make, sourced from Amazon

With the tools and spares ready, I began the activity.
The first part is quite easy - getting the calliper off the disc and getting the old pads off. The calliper is held onto the frame by two 13 mm bolts, get them off and you can slowly slide the calliper off the disc.
In order to get the pads off, the caliper pin needs to be removed. This was a bit stuck in my case so I took some time to get it off. Moreover I did not have a decent punch type tool and hammer to get the pin out.

Some pics of the caliper





The brake dust was cleaned with the help of a toothbrush and the rest of the caliper was cleaned with the brake cleaner and a rag.

The next step sounds quite simple but is what troubled me the most - to push the caliper pistons back into the cylinder. I struggled quite a bit with this; these are all the different types of attempts that I made:

1. Try pushing it back with my bare hands - don’t know why I even tried this
2. Tried using screwdriver, spanners etc. to force the pistons back - the tools kept slipping, no movement on the pistons
3. Opened up the master cylinder and tried #2 again - no change
4. Tried with the adjustable pliers - no movement - caliper body would bear scuff narks
5. Decided to drain the oil in the line and then try - I should have done this via the bleed valve but for some reason that did not strike me and I loosened the banjo bolt (12mm). The brake oil started leaking from this bolt and pretty soon there was quite a puddle of oil near the bike.

Attachment 2702803

The reservoir was almost fully empty, whatever little remained was cleaned out and wiped off.



Whatever little oil was left in the line was salvaged by tying up the brake line upto the level of the master cylinder



Last attempt at pushing the pistons back in



I gave up and decided to take help from the trusted mechanic at the FNG.
Took the caliper to him the next morning and he was able to push the pistons back using two adjustable pliers. It didn't even take him a minute to do this, and there I stood, watching in disbelief, my hands still sore from the hour long struggle from the previous night!



Keeping my bruised ego aside, I got back home and went straight back to work. The rest of the job should have been quite easy. Cleaned up everything and got it ready for re-assembly.




The previous pads were almost fully worn out. Here you can see the difference in pad thickness.



Greased the caliper pins (there are 3 in total - a slim one that holds the pads and two fat ones on which the entire caliper moves with respect to the disc. I don't have a picture for this but I remember that the grease was bright blue in colour.

One of the brake pads (the one opposite the pistons) troubled me a bit during re-assembly. Fitting the pad in place was a bit tricky - you have the find the right angles between the pad and the spring clip to get it to set properly into its slot. Once this was done, when I would put the caliper back onto the disc, the pad would slip out of place. It took me 3-4 attempts to put the caliper back onto the disc with the pads in the correct position.

Next was to install the brake line onto the caliper; Quite messy since oil leaks out of the banjo bolt and doesn't make it easy to fit it back into place. Got it to fit, wiped down my greasy fingers and filled up the reservoir. The new brake fluid was red in colour, previous one was yellowish.



Pumped the brake lever and as expected there was a lot of air in the system. Bubbles were visible in the reservoir when I pumped but the feel of the lever did not change with successive pumps.

The video shows how easy it was to pump the lever.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jgRnA8sfmyU?feature=share

My mechanic did warn me about this when I took the caliper to him. As per him, if air gets into the ABS motor then its a big pain to bleed the system and get the air out.

I had never previously bled brakes before, though I had watched quite a few videos on how it was to be done. I had the required parts in place - a plastic tube, a syringe and the spanner for the bleed valve.

One end of the pipe was fixed onto the bleed valve while the other end to the syringe. The idea was to flush the entire system and pull some new brake fluid through it. Hopefully, while this happens, quite a lot of the air would also be pulled out. I would pump the brake lever (which showed no signs of tightening), hold it pressed and open the bleed valve slightly. This would cause a few bubbles to pop into the line.

Then with the lever released, I would pull the plunger of the syringe to suck some more fluid out. I encountered resistance and had to open the bleed value a bit more, this would cause quite a lot of bubbles to come out into the line. The video shows some bubbles flowing out of the system.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B5MpXDrUlGw?feature=share

I was very enthused by these results and kept at it!
The old oil (yellow) was fully sucked out and I could see new oil (red) flow into the syringe. The bubbles still persisted and the brake lever was still limp.
It suddenly occurred to me that since red oil had made its way into the syringe, I should check on the level of oil in the reservoir - it could be low or even worse, fully empty.

Well guess what - the reservoir was empty! So I had successfully sucked in more air into the system, no wonder the bubbles would not stop!

I repeated the entire process but this time I kept an eye on the oil levels in the reservoir. I didn't let it dip below minimum level. After two refills I could feel the lever begin to harden - so things are going down the right path at least.

Now the syringe end of the tube was disconnected and left into a cup (I used the cap of the brake cleaner). The next step was to do the conventional brake bleeding - pump the lever many times and hold it compressed, crack open the bleed valve and let out the air bubbles. I did this until I could see clear fluid come out of the tube.



Topped off the reservoir, screwed the lid back on and went for a test ride.

The good part - the brakes worked, they had decent bite and it would improve once the pads settled in.

The not so good part - the lever was quite spongy. There is still some air in the system and I will have to bleed it again.

I decided to allow it some time to settle and use the bike for a bit before I work on it again.
It's been a week since the work was done and the brakes work fine except for the slightly spongy feel at the lever.
I even managed to trigger the front and rear ABS (on separate occasions) to ensure that it still works.

Will try one more round of brake bleeding over this weekend.

Some important learnings for me during this whole episode:

1. Have the right tools before you start work - In my case, the adjustible spanner did not work to compress the pistons - I will be getting a C - clamp next.
2. I also didn't have a small pin and hammer which could be used to drive the caliper pin out. I used the pointed end of a scissor and pliers as a hammer and ended up scuffing the caliper as well as breaking the scissors.
3. Use a ring spanner instead of an open spanner on the bleed valve
4. Cover the ground with paper / cardboards to absorb and leaks / spills during work

The next DIY can already be planned - caliper painting.
I spilled quite a lot of oil over it while getting the banjo bolt out, lets see how long the existing paint lasts.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your opinions, suggestions and questions.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[BullettuPaandi]

Commendable effort jomson13!

Although removing the banjo bolt was such a bone-headed move, I must admit, it looks rather inviting- I mean, it is right there at the end of the line with a bigger bolt; can't blame you entirely.

Do keep in mind that the seal/washer of the banjo bolt may have gotten damaged by the brake fluid leaking on it as well; so keep an eye out for it before you ride.

Also, what the mechanic told you about getting air out of the ABS unit is only half true- it is damn near impossible to bleed air out of the ABS unit without specialised tools. The entire system needs to be hooked to a pressurised bleeder unit and the ABS needs to be activated quite a few times, using an OBD tool, while bleeding. How do I know all this, you ask?...

Well, I recently bled my brakes. I tested my new fluid with the old one; and they seemed quite miscible, to my surprise. The perfectionist in me wanted to deliberately introduce air into the system, to bleed as much old fluid out as possible. I had bought 500ml of new brake fluid, so I thought I could bleed the bubbles out thoroughly. Except I was ignorant to this nuance with ABS module and bleeding, and it was too late till I realised that I had only bled brakes on non-ABS bikes so far.

If your ABS module makes a hissing sound as you pull the lever- and more so the quicker you pull- there is air in your ABS module. This is what I noticed while bleeding, and how I came to know about this issue. As of now, I've only reduced the air in the module, by running through as much fluid as I had patience to do, and pumping vigourously before holding (I don't know if this actually helped). I am yet to properly bleed the brakes, as I haven't even been riding lately.

But, if you ride regularly, get the bleeding done properly in a shop/service centre that has the required OBD tool. The pressurised bleeder is not strictly necessary; but I'd want to get it done in one, just for the peace of mind. The 'sponginess' in brakes won't get progressively worse till it gives up. The hygroscopic fluid will absorb moisture, boil as you brake hard and blow the line; so, the loss of braking will be sudden, as you ride and brake, and not predictable.

Make it the first thing you do when you ride, and might as well replace the banjo bolt seal/washer while you're at it.

[Jeroen]

Nice. Always a pleasure to see DIY work and thanks for sharing your experience so other can take notice and learn from you.

A couple of thoughts and suggestions.
Brakes are a pretty critical item on any vehicle. Whereas I would encourage everybody to attempt DIY work on their vehicles, for something like brakes make sure you know what you are doing. Or work alongside with somebody who does.

I am not sure why you could not push back the pistons. Very odd. The only thing I can think off is, initially you were not pushing exactly perpendicular to the calliper. These pistons have only a small tolerance and it looks they were really far out. They really need to be able to be pushed in pretty easily. I hope the seals have not been damaged?

On those banjo bolts, there should be a washer on each side? I can see only one in the image. You are not supposed to re-use those washer. Either replace them or anneal them.

Whether you can bleed an ABS system without any special tools depends a bit on the system. So for instance on my Jaguar I can bleed it without any problems. The only way to know up front is to look it up before you start.

Ideally the bolts holding the callipers should be tightened with a torque wrench to the manufacturer specification. Also, you might want to check this, often these bolts are not to be re-used. So new bolts need to be used. Might be different on your bike, I don’t know. Many mechanics will re-use the bolts, but it’s not a smart thing to do, if the official procedure is to use new ones.

These bolts only hold the calliper properly with the correct (sometimes new) bolts torqued to the correct specification. To little torque or too much can create a problem.

As you have experienced, these jobs can become messy with the brake oil. Make sure you catch it all and dispose of it properly. It’s is really nasty stuff. When you get it on paint or chrome make sure to wash it off very thoroughly.

When working on brakes you really need to have a can of break cleaner fluid at the ready. It is the only stuff that will allow you to clean all your brake parts easily and quickly. Always clean the discs/rotos with brake cleaner before inserting the pads and once again when everything is in place prior to rotating the wheel. Any dirt, grime, brake fluid left will stick on the brake pad and ruin them.

I would keep a very close look at those banjo bolts and pistons. Make sure no leaks. Even if you see a tiny drop, make sure to act upon it. One drop is potentially a time bomb in your brake system. It means something could give any minute. With all kinds of horrible consequences!

Jeroen

[Vmk1950]

Originally Posted by jomson13

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your opinions, suggestions and questions.

It is always good to see once, how it is repaired before putting our own hands on it. In this case, if the caliper is not fixed properly or brake bleeding is not done correctly, it may lead to an accident while driving. These days bikes / cars are very complex than what was made a decade back. Hence good understanding is needed before we attempt to repair ourselves. And right tools are must.

In earlier days most of the repairs of my cars / bikes like Amb, Premier, RE, Yezdi, Hero, I do it my self. But cant do the same in modern day cars since they are totally different with lots of electronics.

If you see once how it is done once then you can do it but it will still call for some expertise. Good Luck to you.

[Sam800]

Well, DIY has its own share of joys of completion and the headache involved with it. I too once tightened the air bleed valve on my pulsar 150 so much that its thread got damaged and it wouldn't fit tightly, no matter what I did, it would just refuse to tighten. I went to nearby FNG to repair it back.

Also, you mentioned the new brake oil you're using is Bosch dot 3. Dot 3 always comes red in colour. Dot 4 comes in yellow colour. I think your old oil was dot 4.

See the master cylinder, which oil is written on it to use. If its dot 3, you can use either of dot 3 or 4. If its written dot 4, I'll recommend you using dot 4.

Dot 3 has higher wet performance but it also gets heat up pretty quick compared to dot 4. While, dot 4 has lesser wet performance but it can withstand higher temperatures while frequent braking.

All the best, happy motoring

[sureshkishore]

I had air in my interceptor brake lines. I bled the fluid and it is ok now. But while bleeding out the old fluid i could notice that the reservoir had some jelly like sludge a the bottom. I was planning to drain the fluid completely and clean the reservoir. But now I fear that it could cause air entering the system. What should I do to have the reservoir and lines cleaned.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by sureshkishore

But now I fear that it could cause air entering the system. What should I do to have the reservoir and lines cleaned.

You might be able to clean the reservoir with no problem. I use a large syringe to draw out all the fluid. Next use some rags that don’t leave bits.

You can just refill the reservoir and you won’t have to bleed the system. Just make sure not to accidentally step on the brake with the reservoir empty.

But as your post suggested, this gunk is everywhere so you need to properly flush the system.

So with reservoir filled with fresh fluid, bleed the system till fresh air comes out the bleed valve. Make sure to keep an eye on the level in the reservoir and keep adding to it. This will ensure no air, only fluid enters the system!

Ideally you use a simple pressure bleeder, but you can it the traditionally way by pushing the brake too. It’s really a two man job. One on the brake one on the bleeder valve.

This is the exact same procedure garages use when they refresh your brake fluid. I would expect your brake fluid to have been in there for a while? Your owner manual will tell you how often the brake fluids need refreshing. When done in accordance with the above, no air will enter the system! You are just pushing the old fluid and gunk out with the new fluid.

Jeroen

[jomson13]

Sorry for the delay in replying, had quite a busy week.
The bike was being used for the regular office commute and the brake worked fine except for the spongy feel at the lever.
I did a quick bleed yesterday and was able to get a few air bubbles out. The lever feels much better now.

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

If your ABS module makes a hissing sound as you pull the lever- and more so the quicker you pull- there is air in your ABS module.

But, if you ride regularly, get the bleeding done properly in a shop/service centre that has the required OBD tool. The pressurised bleeder is not strictly necessary; but I'd want to get it done in one, just for the peace of mind. The 'sponginess' in brakes won't get progressively worse till it gives up. The hygroscopic fluid will absorb moisture, boil as you brake hard and blow the line; so, the loss of braking will be sudden, as you ride and brake, and not predictable.

Make it the first thing you do when you ride, and might as well replace the banjo bolt seal/washer while you're at it.

Thanks for the feedback.
I did not hear any sound while pumping the lever during bleeding. My guess is that air has not entered the ABS unit (placed under the petrol tank). There is one line going in (1- reservoir to ABS unit) and one coming out (2- ABS unit to caliper). When I got the banjo bolt out I lost quite a bit of fluid from line 2 but line 1 was still showing fluid till the bottom of the reservoir. Whatever air would have gotten in through the reservoir would not have reached the ABS unit. Air that entered from line 2 would not have reached the unit since that line too did not get fully drained out.

In any case, the bike is due for its annual service and I will get the mechanic to check 'my work' thoroughly. He's the same guy who pushed the pistons back into the caliper and is aware of the shenanigans that I have been upto. I do not avail services at the ASC since they are too busy and often make a mess of a properly functioning bike.

Will procure the banjo bolt and seals for the next time I open up the line.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

for something like brakes make sure you know what you are doing. Or work alongside with somebody who does.

I am not sure why you could not push back the pistons. Very odd. I hope the seals have not been damaged?

On those banjo bolts, there should be a washer on each side? I can see only one in the image. You are not supposed to re-use those washer. Either replace them or anneal them.

Ideally the bolts holding the callipers should be tightened with a torque wrench to the manufacturer specification. Also, you might want to check this, often these bolts are not to be re-used. So new bolts need to be used. Might be different on your bike, I don’t know. Many mechanics will re-use the bolts, but it’s not a smart thing to do, if the official procedure is to use new ones.

These bolts only hold the calliper properly with the correct (sometimes new) bolts torqued to the correct specification. To little torque or too much can create a problem.

I would keep a very close look at those banjo bolts and pistons. Make sure no leaks. Even if you see a tiny drop, make sure to act upon it. One drop is potentially a time bomb in your brake system. It means something could give any minute. With all kinds of horrible consequences!

Jeroen

Thank you for the suggestions.

I have a digital copy of the service manual and was too lazy / cocky to not refer to it before starting this DIY. This will not happen again.

Now that you mention it - The force applied was not exactly perpendicular to the pistons. Will keep this in mind for the next time.
I've been monitoring the caliper and banjo bolt areas for leaks - nothing so far.

The manual shows only one washer. I will procure a new one for the next time.



Another item to be procured is the torque wrench, hopefully will have that one by the time of the next DIY.

Originally Posted by Vmk1950

If you see once how it is done once then you can do it but it will still call for some expertise. Good Luck to you.

Thanks. The only reason I attempt such tasks it due to easy access to you tube videos and my proximity to the FNG

Originally Posted by Sam800

Also, you mentioned the new brake oil you're using is Bosch dot 3. Dot 3 always comes red in colour. Dot 4 comes in yellow colour. I think your old oil was dot 4.

See the master cylinder, which oil is written on it to use. If its dot 3, you can use either of dot 3 or 4. If its written dot 4, I'll recommend you using dot 4.

Dot 3 has higher wet performance but it also gets heat up pretty quick compared to dot 4. While, dot 4 has lesser wet performance but it can withstand higher temperatures while frequent braking.

All the best, happy motoring

Thank you. I used DOT 3 since the reservoir cap mentions either DOT 3 or DOT 4 and the DOT 3 bottle was available at the shop.
But after reading your post, I checked the service manual and the recommended fluid is only DOT 4



Whom should I follow?

Although I have flushed the system and could visibly see the new (red) fluid push out the old (yellow) fluid; some amount of mixing would have happened.

Should I change back to DOT 4?

Originally Posted by sureshkishore

What should I do to have the reservoir and lines cleaned.

Like Jeroen suggested, you can use new brake fluid to flush out the old fluid along with the gunk. Having a friend to help out is better - its quite cumbersome to do alone.

[Sam800]

Should I change back to DOT 4?

I'll say, if the cap says dot 3 and you've no problem in your bike then go on with dot 3 till the next brake fluid change which will be in 2yrs/20,000 kms whichever is earlier. Like i said, dot 3 braking systems will happily accept dot 3 and 4 as well. No worries there, mate !!