[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by aargee

AND - For a 10 Km average run per day {or even 13 Km}, fossil fueled scooters are cheaper to run in 10 years' time frame.

The thing is if you are buying a new scooter, it really doesn't make any sense getting a fossil fueled scooter anymore. A used second hand ICE scooter - sure, but who the heck has the time to go out and find one without getting scammed?

A cheap no nonsense reliable e scooter from Honda is exactly what we need.

[JithinR]

This scooter is something that I have been hearing about for years now. One of the reasons I didn't pull the trigger on Hero Vida (despite it having removable batteries that I need) is simply the poor build that keeps coming up in ownership reviews for that product and non-functional app experience.

I knew Honda's product will be sorted in QC. Didn't expect Honda engineers to be lose the plot on the design brief though.

Who will get this scooter if you can't charge it at home? If I had a swap station on my way to work then I would consider it. But I live in a rented accommodation (hence the need for removable batteries). What if my next apartment/office is not located close to a battery swap station?

Didn't these guys just remove one of the major benefits of an EV (the ability to charge it at home)?

What I want to understand is that if Hero can let us charge batteries at home why can't Honda do it? Does it have to do with degradation of battery units' life due to home charging?

Are there any BAAS scooters that also support charging at home?

[skviknaraj]

I believe Honda took the safe way with respect to removable batteries.

A few points from my point of view:

1. One will need to carry the battery and handle the battery with care. if you are charging the battery inside the house and there was a something goes wrong, it would be disastrous in a dwelling place. You don't have people storing petrol in their houses right. Also it would be a PR nightmare.

2. Providing removable batteries that cannot be charged at home is just like fueling in a regular petrol bunk. A small caveat is that the number of petrol pumps is larger. Considering that Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda might be using this system, we can expect more of these battery stations to pop up. From what I have seen in TBHP, a lot of these stations have already popped up in Bengaluru. Kudos to Honda on getting the required infrastructure up.

3. Also, if these battery stations are located in petrol bunk, you can get your air checked, which apparently a lot of EV owners do tend to miss.

I am in a rented accommodation and my parking is far away from my building. I don't have to worry about lugging the battery all the way to my house.

If this works out, it will be great to have this facility. Lets see how it pans out when it is launched in Chennai.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

The thing is if you are buying a new scooter, it really doesn't make any sense getting a fossil fueled scooter anymore. A used second hand ICE scooter - sure, but who the heck has the time to go out and find one without getting scammed?

A cheap no nonsense reliable e scooter from Honda is exactly what we need.

If I'm buying a new scooter, let me see why it doesn't make sense to get a fossil fueled scooter.

My average distance per year is 3500 Km or <10 Km a day
Let's say FE is about 50 Kmpl, which makes cost per Km ~ 0.5 per Km
Service cost is about Rs 1.5 per Km, which makes total operating cost as Rs 2 per Km. This means I spend about Rs 7000 per year

Let's keep insurance out of the equation as it's nearly the same for both scooters.

So, in 10 years' time frame I spend 70K + 1.1L {cost of scooter} = ~1.8 Lakhs

For the EV, keeping subscription cost aside & insurance nullified, 1.4L + cost of battery changes at 7th/8th year which is roughly 50K works to 1.9 Lakh. This is excluding the service cost every 6 months {roughly Rs 1000 per annum} + per Km cost of few paisa.

PS: This is not an argument; this is plainly putting forth the point
PPS: This is the last statement, I'm not going to continue this further!!

[Revotorqued]

Originally Posted by aargee

If I'm buying a new scooter, let me see why it doesn't make sense to get a fossil fueled scooter.

My average distance per year is 3500 Km or <10 Km a day
Let's say FE is about 50 Kmpl, which makes cost per Km ~ 0.5 per Km
Service cost is about Rs 1.5 per Km, which makes total operating cost as Rs 2 per Km. This means I spend about Rs 7000 per year



PS: This is not an argument; this is plainly putting forth the point
PPS: This is the last statement, I'm not going to continue this further!!

If the FE is 50 Kmpl, the fuel cost per km is 2 per km approx (at 100/liter of petrol). It is no way going to be 0.5 per km. So, the entire calculation needs to be redone.

[amyntor]

Originally Posted by aargee

My average distance per year is 3500 Km or <10 Km a day
Let's say FE is about 50 Kmpl, which makes cost per Km ~ 0.5 per Km
Service cost is about Rs 1.5 per Km, which makes total operating cost as Rs 2 per Km. This means I spend about Rs 7000 per year

Let's keep insurance out of the equation as it's nearly the same for both scooters.

So, in 10 years' time frame I spend 70K + 1.1L {cost of scooter} = ~1.8 Lakhs

Kudos to your maths there. Your calculation works only if you can manage to buy petrol at 25 rupees per litre. Is that possible anywhere in India?

[Gansan]

HMSIL seems to be under the impression just the Activa badge will be enough to sell this ev scooter. I am doubtful. This doesn't seem to compare well with most of the existing products. Scooter customers will want reasonable storage space too.

I think they have flattered to deceive.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by skviknaraj

1. One will need to carry the battery and handle the battery with care. if you are charging the battery inside the house and there was a something goes wrong, it would be disastrous in a dwelling place. You don't have people storing petrol in their houses right. Also it would be a PR nightmare.

Much like how people keep gas cylinders within their kitchen/utility/balcony. It all depends on how well has the product been designed with respect to safety and handling. Haven't heard of any battery related hazard incident from any Hero Vida users but have heard many incidents from Chinese counterparts. And anyway taking the battery to your home should be the last option.

Originally Posted by skviknaraj

2. Providing removable batteries that cannot be charged at home is just like fueling in a regular petrol bunk. A small caveat is that the number of petrol pumps is larger. Considering that Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda might be using this system, we can expect more of these battery stations to pop up. From what I have seen in TBHP, a lot of these stations have already popped up in Bengaluru. Kudos to Honda on getting the required infrastructure up.

What would've been really nice is that if all of the mentioned manufacturers used the same battery and swapping station which would significant boost their coverage across the country but that seems very unlikely currently. I may have a ABC swapping station near my house but my required XYZ swapping station might be 5-10 kms away. And imagine if my battery percentage is so low that I can't make it to the nearest swapping station, then what?
Also idle EV batteries drain charge overtime when scooter is not being used for prolonged periods. Let's say I had 8km range when I parked my scooter but I just came back from a vacation after 15 days and the range now shows 3kms, what do I do now when the swap station is 5km away?

Originally Posted by skviknaraj

I am in a rented accommodation and my parking is far away from my building. I don't have to worry about lugging the battery all the way to my house.

Looks like the Activa E is tailor made for the minor subset of users like you. For the majority its impractical at the current infra stage. Unless they can have an battery swapping station within 2 or 3 kms of everyone's house (like fuel bunks) it doesn't make any sense at all. For swapping a battery if you have to ride 5-10 or more kms per day in opposite direction of your intended route then what's the point? What are you saving here? Money? Time? Nothing.

How difficult was it for Honda to provide a small charging port on the scooter for the batteries? Just comparing this with my Hero Vida, I am so glad my Vida has not 1 not 2 but a total of 4 different ways of charging the battery which really makes it convenient as per the requirements of any individual.

For Vida, the battery charging options are:
1. At home with power socket at parking: Charge the battery directly by plugging the portable charger into the scooter's port.
2. At home without power socket at parking: Take one or both of the battery to home and charge it.
3. Outside near a fast charger: Use the wide fast charger network of Vida or Ather combined.
4. Outside away from a fast charger: Use any 6A socket (petrol bunks, shops, charger stations, etc) to charge your scooter with the portable charger that can be easily carried with the scooter safely stored in it's designated storage slot under the seat.

Bonus points:
1. If battery is dead and you are in middle of nowhere: Pull one of the battery out and get it charged using the portable charger at the nearest 6A charging socket.
2. (Not Tested) If battery is low and you aren't carrying your portable charger: You can borrow the Ather's portable charger (can be plugged directly into the scooter's fast charger port) from your friend or anyone else and charge your battery enough to get you to the nearest Vida/Ather fast charger.

[Senotrius]

Swappable batteries are fine if there's a standard for the battery terminal used across brands. Like AA,AAA battery for torches/electrical devices. OR if there's a standard among charging socket/dock used for the EV's like USB C and 5A/15A sockets among smartphones and electronics devices. This is the bane of EV industry worldwide I feel.
The issue is there's no govt or industry wide accepted policy regarding charging standards or sockets used for EV's. The current situation is like Honda requiring a special petrol nozzle or fuel mix at the pump for their ICE scooter which would be incompatible with Yamaha/Hero and so on.
Similar to Apple using lightning connectors only in the past; they're switching over to USB C.

[asininite]

Originally Posted by skviknaraj

2. Providing removable batteries that cannot be charged at home is just like fueling in a regular petrol bunk. A small caveat is that the number of petrol pumps is larger. Considering that Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda might be using this system, we can expect more of these battery stations to pop up. From what I have seen in TBHP, a lot of these stations have already popped up in Bengaluru. Kudos to Honda on getting the required infrastructure up.

One crucial point you have overlooked is that most ICE scooters have a fuel tank capacity of 5L, a fill-up time of <2 minutes and a range of 250-280km subsequently (Note I am taking the Activa 110 here for reference), whereas the maximum range the electric Activa can give is 100km. That is more than twice the distance I can cover before needing to top up, and given the plethora of petrol pumps nearby filling up is also easy unlike the battery swapping stations which are currently limited to Bangalore.

Batteries also slowly lose their charge. If I were to take a week-long getaway, or due to bad weather I am unable to use the scooter I'd lose about 5-10% charge, whereas with my petrol scooter I'd lose nothing (assuming my tank is in good condition). The loss from escaping petrol vapours due to evaporation is extremely negligible compared to the amount of charge these batteries lose. I can come back from a month-long getaway, start my ICE Activa up and still retain the same range I had when I left.

[W.A.G.7]

The idea of swapping batteries is good. But how do you ensure that the swapped battery is in a good condition. Suppose say someone swaps a battery that discharges quickly (say due to some manufacturing defect) as an example, and if I pick up the battery and put it in my scooter. Then I am at the receiving end inspite of having paid the subscription for it.

How will they ensure that the swapped batteries are always "good" batteries?

[PaddleShifter]

These days many new launch threads get filled with "Why <manufacturer> why?" very quickly.

My take is that if Honda EV scooter can be reliable, specs be damned.

The market at present has the following options if chinese imports and basic EV scooters are removed from analysis.

River: Only available in 2-3 cities
Ather, Simple etc. are good products
Ola: scooters are often sleeping
Vida: goes into limp mode and has issues
Chetak: again has reported issues although not as many as others
TVS iCube is a decent scooter and I see lots of them here in Jamshedpur. The basic and standard models have a claimed range of 75-100km only.

If Honda can make a reliable EV scooter, it should sell in my opinion.

[Sebring]

Then you just put it back, and take out new ones

Originally Posted by W.A.G.7

The idea of swapping batteries is good. But how do you ensure that the swapped battery is in a good condition. Suppose say someone swaps a battery that discharges quickly (say due to some manufacturing defect) as an example, and if I pick up the battery and put it in my scooter.

[jaganm]

I think I’m in the minority here who thinks it’s going to be a big hit. And it’s not just for the Activa name alone. My reasoning is as follows

- the vast majority of people don’t have the ability to charge at home. The current offerings don’t address their need
- setting up public charging for batteries on the scooter is expensive because of the space it takes. Mostly you have 1-2 slots and capacity is a huge constraint. Lot of times you have one scooter just occupying the slot and others waiting
- scooters have a limited range. It is possible to run out of charge during a days run in cities like Bangalore.
- once drained the charging time is in hours which prevents the usage of the vehicle

This addresses the issue in many ways

- assuming their model will be built on rental of battery capacity, this takes away the worry of battery degradation. They can charge 2₹ per km as subscription which covers everything from fuel to battery to service and the customer will come out ahead plus it’ll be a viable business for Honda
- they don’t need a lot of space for these stations. The one I’ve seen best Indiranagar metro just occupies a 2x8 area and has 24 batteries. They can easily have a lot of touch points
- customer range anxiety is gone, you’re no longer limited to 100, can go to 200-300 even if the need is there
- the experience is like a petrol scooter, you have the range in minutes instead of hours
- worst case if you’re stranded, you can always go in another vehicle to get the battery. I’ve been stranded in my current scooters for hours, so I know the pain of EV
- they have the potential to price it a lot lower because no battery and charger. This can increase sales.


Yes the under seat storage is a bummer. But the scooter addresses a huge market and I can easily see it becoming the #1 selling EV scooter next year. I definitely intend to get one as my Ather 450 completes 6 years in March and highly due an upgrade.

[Sebring]

Honda power has allowed Atul Autorickshaws to use these swappable batteries too. More companies to be added.
I'm staying far far away from these.

https://youtu.be/9AFOrhqEq58?si=Hof_7ryf1F-aKCim

Originally Posted by W.A.G.7

The idea of swapping batteries is good. But how do you ensure that the swapped battery is in a good condition.