[ridealongkirtan]

Every Gixxer (new generation) is plagued with the problem of spongy brakes and many owners might have pinched their fingers when trying to use maximum braking (speaking from experience :-P).

After owning the Gixxer for a while, I was very irritated with the feedback from the brake lever. It would always bring my confidence level down whenever I went for spirited rides. So after failing to find a solution (or video) for this online and even from my technical friends, I decided to find a solution on my own.

Lots of my friends who I look up to for technical knowledge suggested that I should upgrade to a steel braided line to improve feedback, but from my analysis, I could only see that it could be a master cylinder problem and not a rubber brake line problem as this was not happening only on braking from high speeds but also low speeds. The rubber lines shouldn’t expand this easily at city speeds.

After a lot of back and forth, I went out to the market. Having owned a 2011 CBR 250R ABS variant (still regret selling it), I always loved the brake feedback from that bike and was trying to get a similar feel. So I set out to find the master cylinder for the bike. Sadly, the shopkeeper told me he didn't have a Nissin master cylinder for the CBR. He only the Bybre one from the non-abs variant of CBR. But he had a Nissin one from a different bike. I am assuming it was from the Hornet 2.0. I took my chances and asked him to show me the master cylinder to check if it was anywhere close to what I wanted. To my surprise, it was exactly the same one as the Gixxer. Only the mirror mount and the clamp were in a different angle and position. Note that you will also have to buy the lever for the same master cylinder. It cost me ~Rs.1,500 for both (this was around February 2024 and prices and availability might change). So I just bought it right away and started prepping my tools to get it fitted.

The piston that pushes the brake oil is huge and doesn’t move around like the one in the Bybre, which is literally like a stick and gives that wobbly freeplay like feeling. The screw size, the brake switch, everything is plug and play I just emptied the brake oil put new Vesrah disc pads in and then proceeded to bleed the brake system with new fresh Motul Dot 4 oil. Once I was done with flushing the old oil out and removing all the air bubbles I was ready to take a test ride.

The initial response was just amazing. Exactly what I wanted. Braking would start just with a touch and I didn’t have to pull in the lever a lot to get maximum braking. The new master cylinder was perfect. No more loose feeling of the Bybre lever. Even the brake switch sound when using the brake was satisfying. Paired with Vesrah brake pads now my spirited rides have safer and more fun.

If you do your bike's servicing on your own, then it is hardly a 15 minute process. If you can’t service it on your own, then just buy the parts that I have put photos of and take them to a good mechanic and get them fitted. They will charge anywhere around Rs.300-Rs.500 which is reasonable for the amount of work involved. I will highly recommend this upgrade to every new-gen Gixxer owner. I've not tried this with the older Gixxer, so have no idea if that would fit.

If you liked this post and it helped you out please drop a smiley, it will motivate me to find solutions for other issues of the Gixxer too. Feel free to ask any questions about this upgrade to me here.

Peace.

[GTO]

Mod Note: Thread moved to the Motorcycle section. Thanks for sharing!

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ridealongkirtan

If you liked this post and helped you out please drop a smiley, it will motivate me to find solutions for other issues of gixxer too. Feel free to ask any questions about this upgrade to me here . Peace.

Thanks for the feedback on the Hornet MC. I have a Gixxer 250 with similar spongy Bybre master cylinder. The stock piston is a little too small imo. It's a 12mm afaik. I have been contemplating on swapping it with a Yamaha R15/MT15 Nissin MC or a Duke 250 bybre MC. Good to know the Hornet is an option as well. The brakes are okay but there is way too much lever travel in the stock setup even after multiple bleeds. I like a bit more response from the initial brake lever travel. Now I'm having to cover the front brakes a lot because the initial 1cm or so of lever travel has no effect. This is crucial in traffic.

[ridealongkirtan]

Originally Posted by b16h22

Thanks for the feedback on the Hornet MC. I have a Gixxer 250 with similar spongy Bybre master cylinder. The stock piston is a little too small imo. It's a 12mm afaik. I have been contemplating on swapping it with a Yamaha R15/MT15 Nissin MC or a Duke 250 bybre MC. Good to know the Hornet is an option as well. The brakes are okay but there is way too much lever travel in the stock setup even after multiple bleeds. I like a bit more response from the initial brake lever travel. Now I'm having to cover the front brakes a lot because the initial 1cm or so of lever travel has no effect. This is crucial in traffic.

Really glad to help. This is probably the best solution. No one has tried to write the solution here so I thought that I must share my experience. I wouldn't recommend bybre other than the duke 390 3rd gen one if your preferences are anything like me.

Few Extra images that I couldn't add yesterday. Hope this helps.

[amit_purohit20]

I recently bought a used Apache RTR 200 4V. Having owned Apache RTR 180 in the past, I was not new to the fact that Apache's are plagues with poor braking system especially the front brake. Apache's loose their brake bite within a month of using the vehicle.

But to my utter surprise this bike which I bought is horrible when it comes to front braking, even worse than my earlier bike I had. My humble Bajaj Platina has a better disc brake than this Apache.

I have done brake pad change, bleeding the brakes with nearly zero effect. The brakes literally do not work even at city speeds initially.
I also learnt that sometimes just replacing the master cylinder piston does not solve the problem as the cylinder might have got damaged in which the piston works. I was contemplating changing the master cylinder kit.

But then your post has given me better thoughts of not limiting to Apache master cylinder itself but trying other better brands.

Thanks.

[ridealongkirtan]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

I have done brake pad change, bleeding the brakes with nearly zero effect. The brakes literally do not work even at city speeds initially.

I also learnt that sometimes just replacing the master cylinder piston does not solve the problem as the cylinder might have got damaged in which the piston works. I was contemplating changing the master cylinder kit.

But then your post has given me better thoughts of not limiting to Apache master cylinder itself but trying other better brands.

Thanks.

Definitely! I was initially going to buy the RTR 200 Master Cylinder but then as I hadn't used it personally didn't want to take any chances. CBR had Nissin master cylinder who's feedback I loved so went for the same. If the screw matches I would highly recommend the master cylinder that I have used for my Gixxer upgrade. Hope your issue gets solved.

[sagarpadaki]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

I recently bought a used Apache RTR 200 4V. Having owned Apache RTR 180 in the past, I was not new to the fact that Apache's are plagues with poor braking system especially the front brake. Apache's loose their brake bite within a month of using the vehicle.
.
.
.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by ridealongkirtan

Definitely! I was initially going to buy the rtr 200 Master Cylinder but then as I hadn't used it personally didn't want to take any chances. .
.
.

Surprising that you have had bad experience with Apache MC. I have the Apache MC on my Pulsar and it is a big upgrade compared to the Bajaj MC on the pre 2016 Pulsar's. The feedback improved by a good margin. Coupled with a steel braided brake line, I found this setup to be most effective on my P180!

[vrprabhu]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

...have done brake pad change, bleeding the brakes with nearly zero effect. The brakes literally do not work even at city speeds initially.
I also learnt that sometimes just replacing the master cylinder piston does not solve the problem as the cylinder might have got damaged in which the piston works.....

I agree with Sagar, as I too found that Apache brakes to be better. I think the answer lies in your post... would suggest that the entire brake be disassembled, cleaned and refitted with new master cylinder and piston service kits. It could be because the brake fluid has deteriorated and hence the pistons are not working freely.

[VijayAnand1]

Brilliant! Case in point, on my V-Strom the front brake is one aspect that always makes me want more and better. On my V-Strom thread, here...

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ip-review.html (The Dapper Suzuki V-Strom 250 SX | A comprehensive ownership review)

By and large the braking setup is designed okay and the ABS system decent enough to not be too intrusive on the Suzie. I totally hear you with your apples to oranges comparison between the CBR and the Gixxer's brakes. The Honda's C-ABS system coupled to the fantastically calibrated and super sharp one finger braking is simply no match for any bikes sold right now in India in its class, both anterior and posterior. I for one, have always benchmarked CBR's C-ABS brakes for most of my braking discussions. Ah, you made me reminiscent of my CBR days, a sleeper at that.

Now, coming to reality, the Achilles Heel on the Strom/Gixxer is the front brake feedback. Though in my case, I am happy with the lever travel and the firmness which has stood the test of time and in fact, it's as similar as the CBR's right from day one I rode both off from the showroom floor - no sponginess whatsoever.

The impediment thus far has been the poor braking feedback - the tactile feel -- just doesn't communicate. You have to rely on your senses and what your tire is communicating through the bars to proactively judge your braking distance. Though I am used to it after a while now, the thing I'd like you to have posted was the difference in master cylinder piston diameter for both the Hornet's and your Gixxer.

Bigger the piston lesser the effort and more the transmitted fluid forces which results in improved feedback, which is precisely what I wanted to know, the difference between the Honda's MC piston and the Gixxer's MC Piston.

Would be helpful, if you can click a picture of the underside of the Honda master cylinder on your bike. There is a number embossed underneath the master cylinder and if you can share a picture of that, it would be helpful.

The reason I am asking this is because, if the ID is the same for both the Honda and the Gixxer, perhaps a simple MC major kit kit swap should turn out to be a cheaper resolve to the impediment. We shall see, but please do post a picture of the same.

Cheers!
VJ

[Geo_Ipe]

Has anyone tried replacing the front MC kit of the RE Himalayan 411 with any other brand? The front bite of the 411 is also extremely poor in my opinion.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Now, coming to reality, the Achilles Heel on the Strom/Gixxer is the front brake feedback. Though in my case, I am happy with the lever travel and the firmness which has stood the test of time and in fact, it's as similar as the CBR's right from day one I rode both off from the showroom floor - no sponginess whatsoever.

The impediment thus far has been the poor braking feedback - the tactile feel -- just doesn't communicate. You have to rely on your senses and what your tire is communicating through the bars to proactively judge your braking distance. Though I am used to it after a while now, the thing I'd like you to have posted was the difference in master cylinder piston diameter for both the Hornet's and your Gixxer.

Some of the lack of feedback in the Strom has to do with the 19 inch front and taller side wall off-road rubber I think. And the riding position is more relaxed with lesser weight transfer to the front. My Gixxer naked has good braking feedback with decent rubber. The stock MRF was not great in this aspect. I guess the more direct response from the 17 inch road/sport tyre is a factor.

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by b16h22

Some of the lack of feedback in the Strom has to do with the 19 inch front and taller side wall off-road rubber I think. And the riding position is more relaxed with lesser weight transfer to the front. My Gixxer naked has good braking feedback with decent rubber. The stock MRF was not great in this aspect. I guess the more direct response from the 17 inch road/sport tyre is a factor.

Not really though. Tire size doesn't necessarily mean poor/better braking. If that's the case, a single 320 mm rotor would be enough for big ADV bikes and for that matter even the humble soft-roaders NX500 and the Africa Twin, TALP 750 T7 all use double disc upfront and both 19" and 21' for the most part. These have upright, relaxed riding position with 50/50 60/40 etc weight distribution. In fact in most case 19" perform better off-road than 21" and that's a topic for another day.

Now, bigger the wheel heavier the front end naturally is and the need for better braking ability. If you re-read my post, my primary concern was of poor braking feedback and not braking stability. Stability is yielded by tires. Lo, the wheel size in question perhaps can perforce your point on "braking stability" but not braking ability which is what both the thread starter and I am trying to convey.

A stickier rubber does help as you've rightly pointed, but a strong brake complements a stickier rubber better which is sorely lacking with the 250 twins. Sintered pads make a huge difference. I've also mentioned the same in my Himalayan 411 thread where the stock brakes were utter garbage, yet post switching to EBC the front brakes were just single finger index finger braking and that aggravated the plaguing loosening conset issue prevalent on the 411s, such was the bite from those pads.

Bottomline, tire size doesn't really, at least per me, matter with respect to a given brake's ability, rather only helps in stability and driveability -- there's a difference between both.

Hope it helps!

Cheers!
VJ

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Not really though. Tire size doesn't necessarily mean poor/better braking. If that's the case, a single 320 mm rotor would be enough for big ADV bikes and for that matter even the humble soft-roaders NX500 and the Africa Twin, TALP 750 T7 all use double disc upfront and both 19" and 21' for the most part. These have upright, relaxed riding position with 50/50 60/40 etc weight distribution. In fact in most case 19" perform better off-road than 21" and that's a topic for another day.


Cheers!
VJ

I was not necessarily talking about the braking performance as you've mistaken. It was more about the feedback and feel transferred to the rider about the limits of adhesion under hard braking. Which the geometry and tyres make a big difference imo. The contact patch, tyre compound & construction, profile, all makes a difference when it comes to on-the-limit feedback. The braking ability is similar as the hardware is same for Gixxer and Strom. Hope you get what I'm talking about.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by b16h22

I was not necessarily talking about the braking performance as you've mistaken. It was more about the feedback and feel transferred to the rider about the limits of adhesion under hard braking. Which the geometry and tyres make a big difference imo. The contact patch, tyre compound & construction, profile, all makes a difference when it comes to on-the-limit feedback. The braking ability is similar as the hardware is same for Gixxer and Strom. Hope you get what I'm talking about.

In non technical terms, I call it being close to the road. The closer you are, leaned low up front, the more connected I feel as a rider. Cornering and braking both, separate and together. Ive never felt that connect with these tall adventure bikes/scramblers. Always fell disconnected somewhat. Remote. As if your touch points (butt, hands and feet) have been given a touch of anesthesia. Somehow when these bikes isolate you from bad terrain, they also isolate you from terrain, period.

Cheers, Doc

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by b16h22

I was not necessarily talking about the braking performance as you've mistaken. It was more about the feedback and feel transferred to the rider about the limits of adhesion under hard braking. Which the geometry and tyres make a big difference imo. The contact patch, tyre compound & construction, profile, all makes a difference when it comes to on-the-limit feedback. The braking ability is similar as the hardware is same for Gixxer and Strom. Hope you get what I'm talking about.

I guess the topic on hand was exactly the braking problem! Again, I'd humbly reiterate the point, traction, adhesion, grip et al is a completely different topic with the tire, compounds, surface temp, grit of the pavement etc etc and it's a never ending honey pot of topics to talk about.

For the sake of thread decorum, I'd like to stick to topic on hand and wouldn't dilute it too much as it would lead back to square one. Let's wait to hear from the thread starter and what he has to offer on my query.

Cheers!
VJ