[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by jaganm

There's nothing more irritating than someone online repeatedly telling you why your choice is bad.

You don't need to seek validation if the product you bought keeps you happy

The same Shumi who calls out Honda for being a copycat with this series also says he would be happy for the owners who have opted for it, but he refuses to recommend it because of this. This is repeated in multiple videos and he has nothing against the brand or bias on how he is treated - evident on how highly he praises other products like the CB500X/NX500.

But then we do this against some of the most experienced journalists because they don't validate our purchase and don't agree with his stance on the product -

Originally Posted by jaganm

I think where I have a problem with Shumi and his sidey is that they have blinkers over a significant slice of the market and cow tow to manufacturers that treat them well. So, I consider them opinion peddlers rather than an authoritative voice on the biking experience.

Coming back to the topic of GB500 - it surely is shaping up to be another copy and is going to get even more criticism. Things are only going to get worse when the Honda Himalayan and Scram also comes out looking and feeling exactly like the rival.

[asininite]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

You don't need to seek validation if the product you bought keeps you happy

The same Shumi who calls out Honda for being a copycat with this series also says he would be happy for the owners who have opted for it, but he refuses to recommend it because of this. This is repeated in multiple videos and he has nothing against the brand or bias on how he is treated - evident on how highly he praises other products like the CB500X/NX500.

This is something I find myself to be annoyed by, because I keep seeing a reviewer with decades of motorcycling experience get accused of 'bias' and 'fair treatment to other manufacturers' just because he has an opinion that doesn't validate their bike. I might be prejudicing here, but the biggest crowd of people that claim Shumi is biased are CB350 owners, eventhough it is his subjective opinion that the CB350 is not a Honda but a Royal Enfield with a Honda badge, and people can simply not agree with his opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr1zyrucrdI

I don't see Speed 400 owners complaining about the 'Motorinc bias', all I hear is 'he is right but I am happy with this bike even with it not having a good top-end'. If Shumi was really biased against Triumph due to a debacle with the Tiger 660 media ride, then why would he speak so highly of the Scrambler 400x (in the Speed T4 episode, he said the only choice he would make if he had to buy a Triumph right now was in the colours of the 400x) and Speed T4? That doesn't seem like bias to me, that sounds like subjective opinions.

[BullettuPaandi]

What I expect from Honda is a bit more thoughtfulness and attention to detail on such bikes. There's nothing necessarily wrong in looking at the Classic's market and wanting to have a piece of it. But those who attempt this must keep in mind that this is not everything that got RE to where it is now.

The CB350 is an interesting proposition and does solve a very real issue with even the J-series 350- comfortable cruise speed. But I submit to you, if this had ever been the top priority, this market that everyone and their sister companies are trying to tap into, would've never come to be. It would be understandable, if Honda had decided to take the 'play to your strength' approach here for the first time around. Now that it's clear to them that that's not all we want, I expect them to try something else that at least they've learnt from their first attempt. But, such commitment to a market- especially ours- is something that has never happened from Honda. I think they're generally more invested in Motorsports as a company, and everywhere else, they just try and use what they kind of already have looking for another duck that lays golden eggs- like the Activa, (used to be) City, etc.

Motorcycles- particularly the kind of motorcycles under this discussion- are a different breed of products in this regard, from scooters and cars. Aside from utility and reliability, these customers- perhaps more than any in the entire Indian market- look for design, aesthetics, authenticity and largely consider the product as an extension of their expression of style. I'm not saying the CBs are poorly designed; they are not. They just lack thought put into it; both in the individual bikes and in differentiating their derivatives like, Scramblers, Roadsters, etc. You can see how Honda's current line-up, in this regard, is nowhere close to RE's. This to me screams of said lack of thought and commitment.

I don't know if the British whooped this into our collective behinds while they were here, but there's something about the typical simple, timeless, craftmanship-focused designs predominantly found in British motorcycles, that 'hits the spot' for us. And I truly believe this is the most significant factor that contributes to prolonged, peak sales numbers of such motorcycles, that they're after.

I would still easily recommend the CB350 to say, someone looking for a reliable, comfortable and easy-to-use bike under 3L, especially if they're middle-aged. But if I'm betting on which of the current 'wannabes' will have an impact on RE's sales figures, I'd rather place it on the Jawa/Classic Legends of Mahindra. They seem to have gotten the hard part right- meaning the design. They only have to iron out niggles from the current ones, not mess up pricing and the rest, I believe, is just logistics.

As a general suggestion, avoid leaning too much on reviews from businesses that rely solely on few individuals and their opinions (besides 'that are largely in for the money' of course). The way I see it, if there CAN be such individuals with 'thorough knowledge' and a perfect grasp of market dynamics, or whatever it is that are generally regarded as redeeming qualities of a 'reviewer', well such individuals would make Market Research a hell of a lot easier, and would hence be too valuable to be speaking to a camera for a living. So, they don't really exist. We're all mere mortals with opinions and an internet connection. It just so happens to be that the video+bgm format of this opinion broadcast, is rather influential; which I prefer to stay away from, as I see that as inherently negative (I mean, it has the word 'flu' on it!)

Put your money where your butt felt good on.

[jaganm]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

You don't need to seek validation if the product you bought keeps you happy

Of course as an owner, my like/dislike of a vehicle is based on my usage and experience. You'd have to be daft to think that my enjoyment diminishes because someone on the internet feels differently.

When it comes to Shumi specifically, I do agree with a lot of what he says with regard to motorcycling, but feels he misses out on understanding what these Honda bikes are. Especially, when a lot of the love for RE bikes is not based on hard performance but amorphous things like feel, soul etc

Just like maybe I don't understand what the RE bikes stand for, I just prefer the better riding experience of the Honda over the RE. So, call me biased in favour of the Honda.

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

They just lack thought put into it; both in the individual bikes and in differentiating their derivatives like, Scramblers, Roadsters, etc. You can see how Honda's current line-up, in this regard, is nowhere close to RE's. This to me screams of said lack of thought and commitment.


Put your money where your butt felt good on.

What makes you think Honda has not put the thought into it? They went out to build a better RE while adhering to the same general design principles, a classic motorcycle, a long stroke engine and added modern touches that address most of the pain points. You may feel cruising speed is not important, but others may value the higher cruising speed. The ability to engineer a bike that is the same weight but feels 30 kg lighter, makes me laugh when RE introduces one overweight bike after another. Even on the design, they are attracting a lot of people who are not idealogically bound to the RE cult, those people just care that I want a great looking bike that is easy to ride and is reliable.

Completely agree with your last statement, Put your money where your butt felt good on.

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by jaganm

What makes you think Honda has not put the thought into it? They went out to build a better RE while adhering to the same general design principles, a classic motorcycle, a long stroke engine and added modern touches that address most of the pain points. You may feel cruising speed is not important, but others may value the higher cruising speed. The ability to engineer a bike that is the same weight but feels 30 kg lighter, makes me laugh when RE introduces one overweight bike after another. Even on the design, they are attracting a lot of people who are not idealogically bound to the RE cult, those people just care that I want a great looking bike that is easy to ride and is reliable.

"Same design principles"? I'm sorry, but there's nothing besides a round headlamp that puts the CB and RE even in the same ballpark when it comes to "design principles" (This is NOT comparing designs of these two bikes directly with each other, which I've added to in the next paras). It is not a classic motorcycle. None of this is to say that it is poor design; which I've mentioned in the previous post as well. You sound mistaken about my previous post; I suggest you give it a re-read and keep in mind that it's not about any individual bike's pros or cons.

You can look up the CB/SL series of bikes of the yesteryears, and end up looking at all sorts of bikes; would make you think perhaps the 'B' in 'CB' stands for 'broad'. Yet, Honda has managed to make the CB350 not resemble any single one of them. Because they've never made such an effort to do so every single time they set out to sell a CB, which is how we now have a 'broad' CB in the first place. They have never tried to do so, because every single time it was only about that particular bike- there's no "retro" back then. Now that they claim to do so, I'd expect them to have taken the time to reflect upon their own lineage of CBs and arrive at a Retro design that actually looks descended from historical CBs, and doesn't simply rely on how round the headlamps are.

On the other hand, having never had to fit every CB into a single description of 'form', is part of what made most CBs really good bikes, in my opinion. This applies to the current CB350 as well. So then, IF, what makes a 'CB' a 'CB' is not so much about about the 'form' and rather about the 'function'- 'how well a CB Shine takes on efficient commuting', 'how well a CB300R takes regular streets (with a bit of 'R'), 'how well a CB500X takes on touring with ease', etc.- I'll happily grant a pass on the CBs for just 'looking their own way' and 'doing their own thing', and chalk off the personal dissatisfaction about the 'retro-ness' of the bike as just 'took too much marketing'. This is why I said:

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

I would still easily recommend the CB350 to say, someone looking for a reliable, comfortable and easy-to-use bike under 3L

Because given that it objectively cruises better than the competition, if it looks good to you, none of what I'm blabbering about on this post matters. But, given that the discussion is not a particular individual's preference, and rather the trend of an entire specific market, I don't this is going to cut it, for what they're trying to do.

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

these customers- perhaps more than any in the entire Indian market- look for design, aesthetics, authenticity and largely consider the product as an extension of their expression of style.

It is easy to call such ardent following of a particular style, a cult. But such is design in general; it is largely a language and no different from any other. Preferences, style (or) taste, grammar are pretty much arbitrary, and it's not so much of "ideological bound" to one as much of 'pathological resistance to other'. I can learn Japanese and like Haiku, but I speak Tamil so I'm always just going like Tirukkural better (extended this analogy to Kannada/Vachana, Marati/Ovi, Hindi/Doha, etc. depending on your region). Such roots in tradition has value in Motorcycle designs as well, and honestly the only redeeming quality that has given RE the advantage. Every single one of the companies that have tried and still try- be it Benelli, Classic Legends, Honda- know that this is not a cult, and that people desperate for more competition in this space offering more reliability, uniqueness, etc. They must have known this from their market research, if not they wouldn't have tried.

In case you still aren't convinced, I'd like put forth a couple of questions to wonder about and arrive at your own guess/opinion/conclusion:

1. What likely could've Mahindra learnt from Mojo, and has applied in their approach with Classic Legends?

2. Why would well established companies like TVS entertain buying companies like Norton?

[FireBlade]

^^The old CB series definitely isn't the inspiration behind the current CB350 series. In fact, its international naming as GB(which stands for Great Britain) makes more sense as the classic British long-stroke classics like Enfield G2 etc. were its inspiration. The phrase "Honda ki Bullet" has definitely some merit in it

That said, I like my CB350 Classic better than J-Series Bullet/Classic in most ways. So, in the end, it's always about what 'floats your boat'

[Aditya]

Topic has been discussed enough. Thread closed.