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Originally Posted by hikozaru I know I really shouldn't be getting into pointless flame wars but this is a textbook example of the saying "if you want someone to answer your question, post a wrong answer, a hundred people will pile on to your thread to correct you". |
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It is not unreasonable to expect Yamaha to compete against the KTM390 if they suddenly decided to come back to the market after a 5 year absence without an updated bike. All that said, I still think Yamaha will sell about 300 of them looking at Ninja 400 sales at this price.
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Expectations are based on ones personal view of the world, or that of the community - they are not objective.
Yamaha or any other manufacturer can never match KTMs price performance in any segment.
Take the KTM 790/890 - it literally kills every other bike in that segment across the world - and yet you will hear about the service horror stories and why people got rid of this ideal bike simply because of quality issues.
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If the new Bajaj manufactured Triumphs, Royal enfields are good enough for europeans who have the best motorcycle market ever, I see no reason to believe we aren't there or that we will never get there in the future.
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These bikes are just about reaching the point where the metallurgy and quality starts becoming a challenge
Europeans are smart people - If they buy an Enfield, they know it cruises happily at 90 kph and wont push it to 120.
They buy bikes that fit their requirement and personal style.
The Indian manufacturer has reached the ability to build bikes that rev to 9000 RPM or so and produce around 40 HP max
Things start getting dicier when you try to make smaller engines rev harder and so on.
It will take about 5 to 10 years before you can have an R15 class of bike (the kind that never gets any engine trouble after 100000 KM) made 100% in India
My bet is on Enfield doing this first - because even older Enfields were designed to do this, even though the execution was terrible.
I feel Bajaj etc are too late in the game - by now we should have seen a CBZ-600 - they are only interested in scooters and volume.
Even KTM, succumbed to laziness and put some suspension and fairing on a Duke chassis an call it an adventure bike (if you dont believe this, ask Shumi if KTM ADV is an adventure bike, or a jugaad label to keep gullible people happy until they get the 2025 adventure chassis into it)
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Guess what, no one is buying a new 2013 Duke in 2023. They are buying the more reliable 2024 Duke in 2023.
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Its taken them 10 years to sort out the issues that the original Duke had - the 2017, 2019, 2020 updates, the intermediate updates with the cooling fan etc.
Their service is super pro-active, so we don't see people bitching so much.
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And then I saw motorinc's video of Shumi's Duke 390 https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=8DmoAOguGbI While the heresy against the Ninja 400 isn't so obvious here, one fine day I had a thought, why is this guy who has ridden an Aprilia V4, owns a Multistrada, choose to ride a Duke 390 instead of the top A2 bike, the Ninja 400?
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I meet Shumi every track day and have known him since 2013ish - he is the last person to say that the bikes he buys are universally best.
That's absolutely the opposite of what he preaches - he wants you to ride the bike you enjoy and he wants you to get as much value as you can for your money.
Shumi bought a Duke when the Duke was the absolute God among the competition - he bought more expensive motorbikes as he was able to afford them (he is nowhere so rich he can buy whatever he wants whenever he chooses).
Obviously when he went from his previous bike to a Duke, the leap was 10x more than buying the next superbike.
The Duke is the single all purpose bike in Indian conditions, as a single bike garage bike no denying it.
People dont keep buying bikes in the same class - typically they buy bigger more powerful bikes, or a completely different style.
He sells his bike so he can experience other bikes - if he can afford a Tuono and he will never sell it either - he keeps game changing motorbikes (as per his personal idea of game changing)
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Now, that I've also ridden both the Duke 390 and the R3, I can say that my next bike will be a KTM390. It is important to remember that we are not buying just engines when we buy a bike. A bike also has to brake well, turn well and all that stuff and the R3 just doesn't cut it, at least in stock trim. I don't care when Autocar India tells me RACR won some championship on a R3 and not the RC390 because I know that they run adjustable levers, aftermarket rearsets, steel braided lines, better brake pads, suspension that has been set up for the rider's weight, high performance 140 section tyres that seem to be quite elusive in Bangalore, race exhausts, all of which is going to cost more money.
When other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays, I believe them, but I still don't care because I am looking at A2 bikes precisely because I don't want to go fast, I just want to feel fast which KTM provides in spades.
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RACR wins against RC390s that also have Ohlins shocks, powertronics, and what not
I am that "other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays" and I am not alone - many competitive racers have switched away - have a look at Anthony Jebaraj's video - he himself said that until the 2022 version of the RC 390, it was very hard to ride RC 390s like Yamahas.
My RC 390 has YSS, powertronics, and so on - yet I am very much more confident and ride better on this stock R3
Ask Navneeth (the Notorious)
Ask Rajeev Sethu
Ask Yammie Noob
Ask anyone who has learned on a Yamaha R15
They just handle better, most riders wont see that in street riding
You are not looking at A2 or no A2
If you had money you would buy a 600 class maybe
What do you mean "feel fast" - that's only emotion talking
You like that surging midrange of a single cylinder - that's a subjective choice, that's what the Classic 500 and GT 535 felt back in that era.
The Japanese bikes are not pedestalized - they simply work better and last longer when pushed hard - they are refined - you will experience that when you ride bikes to their limit
There is a 2011 Yamaha Tenere that has done 170000 MILES without an engine job
This kind of endurance is seen in all the big 4 Japanese bikes
I've done about 20 trackdays on an RC 390 and 4 of them on a souped up one
One track day on an R3 made me feel like the RC is completely an ass with a golden saddle
I've actually sold my RC now and retained all the soup-up parts for my 2013 Duke
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The bottom line is you are getting an improved Yamaha R3 at a similar price as what you paid in 2016
The value proposition is the same
Exactly the same as say Enfield - 5 years back you got a vibey unreliable Classic 350
Now you get exactly similar looks, with a new engine, no vibes, no unreliability
Same with KTM, except KTM has added more stuff due to cost cutting, building stuff in India
I am a Yamaha fanboy, but that doesn't change the facts - It cannot be priced lower unless its a CKD, or indigenously manufactured.
I dont recommend people to buy an R3 - it is a high budget bike, but if they have experienced an R15 and have money then it is definitely moneys worth at this CBU price as long as you are into sport touring and track riding.
If I buy another bike in this 400 cc class it will be the Himalayan, only because it provides something the Duke and the R3 don't - offroad capacity, pillion comfort and relaxed riding