[FlankerFury]

A few days after EICMA 2024, Honda filed an application for a trademark on the name, "GB500", in USA, at the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) and at the European Union Intellectual Property Office (EUIPO).
While this doesn't guarantee a launch or existence of such a product, speculations are rife about what a GB500 could be.
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I first came across this news via a Rushlane article a while ago, but it felt a little, clickbait-ish. Various publications, even international one's have since carried this news.
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For reference, in the 80's, Honda released a motorcycle named the GB500 TT. It was powered by a 4 stroke, air cooled 4V engine with styling reminiscent of the British singles of the 50's.

Image Source

The India made CB350 series are sold internationally as the GB350 series.

Since the original was powered by an air cooled single, it is speculated that it could be a rebored version of the existing 350 engine. If this is indeed the case, it would be exciting for the Indian market as it would, in all probability, be built in India.

This is supported by circumstantial evidence as mentioned in this article from a Japanese publication, young-machine.

At the media test ride event held when the GB350 series was first announced, the crank and cylinder head were exhibited at the venue. What caught our attention was the distance between the cylinder bore and the bolts that secure the cylinder head.

When I measured it with a handheld scale, the cylinder head's outer circumference of φ70.0mm was the same diameter as the cylinder, but when I measured it with a tape measure, I found that the stud bolts and the cylinder outer wall were about 23mm thick. This means that if I leave about 15mm of thickness as a safety margin, the bore will be φ86mm, and the displacement will be about 525cc. Calculating backwards from 500cc, a bore diameter of φ84mm will be sufficient.

the GB350's bore diameter has a considerable margin of error.

The other option for the powerplant is the tried and tested, 471cc liquid cooled parallel twin engine that's used in various bikes such as, NX500, CB500 Hornet, CBR500R, Rebel 500 and SCL500.

Image Source

If it is to be an Interceptor 650 competitor, the PTwin engine would make sense since it slots in perfectly at the A2 license limits on HP.

If Honda does make an air-cooled, 500cc, single-cylinder engine, expect to see performance figures somewhere in the ballpark of 30hp (similar to the original).

Sources:
young-machine
ACI
Cycle World
Mottorad

[FireBlade]

Not a surprise actually as the current CB/GB350 with 21bhp is going to be too underpowered for wide-open Yankee roads. Boring the current bore from 70mm to 84mm(whilst retaining the current 90.5mm stroke) does the job of bumping up the CC to 500, which with 27/28 odd HP shall suffice for a retro thumper even in US. This conversion from 350cc to 500cc shall remind us about another company doing the same some years ago. With that said GB= Great Britain. That's all there is to say

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

This means that if I leave about 15mm of thickness as a safety margin, the bore will be φ86mm, and the displacement will be about 525cc. Calculating backwards from 500cc, a bore diameter of φ84mm will be sufficient.

Erstwhile Bullet 500 bore × stroke = 84mm × 90mm.

Of course, being Honda - we should assume this to be another co-incidence, just like the CB350 motor has the same specs and sound unlike any Honda before it!

Now waiting for the Honda Himalayan and Scram too, seems to be taking quite long that one!

[tchsvy]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Erstwhile Bullet 500 bore × stroke = 84mm × 90mm.

Of course, being Honda - we should assume this to be another co-incidence, just like the CB350 motor has the same specs and sound unlike any Honda before it!

Now waiting for the Honda Himalayan and Scram too, seems to be taking quite long that one!

I don't really mind for two reasons: A Honda Himalayan will be reliable one (I believe Honda will only take ideas from RE, they won't copy their mistakes, broken frames et al). Two: imitation is the best form of flattery, if a giant like Honda copies your ideas/products, you (RE) may have done some great things. Indian boys are inspiring the Japs, a good thing no!?

[asininite]

Originally Posted by tchsvy

I don't really mind for two reasons: A Honda Himalayan will be reliable one (I believe Honda will only take ideas from RE, they won't copy their mistakes, broken frames et al). Two: imitation is the best form of flattery, if a giant like Honda copies your ideas/products, you (RE) may have done some great things. Indian boys are inspiring the Japs, a good thing no!?

That is wishful thinking, the stories of CB350s rusting are as famous as their bikes. In trying to copy the RE legacy, they have also copied the legacy build quality.

Hence I don't have huge hopes that this will be a hugely reliable product.

[tchsvy]

Originally Posted by asininite

That is wishful thinking, the stories of CB350s rusting are as famous as their bikes. In trying to copy the RE legacy, they have also copied the legacy build quality.

Hence I don't have huge hopes that this will be a hugely reliable product.

I myself own a 2022 CB350, and mine has not rusted anywhere, runs butter smooth, is very comfortable to ride day in and day out in the Hyderabad traffic. In fact we have two CBs and one RS in my circle, and we three share these sentiments. For every rusty CB, there are at least three non rusty bikes out there! I have a very good ownership experience with the bike, hence the optimistic out look.

[asininite]

Originally Posted by tchsvy

I myself own a 2022 CB350, and mine has not rusted anywhere, runs butter smooth, is very comfortable to ride day in and day out in the Hyderabad traffic. In fact we have two CBs and one RS in my circle, and we three share these sentiments. For every rusty CB, there are at least three non rusty bikes out there! I have a very good ownership experience with the bike, hence the optimistic out look.

So I take it that 1 in every 4 CB350s rust, whereas I've almost never seen any of the J-series RE 350s rust, and they sell 10x times more than the Honda 350s. For a Honda, whose reliability is supposed to be its primary forte, this is not good.
Even Shumi from Motorinc jokes about this, so this is a pretty popular issue too.

I'm of the opinion the current crop of Hondas have just average build quality. N250 felt better put together than the CB300F. CB300R tank panels cave in with a press from my thumb. We don't need to discuss the CB350. NX500 is good, but priced stratospherically. HMSI isn't doing too great here.

[jaganm]

Where did you get the statistic of 1 in 4 Honda cb350 rusting? Having owned a highness for close to 4 years, interacting with lots of owners during Honda rides, I know at least 40-50 riders personally and not a single one has got rusting issues. So My feeling is that it is a very minor issue and something that the dealer handles if the customer complains. Do take into account that for very minor issues that affect a very small number of users, Honda has issued recalls and if this was a prevalent issues it would’ve been addressed.

You can’t take Shumi seriously when it comes to Honda. Not sure of the exact issue probably has been black listed by the company and hence can’t take a neutral view. Fair enough, he’s an opinion guy and as long as you understand that.

[tchsvy]

Mine was a tongue-in-cheek comment to say that I have heard more positive experiences than negative (actually zero, as I clearly stated in my post) in my circle. That's my experience of owning the bike, not just taken from the internet. Honda should be bashed for many things they do wrong, the company is by no means perfect, but bashing them every chance we get is not the right thing to do I think. That goes for any brand, praise them when they get things right and bash them when they don't. Classic does not rust, great going RE, frames brake on Himmy, you need to get your act together RE.

[FireBlade]

Originally Posted by asininite

So I take it that 1 in every 4 CB350s rust, whereas I've almost never seen any of the J-series RE 350s rust, and they sell 10x times more than the Honda 350s. For a Honda, whose reliability is supposed to be its primary forte, this is not good.
Even Shumi from Motorinc jokes about this, so this is a pretty popular issue too.

Shumi's opinion regarding Honda in general and CB350 in particular should be taken with a bucketful of salt. He seems extremely biased against both the brand and the bike. We shouldn't take his opinion as gospel.

I'm of the opinion the current crop of Hondas have just average build quality. N250 felt better put together than the CB300F. CB300R tank panels cave in with a press from my thumb. We don't need to discuss the CB350. NX500 is good, but priced stratospherically. HMSI isn't doing too great here.

How many Honda's do you own, mate? I currently own 4. My Unicorn BS6 has done 67k kms in last 3 years without a single breakdown. My CBR250R has done 18k+ kms in last 8 kms, once again without a single breakdown. My Hornet 2.0, which I bough last year is running like charm and my latest CB350 feels amazingly built and put together.

Don't get my wrong. Hondas aren't perfect by any means but neither is any other bike or brand. And talking about sales figure, if every 1 out of 4 Hondas rust then why are they the 2nd largest two-wheeler company in sales, month after month?

In fact, RE is lucky that CB350 is not available everywhere like Classic/Bullet 350. 'Cause if it does, then it won't take it too much time to clock 20k figures from the measly 3k it is doing now, thanks to limited sales/service network. It's that damn good

[asininite]

Originally Posted by FireBlade

Shumi's opinion regarding Honda in general and CB350 in particular should be taken with a bucketful of salt. He seems extremely biased against both the brand and the bike. We shouldn't take his opinion as gospel.

Going off-topic here but just because a reviewer doesn't share the same opinion about your favorite bike/brand does not mean that they are biased. Shumis Motorinc is a very black-and-white approach to journalism, but even he always maintains that if you like a bike he will help you with the purchase decision even if he doesn't like it himself. In that case I don't really see any 'bias'. The only reason there aren't any Hondas featured is because Honda doesn't provide media bikes. Anyways I was only mentioning how even a relatively large reviewer has begun to comment on the rusting situation

How many Honda's do you own, mate? I currently own 4. My Unicorn BS6 has done 67k kms in last 3 years without a single breakdown. My CBR250R has done 18k+ kms in last 8 kms, once again without a single breakdown. My Hornet 2.0, which I bough last year is running like charm and my latest CB350 feels amazingly built and put together.

Don't get my wrong. Hondas aren't perfect by any means but neither is any other bike or brand. And talking about sales figure, if every 1 out of 4 Hondas rust then why are they the 2nd largest two-wheeler company in sales, month after month?

I would like to draw attention to how I specifically mentioned the 'current crop' of Hondas.

The OBD2 Unicorn has plethora of problems, as is detailed in a post in this thread. Even my trusty mechanic has advised me to stay away and to not recommend the new Unicorns. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ems-faced.html (2023 Honda Unicorn Review BS6 OBD2 & Problems Faced)

CBR 250R was a good motorcycle, but Honda doesn't seem to deem us worthy of it as they have discontinued the 150 and 250.

Hornet 2.0 is an average motorcycle at best, and sits in a no-mans land between the 200s and 160s. It's more expensive than the RTR 160 / N160 / Xtreme 160 4v all of which are well rounded bikes and priced closely to the RTR 200 and N250 both of which are superior motorcycles. Factor in the lack of dual-channel ABS and you have no reason to really consider the Hornet.

Your CB350 feels really well-made and thats good. I've however seen and experienced first-hand plenty of rusting and paint chipping and general quality issues for me to refrain from recommending that bike. The handlebar bearings also can rust, due to which the handlebar begins to wobble, which is not a new issue aswell. Older CB350s also faced this. https://www.reddit.com/r/indianbikes...a_hness_issue/

In fact, RE is lucky that CB350 is not available everywhere like Classic/Bullet 350. 'Cause if it does, then it won't take it too much time to clock 20k figures from the measly 3k it is doing now, thanks to limited sales/service network. It's that damn good

I wouldn't say so. RE sells primarily due to nostalgia and that brand value. Everyone and their grand-father knows what a Bullet is. That nostalgia is the primary driving factor for getting a Bullet/Classic in the first place. The 30000 people buying a Classic every month don't buy it because it is the best bike in the segment, they buy it because it is Royal Enfield. Honda was only ever going to garner sales from the population who doesn't want a RE.

So by benchmarking the UCE Classic 350 and deciding to copy it as it is, with slight improvements here and there they were never going to make an excellent bike, just a 'Honda ki Bullet'. The long gearing and overdrive 5th gear exists primarily for better mileage, but sacrifices the low-end in the process meaning you keep having to rev the bike out in the city. The loud (and rather obnoxious) exhaust was to appease the Bullet fans who slap on aftermarket exhausts. The exhaust was one of the reasons why I couldn't keep riding the bike after 40km and moved back to a 411 Himmy on a trip.

The reason why other brands like the Triumph-Bajaj and Hero-Harley collabs succeeded was because they tapped into the crowd who didn't want a Bullet and provided them with a much better product at that price range. Speed 400 costs just a bit above the top-spec Classic 350, and that is a 40hp light well-built bike with no compromises except for high-rev vibration. Speed T4 is a very easy-going relaxed machine that has no sense of strain on the highways whilst feeling very agile on its feet. Mavrick 440 and Harley x440 all improve on the long-stroke formula, with a bigger better engine and beefier suspension whilst having bountiful amounts of torque to cruise effortlessly. Mavrick doesn't sell in good numbers sadly, though the Harley does. Even from REs own stable, the Guerilla 450 exists for those wanting aggression and fun instead of a chill easy-going nature.

Originally Posted by jaganm

Where did you get the statistic of 1 in 4 Honda cb350 rusting? Having owned a highness for close to 4 years, interacting with lots of owners during Honda rides, I know at least 40-50 riders personally and not a single one has got rusting issues. So My feeling is that it is a very minor issue and something that the dealer handles if the customer complains. Do take into account that for very minor issues that affect a very small number of users, Honda has issued recalls and if this was a prevalent issues it would’ve been addressed.

You can’t take Shumi seriously when it comes to Honda. Not sure of the exact issue probably has been black listed by the company and hence can’t take a neutral view. Fair enough, he’s an opinion guy and as long as you understand that.

I was pointing at tchsvy's comment about there being 3 non-rusty CB350s for every rusty CB350. However the issue is very real and I know personally 3 owners who've had their chassis rust to some extent and the paint flake off. It's not covered under warranty as far as I know, in many cases online and offline the dealer provides the option of painting over the rusty portions. It is a prevalent issue, and I only brought up Shumi to show that even the reviewers have started acknowledging the rusting. Shumi dislikes Hondas as it is not his type of motorcycle, that I know.

[jaganm]

I’d wager to say that most people who ride the RE and Honda back to back AND don’t have any prebuilt emotional attachment to the RE/Bullet brand will look at the Honda favourably, it is that good. The only thing that’s stopping them selling 3-4x more is that a lot of the country has no way to buy one.

It’s ultimately a choice of the individual. I think where I have a problem with Shumi and his sidey is that they have blinkers over a significant slice of the market and cow tow to manufacturers that treat them well. So, I consider them opinion peddlers rather than an authoritative voice on the biking experience.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by jaganm

I’d wager to say that most people who ride the RE and Honda back to back AND don’t have any prebuilt emotional attachment to the RE/Bullet brand will look at the Honda favourably, it is that good.

IMHO, it is the other way around.

Bike v/s bike - The new generation RE 350 series is better than the CB350 series, especially the Classic.

Brand v/s brand - The Honda sales happen because the brand is supposed to be more reliable and trustworthy, a reputation they have rightly earned over the years. If the CB350 was from Jawa or BSA, it wouldn't be the same.

Originally Posted by jaganm

The only thing that’s stopping them selling 3-4x more is that a lot of the country has no way to buy one.

Sorry to disagree, but Bigwing isn't a small network anymore - it has around 150 showrooms across the country. RE may have 2x the showrooms, but definitely not 5x more.

The fact that it sells less than 5% of a Classic has nothing to do with showroom availability.

[jaganm]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Sorry to disagree, but Bigwing isn't a small network anymore - it has around 150 showrooms across the country. RE may have 2x the showrooms, but definitely not 5x more.

The fact that it sells less than 5% of a Classic has nothing to do with showroom availability.

If the 150 showrooms is correct then it is not 5x , it is a lot more stark. As a quick web search shows, RE has close to 2000 dealers across 750 cities.

https://www.bikewale.com/dealer-showrooms/royalenfield/

Regarding bike comparison, it’s an individual choice. My point was that the vast majority of RE buyers don’t even sample a CB350 or a HD or a Triumph. If they did, RE sales will be a bit lower

[asininite]

Originally Posted by jaganm

I’d wager to say that most people who ride the RE and Honda back to back AND don’t have any prebuilt emotional attachment to the RE/Bullet brand will look at the Honda favourably, it is that good. The only thing that’s stopping them selling 3-4x more is that a lot of the country has no way to buy one.

Originally Posted by jaganm

If the 150 showrooms is correct then it is not 5x , it is a lot more stark. As a quick web search shows, RE has close to 2000 dealers across 750 cities.

https://www.bikewale.com/dealer-showrooms/royalenfield/

That is the major pull of the Royal Enfield brand. The 30000 monthly sales of the Classic is not some fluke, it was decades of marketing and instilling the image of a premium macho bike into the minds of the common people. People primarily buy an RE for the feel, the image and the pride in owning a Bullet.

RE is a marketing company first, bike manufacturer later. Ask anyone on the road what a Bullet is and they will have an answer. Ask them about the CB350 and most will scratch their heads. 'I ride a Royal Enfield' has more grandeur than 'I ride a Honda'.

Originally Posted by jaganm

It’s ultimately a choice of the individual. I think where I have a problem with Shumi and his sidey is that they have blinkers over a significant slice of the market and cow tow to manufacturers that treat them well. So, I consider them opinion peddlers rather than an authoritative voice on the biking experience.

In what way are they opinion peddlers? I haven't seen a single promotion on their channel for a specific brand or bike. Infact I'd wager the opposite and that Motorinc is one of the few unbiased biking reviewers out there.

When a bike that felt stiff on Barcelona roads (Guerilla 450) is claimed by Rishabh Mody from Autocar to be plush on Indian roads, which is marred by potholes and uneven surfaces, and better than the Speed 400 I am left scratching my head. It was only after a test-ride that I had come to appreciate the marketing prowess of Royal Enfield. A fully-paid trip to Spain is enough to sway the opinions of the majority of motorcycle journalists in India. Motorinc however stuck to their guns and claimed that the Guerilla is not plush but stiff and uncomfortable for longer durations.