[TheHelix0202]

Bajaj, at this point, it isn't just about the extra weight. Give the Dominar a less rubbish chassis to work with. Thanking you, a once Dominar fan.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by TheHelix0202

Bajaj, at this point, it isn't just about the extra weight. Give the Dominar a less rubbish chassis to work with. Thanking you, a once Dominar fan.

Amen.

They're one step ahead of you. They already did. And its called the Pulsar NS 400Z.

Cheers, Doc

[TheHelix0202]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Amen.

They're one step ahead of you. They already did. And its called the Pulsar NS 400Z.

Cheers, Doc

I want to both laugh and cry; at this point, it’s like a twin paradox, especially after our views on the Pulsar thread!

[ExOblivione]

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

I agree that weight shouldn't be a top priority for a cruiser, and to some extent, more weight helps it in a way.
However, the initial Dominar was dangerously close to even liter class bikes.

I will leave my thoughts regarding the weight for another post, this one has become long enough as it is.

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

For less vibrations, a lot can be done in a single cylinder engine as well. For instance, you can employ counterbalancers on the crankshaft, you can use bar end mirrors/weights, etc.

Honda CBR250R, Mahindra Mojo 300, Hero/HH Karizma, etc stand as some of the single cylinders which were smooth considering their direct competition.

All of those are bandaids, they cannot change fundamental physics of a high-compression single. KTM 373cc engine already has counterbalancers, adding more would up the weight for no performance gain. Dominar already has bar end weights, and these offer marginal improvements anyway, otherwise the vibey nature of singles would have solved if it were so easy.

The bikes you mentioned are low compression, easy going, compared to how much power the KTM makes from its 373cc vs, say, a smoother CB350, but it makes 20 bhp from 350cc.

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

But fitting a dual cyl engine in a Dominar would confuse the market, and instead position the Dominar as a bigger brand than KTM, Husqvarna, etc. but unconvincingly. The market will be confused, and not accept it.

I don’t follow this line of reasoning.

The “market” just refers to buyers in aggregate, and the idea that motorcycle buyers, who are notorious spec-sheet warriors world over, and Indian buyers in particular, who are additionally very, very price sensitive, and who were (and are) starved for affordable higher-end multi-cylinder bikes, would not accept a ~400cc, twin-cylinder Dominar, if it was offered sub-3 lakh (RE Interceptor price as benchmark), because of some branding issue does not track.

As evidence I present the following:
1) RE Twins: The excitement around the launch of RE’s 650 twins was centered around them having a twin cylinder engine. Talk was about how they were bringing the first “affordable” multicylinder option to Indians, who had no such option before that. About how they were the first (and only) Indian company to have a multicylinder offering. If Bajaj had done this with their top bike, media and buyers would have leapt at it. As an aside, Interceptor weighs 213kg, 27kg higher than Dominar 400 UG, and 20kg even with the 2022 touring package.

2) KTM 490: If you remember, a few years back, KTM had announced work on a 473cc twin range, and that sent the Indian biking scene frothing at the mouth with excitement, again because it was multicylinder. The talk was about how finally Duke 390 owners (and others who didn’t want a RE cruiser) would finally have a relatively affordable upgrade path to multicylinder. Also hope for Dominar 500 at an even lower price. And the cancellation of that project was met with an equal wave of disappointment. If Bajaj had done this earlier with their top bike, it would have changed the landscape.

3) Aprilla 457 launch: Even such a recent launch, the talk, apart from the badge, was about its twin engine, at a relatively affordable price.

As for whether this move would position Dominar as a bigger brand than KTM etc. Not necessarily, since that engine would likely have found its way in their top offerings, the same way the KTM 373cc engine is present in all.

But the bigger question is, even if this were the case, so what? Why should Bajaj be afraid of establishing its brand as a premium one, on its OWN home turf? “Hamara Bajaj” had a special place in Indian hearts. Pulsar was special to most Indian bikers who were college-age or younger in the early 2000s. Bajaj sells more bikes in a year than KTM does in ten. Bajaj Auto has 40x the market cap of KTM. KTM needs Bajaj mass manufacturing more than Bajaj needs KTM. Why do Indian juggernauts walk on eggshells around mice, rather than establishing their own identity worthy of their size, at least in their own home?

The only way to do that is to start making aspirational motorcycles, starting with low-to-middle weight, give the market what it has clearly been clamoring for, an affordable multi-cylinder bike.

Dominar is considered a soft failure in biking circles, but based on the sale numbers, it hasn’t really been a sales failure. Leaving aside RE (which it was never going to beat), Dominar 400 has consistently outsold all other 300cc+ motorcycles. The KTMs, Apache 310, Jawa, Yezdi etc. The failure comes from its inability to achieve that Bajaj intended i.e. premium positioning and taking away RE’s market share. I could write a thesis on how both were extremely badly handled, from Dominar already having to play second fiddle to Duke 390, and Bajaj’s severe lack of understanding of a RE buyer’s mindset, which backfired spectacularly.

Dominar’s failure is the result of Bajaj’s desire to play it safe, to dip its toe towards making a desirable offering rather than fully committing and bringing its considerable power to bear, something it’s still quarter-assing, which you absolutely can't do when coming from a weaker brand position. You have to generate excitement. Maybe, while working on the Triumph partnership, if it had taken one thing from the British, it should have been the motto of SAS; “Who Dares Wins”.

[RD410]

Originally Posted by Amrit@wheels

It seems like people are missing the point of a cruiser motorcycle. I ride an FZ25 which tips the scale at just 152KG. I do enjoy flicking it in tight spaces but on open highways, with wind blowing, it does not inspire much confidence. The stability takes a toll. This is where the 'fat' Dominar shines. It is the weight (and weight distribution) that keeps it unfazed in such conditions. In my opinion, they should not decrease its weight by more than 5-6 KG, and instead, improve the build quality, fit and finish, and refinement levels.

Exactly. Dominar was first showcased at 2014 Auto Expo as the Pulsar CS400 concept, where CS stood for 'Cruiser Sports'. From the very begining, Bajaj was clear that it's a power cruiser and not a street fighter. And Dominar 400 is very good at it's job of being a power cruiser. But it's sad to see people (including some top journo's like Shumi) resent it for not handling or behaving like a naked street figter. I've only seen Mr. Sagar Sheldekar appreciate the Dominar for what it is. Cross winds on some highways pose a real danger and Domi with it's heavy build and long wheelbase is one of those few sub 500cc bikes which is unfazed in that situation.

Bajaj is also partly at fault here. In 2016, Indian's needed a street fighter 400cc and not a power cruiser. NS400 is 8-9 years too late in the market. If launched in 2016, NS400 would've been a perfect counterpart to Duke 390 gen 1, just like how NS200 was to Duke 200. So first they messed up by launching Dominar and ignoring Pulsar, then they again messed up by pitting the Domi against RE 350/500 using those awful 'haathi mat paalo' TVC's

[Samarth 619]

Originally Posted by ExOblivione

I will leave my thoughts regarding the weight for another post, this one has become long enough as it is.
All of those are bandaids, they cannot change fundamental physics of a high-compression single.
The bikes you mentioned are low compression, easy going, compared to how much power the KTM makes from its 373cc vs, say, a smoother CB350, but it makes 20 bhp from 3....

Branding matters bro. Dominar is and always was a RE replacement since the starting. You said, Bajaj should launch a twin cyl Dominar, after its KTM and Husqvarna partners do... Agreed completely, except for a big question...

Why will KTM and Husqvarna want to get a twin making under 45 bhp in a market like India, or anywhere? Euro A2 stops them going all big, so around 45 it will be.
Plus, they might not have a source engine ready abroad with these specs. More cash burning in R&D, can't expect VFM anymore now.

Do they want to get a cheaper Ninja 400/500 with their name on it? If a customer wants a faired twin 400/500, wouldn't they get a Kawasaki directly, making minor adjustments along the way?
Its expensive, but barely so considering the segment, plus its reliable, performing, and touring suitable too, from what we're heard from owners.

They shelved the 490 project and I was expecting this since 2020. It never make sense. We don't expect a Kawasaki Z400/Z500 from KTM, we expect a KTM from KTM. Less cylinders do make sense.

As for vibrations, agree with you, but I think we're choosing a really expensive way to fix vibrations which are already manageable.
Going dual will help, but at what cost? Heavy weight (often), low mileage (always), Service quality complications (mostly), higher cost of purchase (always), etc.
I'll let existing RS457 owners speak after 2-3 years (not wishing ill, I hope best for them, so far I have only heard good things, but a twin is not a single).

I myself own a 2013 Duke 390 (CR is 12.6:1), and believe me it has lesser vibrations @ 100kmph than a 500cc RE single does (with lesser C.Ratio). On 80 kmph, both these bikes have negligible vibes for long rides.

Vibrations on the 390, are not a big issue as such even while touring.
As a customer, ask me.. I wouldn't go twin just to remove some vibrations. Maybe get some good gloves, some cushioning on footpegs, and you're ok.


I would want to go twin for firstly higher performance (can't be under 55-60bhp, I'm already on 44) & smooth firing sound (some twins have 180* firing order, negating the sound effect). Less vibes are maybe after this in priority.
Twins are worth it, if they're around 650cc and 60+ bhp. And already on some roads, a Duke 390 manages to stay pretty close to a Ninja 650...

[ebonho]

A nice segue into where and when it all started.

https://youtu.be/7_sFp9EM2OI?si=Yhu3WnRh83MwSKCw

Cheers, Doc