[pranavshet]

Respected Members,
I was going through November retail sales numbers of Honda 2-wheelers in India. One thing that struck me was barring Shine & unicorn to a certain extent Honda has not been able to make an impact in the Indian motorcycle market. Despite being in a blockbuster JV with Hero “ Hero Honda”, they just could not replicate the magic in their innings so far. What are the possible reasons? Honda is a manufacturer that sold almost 17 million two-wheelers worldwide in 2022.

In my opinion, these might be a few of the many points. Feel free to disagree as well as make your observations as well because this is something I find puzzling.

Reason 1: Arrogance
Honda understands that people in India trust the Honda brand blindly. People will buy anything just because it’s a Honda. That’s very rude of Honda. The Indian buyer is very value-conscious. As Alan Mulally the person responsible for saving Ford from bankruptcy once said “ You have to give customers products they want & not what you want to give. This is exactly the problem with Honda in India. They are of the view that they have an understanding of Indian consumers. I guess they haven’t learned anything on that front from Hero when they were in JV. The Indian buyers are equally aspirational. India is no longer a dumping ground. To grow in India you have to work hard, The position has to be earned.

Reason 2: Inability to develop an effective rival to Splendor & Co

I still can’t digest the fact that Honda who developed the splendor cannot develop a credible rival for it. It’s not that Honda hasn’t attempted, but their products in that segment are not reliable enough. I don’t know because of a lack of proper QC or what. I can say this because I own Activa 125 & every time I give my vehicle for service there is one or the other motorcycle from 110 to 200 cc with air-cooled engines having engine problems. Commuters are expected to be reliable workhorses. How can engines that have clocked 15k or 30k km emit white smoke? These people advertise “Honda trust, Honda reliability”. Why advertise such when you can’t put it to practice?

Now even the Shine 100 that they have launched isn’t equipped with tubeless tyres even as an option. Even HF Deluxe the entry-level commuter from Hero gets tubeless tyres. This is an unpardonable mistake. This again is plain arrogance. Why Honda has to resort to cost-cutting to compete with splendor.

Alternatively, they could have utilized the unicorn brand to good effect by luring people to experience Unicorn 160 by giving good financing options. People want commuters that are comfortable and reasonably efficient at the same time. Even if Honda manages 30% of the crowd to upgrade to unicorn they could easily get volumes of around 50k units a month.

The difference in efficiency between a 100 cc motorcycle & 160cc motorcycle is not that much. The difference in comfort is noticeable.

Also, at the time of Hero Honda Split Hero had 4500 touchpoints and Honda had around 800 dealers. Today, Hero has around 5500 touchpoints and Honda has around 4500+ touchpoints

Can anybody enlighten me on the same? People had expected Honda to be hyper-aggressive after JV split with Hero in year 2010. People had even expected Honda to be the undisputed market leader by say 2018.

Reason 3: High Cost of Service and spare parts.
The commuter motorcycles from Honda are not cheap to maintain as opposed to say, Hero or Bajaj. The cost of service or spare parts is on the higher side. The bikes themselves are not reliable in the first place. Another is the availability of parts. I don’t know why Honda can’t sell spare parts through third-party sellers like Bajaj or Hero. Some basic spare parts barring engine oil are not available. To become the leader your service has to be up to the mark. Right now it's just average in some states and pathetic in others.

Reason 4: Lack of customer connect
I suppose HeroHonda became successful not only because of the legendary 97.2cc engine of Honda but also because of superb quality controls on the manufacturing side & excellent after-sales support and service. We don’t give enough credit to Munjals for the success of the JV. Even I have been guilty of presuming it. You can’t keep customers stranded because of the non-availability of Spare parts. Most of the motorcycles in India manufactured are in the mass market segment. How can Honda not keep a minimum inventory of certain parts?

They have a 10-year warranty program. It's filled with so many clauses that you would be forced to service your vehicle at their dealers. It's another technique of minting money I suppose. Nothing else. Just getting Akshay Kumar or Jimmy Shergil as brand ambassadors won’t change the scene on the ground.

Reason 5: Underestimating Competitive Landscape & Shoddy Premium play
I suppose when Honda split with Hero in late 2010, Hero was subjected to a lot of negative press & rightly so. Everyone was saying that Honda would more or less gobble up Hero by 2018 given the lack of R&D resources of Hero.

Credit to Hero where it's due. Hero has admirably managed to defend their market share in 100 cc space though they lost in 125cc space to Honda, Bajaj TVS. 125 cc space is quite volatile. One good product from either Bajaj or Hero has the potential to disrupt 125cc space. Hero would be launching a premium 125cc motorcycle similar to TVS Radeon. Let's see how Honda reacts then.

As far as the segment above 125 cc goes, Honda has not done anything after CBR 250r. That was their best product to date. It truly represented what Honda stood for. Don’t know who is preventing them from launching CBR 300R. The same is the case for the hesitation of locally manufacturing twins in India. The 500 cc twin platform is globally acclaimed and suits perfectly for entry to 500 cc+ motorcycles.

If RE can completely manufacture twins in India for the world, I don’t know what is preventing them from manufacturing twins in India.

The less I talk about horrendous imitation of Classic Desert Storm the better it is. Honda, you are far better than this. If you think people will buy the CB 350 just because it looks like a classic then you are mistaken, my dear Honda. The customer who is buying premium products craves exclusivity. One will not buy CB 350 only to be called out by others as the first copy of RE classic.

Also credit to Bajaj, TVS, and RE for bringing out fabulous products at an incredible value. Honda has simply remained a mute spectator to the same. Even Hero whose culture was very much similar to Honda has started to wake up and has started launching some great products.

Reason 6: Playing it safe, Inability to take risks & think different
Honda may be a technology leader in 2-wheelers worldwide but in India, they are behaving as though they are clueless as far as motorcycles are concerned. They don’t have a roadmap. The HMSI president gets selected for a term of 2 years. But he only starts understanding the market at the end of the term. Every new country President who comes here knows that he is there for a short period. As a result, nobody wants to take risks and do something extraordinary. Yadvinder Guleria who served as Head of Marketing and Director at HMSI quit Honda in the year 2021 after being associated with HMSI right since inception. You have to trust local guys.

Later he joined Royal Enfield as Chief Commercial Officer. A big loss to HMSI I would say.

Whereas the Indian Competitor leadership is much more stable. They are dynamic enough. They react to changes faster than Honda. There was a time when Honda held the edge in terms of design, development & engine tech but over the years the Indian players have started investing heavily in R&D capabilities to attract foreign talent as well as provide ground to test ideas of indigenous engineers. At least up to 500 cc motorcycles Indian manufacturers more or less are capable of fighting with the Mighty Honda.

Indians very well know that their main rival is Honda. So they will try every trick in the book to counter Honda. Honda normally garners more than 50% in every market it operates( at least in 2-wheelers) but in India it despite being involved in Blockbuster JV & great name in scooters it is struggling in the motorcycles segment.

If Honda doesn’t correct its strategies in India, I feel people in India will start to associate Honda as a scooter brand and nothing synonymous with motorcycles.

Guys would like to know your thoughts on the same. Until then Ride safe.

Warm Regards
Pranav.

[SaurAswale]

Someone needed to address this one. I agree with the reasons you've stated. I also want to resonate with my observations.

1. Reliability and service- Couple of years ago , my father wanted to change his Splendor (45kms a day for almost 18 yrs and still running). He flatly refused to buy Shine saying in his circle Shines are known for having troubles. Despite good sales figures, it is much less reliable than competition. Now TVS raider is also impacting the sales.

2. Lack of Flagships- This shows utter negligence from Honda towards Indian crowd. They killed only strong product in their lineup- CBR250. When Europeans are coming to capture 300cc+ market (even Aprilia has launched 457!!), Honda is busy with stupid 350cc retro motorcycles.

"If you want to celebrate the history, at least choose your own history"

And what history do they have!!! CBR600RR, The Fireblade and even CBX1000. All were the poster bikes in their era.

They can even jump on the "The Adv Train" (again?) with the 500x but then they are ignorant enough to launch and not provide proper service and support.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by pranavshet

I was going through November retail sales numbers of Honda 2-wheelers in India. One thing that struck me was barring Shine & unicorn to a certain extent Honda has not been able to make an impact in the Indian motorcycle market.Guys would like to know your thoughts on the same. Until then Ride safe.

HMSI seems to be doing very well for itself.
http://www.autocarpro.in/news/hmsi-f...million-117238

Marketshare in two wheelers: 25%

FY23 Revenues: Rs. 25,600 cr
FY23 Profits: Rs. 1,850 cr

And if we look at this infographic, all the action seems to be in 100cc and 125cc segment. If we take out Royal Enfield sales, there is negligible sales of bikes over 150 or 160cc.



So criticism of HMSI can only be from a biking enthusiast point of view (rather than financial/business PoV)

[Rajeevraj]

Struggling may be a wrong interpretation. Definitely agree that they are not able to break the Splendor stranglehold that Hero has. Having said that, if you take away the splendor and the scooter volume from Hero- They sell around 240-250,000 motorcycles on an average each month. Similarly if you take away all the scooters that Honda sells, they do around 200,000 motorcycles on an average. That is fairly close and maybe simply because they don't have the reach Hero has.

[Sebring]

Just to give you an insight, I bought the CB 350 as I wanted a 'reliable Royal Enfield Bullet'. The new Classic CB 350 looks wow, and people are liking it

Originally Posted by pranavshet

The less I talk about horrendous imitation of Classic Desert Storm the better it is. Honda, you are far better than this. If you think people will buy the CB 350 just because it looks like a classic then you are mistaken, my dear Honda. The customer who is buying premium products craves exclusivity. One will not buy CB 350 only to be called out by others as the first copy of RE classic.

[Ashley Nair]

Originally Posted by Sebring

Just to give you an insight, I bought the CB 350 as I wanted a 'reliable Royal Enfield Bullet'. The new Classic CB 350 looks wow, and people are liking it

The new Classic 350 is no less reliable than the CB 350, in my experience for the last 9000 kms. Besides, it is much more tractable than the CB and still retains the retro appeal unlike the CB, which has lost it"s classic looks by Honda"s thoughtless alterations( for example, the flashy digital single pod instead of the classic analogue twin pod )

[BullettuPaandi]

Adding to what @SmartCat has mentioned, from our point-of-view, all you've written in excellent detail is exactly what it looks like. But for Honda, hear me out, maybe this is just all they want! I think all their efforts in general consumer market is to acquire a reliable revenue stream for their various motorsports divisions; this could explain 'Reason 6: Playing it safe'.
I think, they play it safe with minor updates to 'tried and tested' models like Activa & Shine, while trying to hop on to similar market space from other manufacturers - with CB H'ness after RE & Rebel after Harley - simply to safely expand on their strategy.

Where Honda got it wrong, I believe, is:
1. with the notion of 'retro'. For a motorcycle to be retro, it has to resemble one that chronologically is, in it's own lineage. H'ness lacks any hint of a CB350, which in my opinion makes it just a regular bike with round headlamps. Had they stuck with their design, they would've gotten a considerable headstart, possibly even adding scope for an actual(twin) CB years down the line.
2. Pricing in their 'enthusiasts' class of bikes.

Originally Posted by pranavshet

I feel people in India will start to associate Honda as a scooter brand and nothing synonymous with motorcycles.

(Without getting into 'scooters are/not motorcycles' and just to add to my point) Even if this hasn't happened yet, I don't think Honda would really be disheartened with it. For some corporations, what they want might be different from what most people do. For instance, Porsche doesn't really want to make Cayenne; but making it is keeping them afloat enough for them to keep on making their crazy, fun and expensive cars. Similarly, I think Honda is more oriented towards motorsports and, as the sales figures indicate, make bikes that most people want.

[Nikhildrao]

Honda made their bones selling the super cub that mobilised millions of people after world war II. If you believe the fireblade is the epitome of honda , you're dead wrong my friend. Honda is the largest manufacturer of engines, it really doesn't matter if it's a scooter or a fire breathing superbike. Every company competes in motorsports to sell their 100cc bikes and economy cars so that they make bank. I think you got everything backwards buddy , the Activa is Honda and nothing more.

[tech_rider]

I was Honda fan boy, owned Honda unicorn, now using dazzler and jazz. I like their engine and ride experience. But I started moving away from Honda brand since few bad experiences from service center. Apart from high cost, high waiting time for handover bike to delivery, issues reported in job card were not properly taken sometimes. Few instances I felt bike was returned just after a wash. One time after a service, I noticed that back break light was ON the whole time, they took bike inside and came out after 15-20 mins informed me to come another day as they think some parts needs to be replaced. I took it to a local mechanic and he fixed it within minutes. Don't remember what was done then. After that I stopped going to Honda service center and list my faith in them. Even if they produce high quality vehicles if they don't train technicians to service it properly there is no point in owning it. May be other brands could also have bad apples like this. But now I am in a mindset to try something other than Honda.

[Cyborg]

With reference to Honda Big Wing for superbikes, it’s simple really - they don’t care about the Indian market.

Their superbike portfolio and pricing strategy for India easily reflects that. Lazy launches, no proper supply, ridiculous pricing and then price corrections are the norm with them. All this screams - we don’t care, you want to buy a Honda, go ahead, this is all you are going to get.

[hikozaru]

Honda Bigwing does not need us and I don't need Honda big bikes. The thing with Honda is that they make boring bikes, which is just not a good thing for an aspirational market like India. Europeans might say that they are not boring, they actually make excellent road bikes but Asians are generally more sensible about these things. We know a 150cc MT15 is great for city mileage and wouldn't buy a NC750x for 'commuting' like those westerners do. We will take the car for longer distances which is far more comfortable and safer instead of doing it on a boring NT1100 like any sensible person would. You wouldn't find big bikes in Japan or SEA either.

Their 300s are underpowered for the highway for a true one bike garage, the 500s are boring, which works on the CB500X but fails on every other bike, their 650s are a little too overpriced, a little too vibey, a little too heavy and also underspecced (which they have corrected partially now). Their latest 600RR will kiss the road all the time. And now you are looking at their litrebikes which are just expensive, fast enough to break speed limits across the world in 1st gear, 200kg+ and just pointless really. The only Hondas on sale (i.e. not some personally imported fireblade) I've seen in Bangalore is the Africa twin and two of them were doing a school run with their kid.

Originally Posted by pranavshet

Don’t know who is preventing them from launching CBR 300R

Extra fairing weight compromises on what makes the CB300R truly great, and as I mentioned above the 300s are so underpowered that the fairing does not help.

Yamaha in contrast, have an excellent lineup of interesting bikes internationally like the MT07, MT09, R7, R6, XSR900, upcoming XSR900GP, that are not stupid fast or stupid expensive (at least compared to litrebikes). In India, Yamaha does not manage to sell the R15 because its a sensible road bike. It sells because it is by far the best 150cc bike in the whole world. To make Indians throw VFM aside, this is what Honda needs to do. Until they have exciting bikes, I'd say ignoring India is totally the right decision.

[RD410]

My little analysis on this topic -

• They went out of their way and conceived the CB350 to directly take on Royal Enfield. Here they went as far as to not only copy the looks, but also the 70 x 90 bore - stroke dimensions of RE. Don't get me wrong, I am supportive of Honda here. Because of them, us customers now have a great alternate choice to RE.

• But against Splendor, they came up with Shine 100, a bike which doesn't have any qualities of Splendor whatsoever. Shine 100 looks frail, feels small, is too light, does not have a torque focussed horizontal engine and it's latest 100cc engine still lags behind in overall performance compared to Splendor's ~ 40 years old 97.2cc horizontal engine. Even worse, multiple fuel efficiency tests on youtube prove that Shine 100 is not as fuel efficient as Splendor either. So there it is, Shine 100 is another half baked, half hearted attempt like erstwhile Dream Yuga. Hero Splendor is so successful because it's a rugged bike based on the world famous Honda Super Cub. If they truly want to beat Splendor, then they need to make a similar and better motorcycle based on latest Super Cub 110.

• They sell XR150L, XR190L, CBR250R, CBR150R, CBR600RR, CD70, Pridor 100, etc. in our neighboring countries viz- Pakistan, Nepal & Bangladesh. Among these, XR150L is the Honda equivalent of Hero Impulse 150, Pridor 100 with horizontal 97.2cc engine is Honda's version of Hero Splendor and XR190L is the dualsport version of Hornet 2.0 / CB200X with same 184cc engine. And yes, HMSI is still producing bs4 CBR250R for exporting to Nepal. What's stopping Honda from launching all these bikes in India, when there's clearly a market for all these products?

• Why no ADV's under 500cc? Is it too much to ask for CRF300L Rally? If launched, it would be the perfect ADV for India. They are already making that 286cc LC engine in India for CB300R, so they can locally make the CRF if they want to.

Pridor 100 in Pakistan. Perfect competition for Splendor, gets same 97.2cc slopper engine too


XR 150L in Nepal. We got this one as Hero Impulse, thanks to Hero Motocorp


XR190L in Nepal. Uses Hornet's 184cc engine and just 123kg kerb weight. Imagine the fun!


CBR 150R in Bangladesh


CBR 250R in Nepal


CBR 600RR in Nepal


CRF 300L Rally available in Nepal. It's the perfect ADV for India. CBR's ultra reliable 286cc engine, 27hp, more suspension travel than Hero Xpulse Rally and weighs just 153kg! Those who follow Itchy Boots should know just how capable this machine is. Sadly, we may never get this in India


If not the CRF then at least launch this, the XRE 300. Brazilian, handsome, simple, capable, flex fuel ready.

[RD150]

So many threads on how Honda have failed to capitalize the Indian market inspite of being here for so long time.

When market was booming with diesel cars, Honda kept focusing on the Ivtec, and finally launched the Idtec when market demanded turbo petrols

When SUV's were ruling the charts, ignorant and arrogant Honda kept slogging the City. Now they have launched the Elevate, which I feel is too late.

Honda 2 wheelers is no different. They launched the CB150r against the R15, R15 today is R15 V4. Yamaha did not let the R15 die. Honda literally killed the CB150/250 R.

Honda either launches a half baked product, or launches a good product at insane price. When people loose interest, they start giving discounts eg: Honda CB300r at current revised pricing is a steal imho.

I want Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki to stay in our market, because no other brands can even come close when it comes to engine refinement, reliability and build quality.

[Sam800]

Originally Posted by pranavshet

. Commuters are expected to be reliable workhorses. How can engines that have clocked 15k or 30k km emit white smoke? These people advertise “Honda trust, Honda reliability”. Why advertise such when you can’t put it to practice?

This can also be attributed by poor maintenance by these people. These commuter bikes are bought by people who need a mode of transport from A to B in most efficient way. They don't remember to service their bikes every 3000 kms as recommended, and old burnt oil keeps running in the engine for long time. Even if they do, they simply go to their known mechanic who pours local unknown brand mineral engine oil which is hardly able to keep its lubrication properties for 2000kms and people drive it year long, covering 7-8k kms. And oil they use just cost 250rs for 900ml. Even this feels costly to them.
Mechanics also use same oil for all 100 to 200cc bikes which comes to their shop.

Also many times I have been to spare parts shop, be it car spares or two wheeler, hardly I saw people buying engine oil based on its technology or viscosity. People just mention their vehicles name and buy the cheapest oil available in the shop. I guess these are one of biggest factors in engines going weak prematurely.

BUT... The hero hondas of yesteryears who went through similar abuse still stand rock solid today (90s to 2010).
So yes, parts have suffered quality issues but if people took better care of their vehicles, this could be avoided to a good extent

[antz.bin]

Companies that are solely reliant on sub 12hp (9kW) vehicles have a lot of competition incoming from OEMs selling electric vehicles. EVs have them beaten badly on the one USP of low running costs. If you have a fixed parking spot, either at home or at office, you can get an EV. Simple as that. We are already used to charging our phones every night. The charging experience on an EV is not too dissimilar if you can charge it in your home parking.

Removable and swappable batteries will address this drawback but that is a work in progress. Bajaj/TVS/Hero have jumped on the EV bandwagon, but the Japanese are lagging in this regard. It won't be long transition when the Indian EVs swipe away Honda's lunch while they sit in the corner crying about what went wrong.

To offset the loss of sales in the sub 12hp segments, Bajaj (KTM, Triumph), Hero (Harley) and TVS(BMW) are also investing in A2 license products which have relevance all over the world. Honda (and for that matter Yamaha) also have those products, but they refuse to sell them in India at competitive prices. Had they done that, Honda (and Yamaha) could have nipped this revolution in the bud and not let these company capture market share the world over, but they let this happen since the Japanese were more intent on short term profits by selling A2 license bikes at astronomical prices.