[WheelJack]

Sharing a perspective on why the iconic brand has lost its value in India and many other countries belonging to European and Asian continents. And the only reason I am taking out time and writing this is because my passion and love for this brand will never cease to exist. Especially since this view comes from a previous owner of Iron 883 (2018) with an ownership span of five years. I had both a sweet and bitter experience during these five years of owning this bike. But before talking about that, would like to first emphasize why Harley Davidson Motor Company has lost its charm here as a brand.

Harley Davidson was always an aspiring brand for many bikers, including myself. It had a bike lineup which are supposed to be the most comfortable cruisers meant for touring long journeys and were rugged, tough, and minimalistic with unique styling. And of course, the community advantage culture which it had built over the last century. The only issue was the heat generation from the air-cooled engines. However, that was always ignored by most owners here and potential buyers in India once the brand was introduced in 2009 as it was so iconic that it didn’t matter getting your legs torched in the Indian hot climate barring few cold regions. The brand had a terrific start in India. Everything from entry level Superlow 883, Iron 833, 48’s and street bobs were selling like hot cakes since there was no other brand offering these kinds of comfortable bikes with the most distinguished look and such a vast lineup. Most of the Royal Enfield owners who at that time owned the 350 cc variants aspired to upgrade to any of the Harley bikes including myself. They owned Superlow or Iron 883 for 2-3 years and with the versatile dealer schemes upgraded to the Dyna or the touring lineup. This was a natural re-purchase behavior observed in the consumers from 2009 till 2018.

Then, I heard somewhere that a survey was conducted among existing owners at that time and two major problems were discovered in these bikes. One was excessive heat due to air-cooled engines and the second was low ground clearance. To overcome these barriers and to enter a more sub-premium bike segment to get volume share, I believe the entry level variant Street 750 was introduced in 2014 with a plant in Haryana for manufacturing them. When I bought my Iron883 in 2018, by this time there was already a sudden spike in numbers of these 750’s seen on the road. I had test ridden the street 750 bike and anyone who was a fan of the brand knew that street 750 is not a true Harley but a mere abomination to meet certain criteria which were a liquid cooled engine, higher ground clearance some modern elements. This might have been good for the company financially in India and neighboring countries but in long term it destroyed the core positioning of being a brand offering big cruiser bikes with premium looks and styling. But this is something we already know and hence assuming this is why the bike got discontinued globally during covid era. This was the first mistake introducing a bike that led to a decline in brand’s true heritage value here in India.

But my opinion has not much to do with Street 750, but mainly why a brand that had a good perception about offering whole and soul traditional cruiser bikes even after the Street 750 failure, wanted to enter the ADV or sport segment (as per official categories listed on website). The newly designed Nightster special or Sportster S though they have a liquid cooled engine and churn out more power, are they really true Harleys in their DNA. Or even the ‘Pan America’ which merely sold worldwide. Does a potential customer of this brand want an aggressive looking bike or just a comfortable traditional cruiser offering superior comfort and a pure balance of rideability and distinguished styling. Accessorizing the bike anyways was a default behavior to make the bikes look more appealing and that was only possible in the old sportster and dyna lineup.

I believe the brand went wrong in this research and came out with a completely new lineup of ‘Sport’ and ‘ADV’ category which does not meet its true DNA. If I want an aggressive looking and faster bike, I will go to the Japanese or European manufacturers. I would not think about Harley at all. So why did the product and research team ignore this insight completely and came up with bikes that do not carry any of the brand’s true appeal. The touring and Grand American line-up of do offer some of the classics, however those with the essential accessories and few upgrades cost dearly and hence don’t cater to many people. So instead, why not re-introduce the traditional looking Sportsters and Dyna lineup with a liquid cooled engine, make few aesthetic changes and position them as icons or legends to the current cruiser seeking audience in India and the world. Just stick to the roots and it would have worked.

The newly launched Scouts by Indian Motorcycles is a perfect example, they just made aesthetics changes, added few noticeable tech upgrades, and created multiple variants with same engine, but the core bike and structure remain a cruiser in its heart and caters to same set of audiences who want such bikes.

This question needs to be really answered by the core team and if challenged with logic, a possible solution might come up on how the brand can re-introduce the heritage bikes that it was originally known for and regain its lost status. Currently in India, Harley is known as a brand that failed and even after the merger with Hero, the new line up of bikes are not to be seen at all on the roads and it is only the preowned old generation bikes that are being transferred from one owner to another at a very low sale price. Even the newly introduced 440’s merely competed with the likes of 400’s from Triumph. So, it might be not a far fledged future that the brand will leave India and some of its neighbors. However, can this be avoided by just going back to the core and original offering? If yes, won’t that be a more economical and safeguarded approach to regain the market share here.

Now coming to my experience, will keep it short, assuming you have read this far, a little more won’t hurt. I got the bike in 2018 and upgraded from a Royal Enfield Classic 350. For me it was one of my biggest dreams that came true at the rightful age of 30. I got the bike from a dealership in Mumbai and had a very pleasant delivery experience. I joined the official group/community here, went on many rides, met a lot of like-minded people, made a few friends, accessorized the bike whenever possible and the typical yaddi-yadda. Before Covid got the bike work done at authorized workshop, where I started experiencing lag in the service and experience. The bike was perfect but as I was visiting the authorized workshop more and more for regular routine work, started experiencing some minor hiccups. And boom, Covid hit in 2020 and the showroom closed in Mumbai left with just one workshop as Harley Davidson decided to exit India. The Hero merger news came but by this time, people already knew the brand was dead. So as a natural way forward, started going to specialized Harley technicians outside of the authorized network. For some time, this was manageable but later led to issues in the bike that were beyond comprehension and due to lack of reliable authorities getting a second opinion didn’t seem worthwhile. So decided, it’s better to get good riddance rather than keeping it and being unsatisfied all the time with performance. I loved the bike a lot and saying it loud that I have a Harley felt like a privilege, but having a bike that does not run as it’s supposed to was also a waste of time and dedication. Also sold at a low price point but had no option since brand value was so down.

So overall to sum it up, this bitter experience could have been avoided if Harley had not lost its market share in India which led to decline in numbers of sales showrooms and authorized workshops with the required talent. I would still be an owner today of this prestigious and iconic brand, being part of the legacy, it created worldwide. So, woudn’t it be great if this company considers relaunching the original lineup of sportsters and dyna with some upgrades and you never know, the brand might just see brighter pastures soon.

This is purely an individual opinion.

[AMG Power]

Every American automotive brand has closed shop in India - Ford, GM, Harley.

The only one remaining - Jeep - has got all the signs to have gone the same way - one model barely selling and the rest almost non existent.

The fact is that this American is owned by a Dutch conglomerate who also have Citroën, Fiat & Maserati in India.

Have always believed that the Europeans play better than the Yanks.

Stellantis, don’t prove me wrong.

(Edit: The rumours of Ford returning are just that - rumours. They have already lost the trust of customers with their exit. With one overpriced import as the rumoured entry vehicle, a repeat exit may well be on the cards.)

[bj96]

Originally Posted by WheelJack

... started experiencing lag in the service and experience. The bike was perfect ...

I've the last generation 103 Ci Twin Cam engine Fat Boy. I Have covered 35k+ kilometers including multiple cross-country rides in ~7 years. The bike had been extremely comfortable and reliable. Agree off late, the service and spare parts availability is turning worse. My bike is grounded for over two months for "oil drain hose", which has cracked due to aging, is not in stock with the workshop .

They are losing focus. Instead of going on launching new fancy bikes and hoping they are a hit with the audience, they should (also) keep existing customers like us happy and delighted with service and us in turn, will become their "free" brand ambassadors for new customer acquisition in India.

-BJ

[Sudarshan42]

No harm in diversifying your product line and bringing more people to the brand, in my opinion. They started with roadsters and ADVs simply because that's the way the world is headed, and they should have stuck to it by improving those non-cruiser products. There is no money to be made by being a one-trick pony.

I think the Harley brand diminished because people weren't clear about what it stood for- the connotations of the past, with massive cruisers ridden by the likes of Hell's angels cannot survive in an era where toxic masculinity is being rooted out. And their pivot to new segments didn't work because of their inability to commit to a new brand ethos. They simply became a victim of their own past brand image, not to mention most of their products are quite highly priced, thereby preventing new users from entering the brand.

I have hope with stuff like the X440- looks like they are again open to introducing the brand to new customers. Time will tell.

[Nilesh5417]

To me, the biggest hit Harley took was from fast diminishing population of motorcycle riders in their primary market USA. The current generation just doesn't step out as much let alone ride motorcycles.

Their expansion into Europe with existing product line would have yielded limited results since geographically, Europe is more of mountains and trails. Unlike long, straight and gently winding roads that dominate US. The population density is totally different too! The traditional cruisers just don't fit in somehow imo in Europe.

In growing markets like Asia, Harleys were just too expensive.

And their flip-flop in strategy didn't help either - let's expand in Asia. No No let's focus on America our largest market. Or shall we go electric and blow up money on livewire?

Their tieup with Hero to me makes sense and thankfully they did it right around the time Trumph got into it with Bajaj. They also launched the X440 on time and didn't take a decade to bring an option in the 400s category. And it's a decent one if not exactly top of the charts! I hope they find their feet cause we do need more options / manufacturers that stay for long term.

[handsofsteel]

To the average Indian kid in the 90s, Harley stood for a cult. Even non-bikers knew them. Any big motorcycle was, in our minds, a Harley. We did not know anything about hot running engines, low ground clearance, low poser to weight ratios etc. The individually accessorised bikes were all drool-worthy on the posters/ movies. Of course, we had no clue of the costs of these either. Then in 2009 came the big announcement of them making their debut in India. Droves of people flocked to the showrooms to drool over these beauties. I remember taking my entire family to the Tusker Harley showroom at Delhi all the way from my home just to see these.
One fine day, my next door neighbour bought an Iron 883. Lo and behold, he lent me the bike to take my better half on a ride. Me not being used to the acceleration and the power, my better half, riding pillion, almost fell off. She asked a question, why not fit a backrest? The owner replied, its the next upgrade. Upon expressing our surprise, we realised that the pillion seat cost 11k extra, a lockable fuel cap (a bare necessity in any country) cost a further 18k and so on. The rear tyre alone cost 50k at that time and the life was, at best, 10-12k kms. Wistfully, I realised that this was not for me, at that point in time.
By the time I actually got around to buying a big bike, in 2019, my friend had left his 883 with me for a week. I took a ride, there were 13 speed breakers between my home and office and all of them had to be crabbed over. I, therefore, did not even consider the Harleys for a purchase. The Japanese gave me better GC, better fuel efficiency (not a deciding factor, but did not hurt), infinitely better reliability, way cooler engines, better tech (my V650 had 66ps on tap for a 650cc engine as against the 51 hp for a 883cc block), more power to weight and better priced. The Harleys were still drool worthy but by then we had moved on to look at practicality as well.
In a nutshell, Harley refused to move ahead with the times. (One may say, the RE Bullet too has been stuck in the 60s and has similar issues, but then it is way more affordable). The writing was, therefore, on the wall and it was only a matter of time before the fanboys too deserted the brand.

[kvamshi04]

Originally Posted by WheelJack

To overall to sum it up, this bitter experience could have been avoided if Harley had not lost its market share in India which led to decline in numbers of sales showrooms and authorized workshops with the required talent. I would still be an owner today of this prestigious and iconic brand, being part of the legacy, it created worldwide.
This is purely an individual opinion.

I appreciate the insight you shared. As a motorcycle enthusiast, I had always dreamed of owning a Harley. In 2022, despite limited resources, I test rode the Iron 833 in Hyderabad, but with an on-road price of 14.5 lakhs, I couldn't see the value and decided to put my money to better use. Hearing about your experience, I'm grateful I didn't make that investment. While I love Harley's, the Super Meteor seems like a better and more cost-effective option to me.

[navin_v8]

HD did not move ahead with times and chose to stick to their cruiser models. This was without considering that the core customers in their home market were growing old and new customers had moved on. HD through decades of selling motorcycles with a single engine config V-Twin in different forms became a niche brand catering to cruiser segment.

While they decided to change it was too late and their attempts although bold did not pay off. To their credit, they did release water cooled engines in collaboration with Porsche for their nightrod series, but it didn't take off as they anticipated it to. Besides there may have been some backlash from their loyal customers who wanted original air cooled big burly engines. This is very similar to RE's story when they released the Electra CI with left side gear and right side brake followed by AVL Machismo and Thunderbird AVL 5 speed. Most purists ridiculed the Electra, Machismo and Thunderbird AVL but new customers took to them due to electric start, CDI ignition, comfortable gas filled rear suspension, front disc brake and relatively better reliability. What RE did post 2009 is a case study in MBA schools worldwide.

Unlike USA there was only one big engine motorcycle in India up until the 2010's which is why RE had a monopoly. By the time KTM came in RE was firmly established once again and was doing well unlike HD in USA which was competing with numerous brands including the Japanese Big 4 offering a plethora of options right from cruisers, retro classic, sports, ADV, super sports, etc.

By the time HD decided to come to SE Asia it was too late and their American Cruisers were not suitable for tropical hot and humid climate coupled with not so good road infrastructure. Many noticed second hand HD's selling on OLX and other classified websites. All this sends wrong signals to potential buyers, especially in cost conscious market like SE Asia.

RE on the other hand was doing well in India as well as overseas market. Most overseas market looked at it as a retro-classic motorcycle which was easy to own and fix. Apart from some minor quality related tweaks RE motorcycles were more or less like their domestic counterparts. Unlike HD cruisers they required minimum mods to sell overseas. Remember the Japanese UJM's were based on British Motorcycles of the yore. This factor made a connection with old as well as appealed to the new buyers. No such thing happened with HD as they were not able to break their now solid mould of big burly cruisers.

To HD's credit, they did try to experiment with ADV and tried to jump on the ADV bandwagon with their Pan America model. But this time they were competing with champion ADV's like BMW GS 1250, KTM 1290 ADV, Ducati Multistrada, etc. Needless to say, it didn't take off.

Meanwhile RE was smashing it with 650 twins, Himalayans and Hunters. RE's success in India was so great that it arm twisted the likes of Triumph and a very adamant Honda to offer thumpers of their own. Hell! even Mahindra brought the Jawa Yezdi to life to get a pie out of RE's share. HD was again late to the party with their X-440 thumper. These companies are at least 10-15 years late in the game. KTM entered early during mid 2010's with their fantastic single cylinders and reaped the benefits. Meanwhile, RE has moved to another galaxy with their twin offerings.

As much as I love the old American Mo-Co and want it to survive, the directions they are taking may not work in the long run, especially in a tough market like India.

[WheelJack]

Originally Posted by bj96

They are losing focus. Instead of going on launching new fancy bikes and hoping they are a hit with the audience, they should (also) keep existing customers like us happy and delighted with service and us in turn, will become their "free" brand ambassadors for new customer acquisition in India.

-BJ

Yes, agree. The existing customer segment was too big to ignore, and even after sales of accessories was a fantastic source for additional revenue as everyone wanted to modify their bikes all the time. So this was purely a top management negligence which led to the current stage of lagging service and availability of parts and accessories.

Originally Posted by Sudarshan42

No harm in diversifying your product line and bringing more people to the brand, in my opinion. They started with roadsters and ADVs simply because that's the way the world is headed, and they should have stuck to it by improving those non-cruiser products. There is no money to be made by being a one-trick pony.

Yes one can always add a new line up of categories, but in this process why forget what it always was familiar for which was the big cruisers lineup. There is still a decent audience catering to this segment.

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

And their flip-flop in strategy didn't help either - let's expand in Asia. No No let's focus on America our largest market. Or shall we go electric and blow up money on livewire?

Well in US and Canada, they are still doing quite well as the pre-owned bikes are still selling officially via the showrooms. This facility was here in India also but they discontinued. Also in these regions their touring offerings like road glide and CVO are very popular and few competitors like Indian Motorcycles and BMW have limited offerings in this category.

Originally Posted by kvamshi04

I appreciate the insight you shared. As a motorcycle enthusiast, I had always dreamed of owning a Harley. In 2022, despite limited resources, I test rode the Iron 833 in Hyderabad, but with an on-road price of 14.5 lakhs, I couldn't see the value and decided to put my money to better use. Hearing about your experience, I'm grateful I didn't make that investment. While I love Harley's, the Super Meteor seems like a better and more cost-effective option to me.

Yes 14.5 lakhs for Iron883 would not be justify knowing how the after sales and service are declining day by day. So better to look at other big bike brands.

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

By the time I actually got around to buying a big bike, in 2019, my friend had left his 883 with me for a week. I took a ride, there were 13 speed breakers between my home and office and all of them had to be crabbed over. I, therefore, did not even consider the Harleys for a purchase. The Japanese gave me better GC, better fuel efficiency (not a deciding factor, but did not hurt), infinitely better reliability, way cooler engines, better tech (my V650 had 66ps on tap for a 650cc engine as against the 51 hp for a 883cc block), more power to weight and better priced. The Harleys were still drool worthy but by then we had moved on to look at practicality as well.
In a nutshell, Harley refused to move ahead with the times. (One may say, the RE Bullet too has been stuck in the 60s and has similar issues, but then it is way more affordable). The writing was, therefore, on the wall and it was only a matter of time before the fanboys too deserted the brand.

Yes the ground clearance is low but manageable if ridden with a little caution. In my five years of owning the Iron883 I hardly scraped the base and I didn't have any bash plate. You won't believe, there is still a formidable fan base of the brand, hence I mentioned that the company chose to ignore them and could not find a new audience in India and many other countries.

[NomadSK]

I had my motorcycle sojourn almost 2 decades back. Here are my 2 cents with limited knowledge,

The only bike I liked from their stable was V-rod. During 2015, I rode my friends HD for a 10-15Km spin. I was completely disappointed with the vibrations and the rough nature of the bike. It actually made me feel like "American Enfield", we don’t have a cow-boy culture too, which could have given some tailwind to their sales.

So IMO, it lost its way into the oblivion because;

1) Enfield like character
2) No major cult following
3) Expensive repairs/maintenance
4) Expensive modifications

Somehow, I felt that day, this product won't last long in Indian market and eventually the euphoria was done and dusted. I still know few guys who swear by their HD machines, but to each its own.

[VwRabbit]

As a previous Harley owner the service centre experience is what ruined the brand for me at least in our country besides the overheating and low slung nature, same goes for Triumph too although i have not owned one of their bikes,HD has a typical American way of doing things and it won’t workout here just like what happened to Ford and Chevrolet.
Too heavy and big for our roads ,exorbitantly priced parts, service people who have no clue on how to work on these bikes, and not to mention terrible parts availability leaving the bikes being out of action sometimes for months, they are meant to be ‘garage queens’ and if someone has bought it for that purpose only then they won’t have much complaints.

[tanbeamer]

Okay - So I own a Pan Americana 1250 here. And I have ridden the softails for a fair bit.

Their ADV is miles ahead of their cruisers when it comes to power. The Pan Am effectively is like a sports bike hiding under the guise of an ADV - that's how quick the bike is. The 114 ci softails on the other hand feel sluggish. They don't feel fast.

I would any day prefer the newer gen Harleys that are agile - even the Sportster S for that matter is a f-a-s-t cruiser and looks way better than the likes of street bob (specially with that shitty handlebar)

And yes, the Pan Am is way more comfortable too. I am quite liking with the way Harley is going about its bike lineups now

[sab3r2th]

I think that is very Harley traditionalist way of thinking about things. HD is in a very non-enviable position where their traditional customers are simply buying less motorcycles as they age, and they don't have anything that can attract newer riders. As you said, in most places that are not USA where HD had a presence, they initially attracted customers because of that cult-like status that Hollywood had built for HD over decades. But the motorcycling world has moved on. And consumers have realised that HDs are just big, comfortable, aesthetically pleasing bikes with huge price tags.

The old CEO, Levatich had the right idea in my opinion, about breaking into new segments with the Pan America and the Street 750, which predictably caused old-time Harley fans to question if they were even a "real" bike. The Bronx was a naked streetfighter with the 975cc engine (which eventually made its way to the Nightster), to enter the increasingly popular "middleweight" class. However, he was replaced by Jochen Dietz, who like most short-sighted CEOs, proceeded to scrap those plans, and revert to the old Harley hack of squeezing existing HD customers. The Nightster and the Sportster S are just lame attempts to recoup some of the development cost of the new Revolution Max engine, and I'd wager that we won't see any further development on the platform in the near future, simply because the present HD leadership doesn't have faith in it (or perhaps it doesn't align with their plan to raise the stock short term and cash out before the company falls).

I will never be a HD customer, as big, heavy, comfortable, low-revving, low HP machines are just not my cup of tea. But the Bronx actually interested me. As a sports naked guy, the Bronx interested me as a big honkin V-twin in the middleweight class (apart from the Ducatis) would have spiced things up. And that same engine in a comfy ADV could have competed with the Tiger 900s and the F850s of the world. But that's not happening so life goes on I guess.

[payeng]

Been always curious on this Topic: How does Big Harley Owners (La FatBoy) treat the once Made in India Harley-Davidson Street 500 and 750??

Are these models welcomed in their HOG Rides or are they Looked down as Models not fit to Ride with the Bigger Boys?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

A bit too late to discuss the 750 now, right? But then I'm also curious on similar lines as to how the new X440 is being accepted into the Harley Davidson communities.

It is not only India-made, but also made and marketed by Hero Motocorp under the Harley Davidson branding.