[v4run]

Standardising the charging ports, say mandated from march 2024 will kill the innovation that is yet to come from the local manufacturers. The reason CCS can’t be used on 2 wheelers is because they are too big for the use case. The 2 wheeler market is still in its infancy and the best will come out from the rest. Ather is currently leading the pack right now and recently Hero has also joined the bandwagon. A total of 1900 fast chargers in the country. I believe that the F77 and the Ola use the same charging connector so maybe they can join hands to setup more stations too ( considering how Ola (doesn’t)works I don’t think f77 will join hands with them though). But the only solution that I see for the next 3 years Atleast is to use adapters, like how Tesla does in the states. Until everybody settles down on the common standard this is an effective solution and I also think government shouldn’t interfere in this just yet. As a Vida owner I’m happy that I can charge at ather stations worry free, the nearest station is just 500m away from my house.

[kaushalswarup]

Mandating a standardised connector is good. This will ensure that a common charging grid can be utilised regardless of brand/make of the electric vehicle.
BUT, the electric 2W market is still nascent. A few more years of innovation, and increased competition should help in ensuring a future-proof charging connector standard is identified and mandated.

Also, Ather has the first-mover-advantage and it can reap the benefits of a widespread grid and proprietary connector.

[chandanzitto]

(A brief intro about me seems sensible before i give my opinion, I am the CEO/CTO of Zittomotors Pvt Ltd. We are a startup working on creating performance EV motorcycles targeted at the Enthusiasts, I am part of groups from NITI Aayog & BIS working on National open standards for BMS. I am not actively contributing to any of the project as of now, but i get to see the development and discussions upclose)

Creating a common charger plug is indeed a great option.We have seen that with CCS for cars and now NACS ( North American Charging Standard), the Tesla charger that was accepted by almost every manufacturer in US. Europe meanwhile has stuck to their CCS. China has it's own mandatory charger.( Which even Tesla had to comply).

It's indeed a delicate balance between fostering competition, innovation, and ensuring interoperability.But that cannot be created in a way that favors a company or acts detrimental to another. Herein lies the problem. Ather wants to make money from their preinstalled chargers and at the same time increase the charger deployment across the country with one swift move just like Tesla did with NACS. It would have been a great option if there weren't a plethora of EV companies having their own charging standards and they are all building competing infrastructure. Ather didn't make it open for everyone until they understood that it is not economically viable to make charging stations across the country single handed. Most of the competing companies have raised money pitching to investors that charging infrastructure would also be part of their revenue stream. So how is it then fair to ask a company who has invested significantly in creating a charging network of their own, to ditch it and use a new charging port and let every vehicle charge in their station? Mandating the charger would mean all the companies scrambling for suppliers, engineering changes to the vehicle while Ather gets to keep producing with no change. It might seem altruistic that a company be it Tesla or Ather is making something opensourced. Truth is it all boils down to money and sales.

Ather's charger while at 11kw might seem good enough now, will not be so going forward. For performance motorcycles the DC input is very soon going to breach 11kw and even smaller scooters might do so in near future.

We at Zitto ,are building on CCS protocol for charging. We believe that motorcycles can utilize the same charging infra available for cars, the advantage being faster charging and abundance of charging stations.
Small scooters that are on sale in India cannot utilize this because CCS requires a high voltage architecture which till date no scooter in India has utilized and probably won't for a while more.

If government mandates ather's charger then every new innovation in charger will come to a grinding halt. This is counter productive, a charger defines a lot of things about the architecture of an EV. So by letting Ather's charger define the limits, how will any new innovation happen in the sector? Someone trying to make a scooter with 10 min fast charging will be stuck with a charger that cannot keep up. Imagine if government mandated that all commercial fleet operators should use CCS? Companies like Exponent energy will be shut down immediately.

From a consumer perspective, i understand the benefits of moving to a common standard. And i believe it could/will be done. Not by mandating but by allowing for companies to compete. At some point a standard would show clear advantages just like how CCS evolved as the superior standard for cars in India. Government didn't mandate any charger for cars till date,yet a charger became universal.

[thebikemaster]

The prime purpose of these EV vehicles is to reduce the damage we cause to the Earth. Nowadays I'm seeing EVs are more damaging our planet now.

I know its a starting phase, but that doesn't mean we should have a strong regulation to jointly develop technology and infrastructure for these.

How typeC got as a standard now, even the big giant Apple also came in line with it. So, it is better to think clearly and put a regulation in a country where 2 wheelers are selling like pani puris.

[pogo0120]

Standardization is the way to go. After all, this is power electronics and not consumer electronics!
If consumer electronics can standardize on almost everything, why not power electronics?

Standardization must have be the order by now. And people who claim, death of innovation, will keep saying so even 10 years from now. There is no end to that. Even if innovation ends, people will continue saying this.

Take for eg, laptop power chord. Almost every manufacturer intentionally makes power supply connector different, in the name of innovation. I have three different laptops and all different connectors. Now, who is talking about actual innovation here. All that the charger is doing is providing 14, 16, 18.5 or 21 volts DC power.

Same with smart phone charge connectors, until USB chargers came in. Even now, we have c type and non c type. (C should have been the logical choice as there is not polarity or direction of insert).

After all, these connectors just pump electricity into a battery of capacity max 10Kwhr. They can put a line or two for bus interface to talk like i2c or CAN bus or even ONE wire bus. Or, the bus can be made wireless, which seems to be way everything is going now..

Final thoughts- You will see all these people keep whining about creativity and innovation for not getting to a common standard, while end consumers suffer.

One of the reason I did not buy River indie is because of non standard connector. Even if some super innovation comes up, these charging connectors can be made replaceable, upgradable on the scooter. I do not see some cryogenic rocket science here. Just excuses not to come along in the name of innovation. And a government with no vision, just marketing stunts..

[hemj]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

Govt regulations should always be technology agnostic.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Eg. Haven't we all been singularly blaming the Govt. for lack of regulation when it comes to safety in automobiles which is allowing certain manufacturers to continue cars that are less safe than others? Or Uber/ Ola continuing with practices that aren't driver/rider friendly?

Both your points are not mutually exclusive. I can see how it might seem so.

Eg., They can mandate that we can only draw 10kW max for a 2W charger for protection of the grid, but not which charger we use to draw that.
They can mandate building regulations with a certain structural strength, but can't dictate the materials we use to achieve it.

They can sure tell us to not do something if it's causing harm to the public, but not otherwise.

If the govt were to mandate a common charging standard for 2W fast charging, which connector do you suppose they should choose? We know there are no pioneers of 2W charging sitting in a sarkari office with the knowhow to decide that. Surely it can't be athers' as they have the widest currently available network or olas' as they are the highest selling EV at the moment. These would be arbitrary decisions tilting the business in someone's favour.

The 4W EV manufacturers have themselves decided to use because they see no advantage in using a proprietary charger. Someday the 2W EV space will evolve to the same conclusion and a standard will evolve by itself.

[pogo0120]

Originally Posted by hemj

If the govt were to mandate a common charging standard for 2W fast charging, which connector do you suppose they should choose? We know there are no pioneers of 2W charging sitting in a sarkari office with the knowhow to decide that.

There are institutions and means for Government to do this. It is done all the time. Have you heard of ISI. Or BIS. These institutions are meant for this type of work.

ELCIMA, SIAM together with few IITs can easily work out standards, interoperability along with industry partners, systematically with request for discussion, suggestion and set standards.

The 4W EV manufacturers have themselves decided to use because they see no advantage in using a proprietary charger. Someday the 2W EV space will evolve to the same conclusion and a standard will evolve by itself.

You are wrong. Government forced all players at to switch to CCS-2 and CHAdeMOI (IS:17017-1, published by the BIS in August 2018, CCS-2 (Combined Charging System Combo 2) and I guess, Mahindra verito EV onwards. Government did not get involved when REVA was the only player, but as soon as Mahindra, Tata etc started

[aashishnb]

Here's a simpler solution....

For 2W, everyone can have any type of charger port. They just need to provide those adapters so that it can be used by anyone else.

There are numerous examples already:
1. Power adapters we use when traveling abroad
2. Mobile converters to convert C-type port to 3.5mm audio jack
3. USB cables which have output in - lighting, micro-USB & C-type.

Now, of course these adapters may end up becoming less efficient just like mobile adapters - 'super fast charger' vs 'fast charger' vs 'normal'.

Buyers will, depending on their budget, tend to gravitate towards the 'C-type' equivalent as against 'micro-USB' equivalent.

Eventually, like someone said before, manufacturers may decide - not worth the hassle & lets use the port that has the maximum acceptance/circulation.

For the charging network providers, ideal scenario - to make charger guns compatible with multiple type of ports so that they are idle for lesser time.

[pogo0120]

Originally Posted by aashishnb

Here's a simpler solution....

For 2W, everyone can have any type of charger port. They just need to provide those adapters so that it can be used by anyone else.

There are numerous examples already:
1. Power adapters we use when traveling abroad
2. Mobile converters to convert C-type port to 3.5mm audio jack
3. USB cables which have output in - lighting, micro-USB & C-type.

Technically not possible. You see, you are comparing power electronics with data bus. All USBs operate at 5V DC and have no issues with interoperability when C type is converted to Non C type and so on.

Here, battery charging voltage may change based on configuration of battery. There is 48V (52V), 80V and and I donot what else exists. So, changing adapters at the front end will not help. Even charging voltage, power electronics need to change.

Though look complex, government can easily mandate standard type charger for batteries less than 5KWhr or replaceable batteries. All companies are taking customers for a ride. Trying to lock them out in their ecosystem.