[ChauhanSaurabh]

I am more pained to imagine that this goof up by Yamaha will only give Aprilia some more room to increase the prices after this introductory wave of 4.1L.

[parrys]

Originally Posted by blue_wizard_v12

At this price, I wonder if they can even clear the first batch of CBU imports.Yamaha rocked it again.
They took dark side of Japan too seriously in India.

From Dark Side of Japan, to some Dark Corner of Showroom, this transition will happen very soon.

This pricing is worse than even some Honda launches from the past.
The engines are lovely, but that's it. Both bikes have nothing else to offer.

[Amrit@wheels]

This is officially dead on arrival. No one in their right mind would pay so much for these outdated machines over what we have available for a lesser price. Very disappointed as I was eagerly waiting for an updated MT03 to replace my FZ25 in near future.
No Yamaha!

[RD150]

This makes even the outdated Ninja 300 look vfm. What exactly does this R3 get over the Ninja 300 to justify such insane pricing? Just because it's a CBU, doesn't mean it's going to be better. I fear even the dealers would be careful while ordering these bikes.

[ChauhanSaurabh]

Originally Posted by RD150

This makes even the outdated Ninja 300 look vfm. What exactly does this R3 get over the Ninja 300 to justify such insane pricing? Just because it's a CBU, doesn't mean it's going to be better. I fear even the dealers would be careful while ordering these bikes.

I had the same thought while discussing this Yamaha insanity with a 2014 Ninja owner riding buddy yesterday. Apart from the bit outdated instrument cluster and Indian vendor brakes on Ninja300 I don't see anything in that bike as a downer compared to R3. Brakes can be upgraded. And the chassis on Ninja 300 is far better than R3 on twisties. Ohh and not to miss the slipper clutch advantages over R3.

[RT13]

In general I’m biased towards premium pricing where there’s a solid reason. I believe it’s fine to pay for quality. But this is simply off-the-charts bonkers! Only a die-hard Yammie fanboi who simply wants this particular brand would buy these. Then again, if they’re only looking to move double digit numbers a year, I’m sure there are enough of those in this vast country.

[HowDifferent?]

I had an eye on MT03 as a second bike to add a little weekend fun to my bike life. But Yamaha has disappointed and my search continues. But surely the bluesquare dealerships Yamaha announced are not to sell a handful of R3 and MT03? What is thier plan for these dealerships?

[thebikemaster]

Agreed it is a tough pricing. Do note, they are not producing this in India, so it will be hard for them to price it close to the Indian made RS and D390s.
But I feel, there will be customers who madly want these Japs. MT looks amazing, and people will sure upgrade to those.
Retails will be limited, but it will stay there for some time.

[saikishor]

On road price list as per Bikewale. No way is it selling in good numbers at these prices.

[surajspai]

Originally Posted by saikishor

On road price

The on road rate in Bangalore is simply madness.
Add to it a few thousands extra for the showroom insurance premium, handling charges, RTO agent charges and minimal accessories like sliders,protectors the price is comfortably 6 lakh on road.

Expected but still a let down.

[saikishor]

Originally Posted by surajspai

The on road rate in Bangalore is simply madness.
Add to it a few thousands extra for the showroom insurance premium, handling charges, RTO agent charges and minimal accessories like sliders,protectors the price is comfortably 6 lakh on road.

Expected but still a let down.

Bangalore prices are generally known to be on the higher side. Even the lowest onroad price, i.e. that of Ahmedabad is still very high.

Onroad price of 4.5 lacs would've been sweet but looks like that is not how it works. I am not very sure to what extent of discounts Yamaha will be offering once they understand that this bike will not move off the showroom floors.

[rep_movsd]

Regarding the new YZF-R3 pricing

The general public and many of the Moto-journalist comunity are very "disappointed" - the complaint is "This is not worth the price" and "Dead on arrival"

I have a slightly different perspective based on numbers, which disagrees with the popular rhetoric - Math always tells the truth, even if emotions say the opposite

In any case here is my viewpoint:

Lets take the original 2014 RC390 and the 2023 RC390 (as available now with the 373 cc engine, not the new 399)

Ex showroom price in 2015 - 2.1 L
Ex showroom price in 2023 - 3.2 L
Value of 2.1 L rupees from 2015 today (inflation) - 3.2L

So in 2023, for exactly same price you get
1) Lighter wheels
2) Adjustable suspension
3) Slipper Assist clutch
4) TFT display
5) Traction control and other electronic aids
6) BS6

I would put the value of these items at about 50,000 extra cost to the manufacturer
Fantastic deal, kudos to KTM

Now lets take the 2016 YZF-R3 and the 2024 R3

Ex showroom price in 2015 - 3.25 L
Ex showroom price in 2023 - 4.65 L
Value of 3.25 L rupees from 2015 today (inflation) - 4.75 L

For 10000 less you get the following extra
1) USD forks
2) ABS
3) Claimed 7% increase in aerodynamics
4) BS6

The value added would be about 25000 at most


I won't talk about styling etc. because its subjective - there are people claiming that the Dukes or MT series bike look nice, they can believe that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So my point is this:

Every decent manufacturer of bikes provides more bike for the same money as time passes.
The R3 is not indigenized at all, and we got a CBU then and we get a CBU now - 100% imported.

The quality of CKD or Indian manufactured bikes can never match that of a CBU imported bike - especially not a Japanese bike. One has to look at the KTM story - the overheating, stator coil failures, the incorrect sprocket washer installing that made bikes potentially (or actually?) crash, cylinder head issues.
Only after 10 years they have reached a much better level of service and reliability.

In terms of business strategy, Yamaha probably doesn't realize or care about this 400cc supersport market in India enough to consider doing local manufacture - I bet they take one look at the bureaucracy and skill of Indian workers and decide it would never work for high end products.

So my point is - people who like Yamahas paid a premium then, they pay a premium now, for the best in this segment - I have ridden a Bullet 350, Machismo, 535 Lightning, Classic 500, Honda CB 500R (1993), Duke 390, Hyperstrada 821 on road and RC 390, R15 V1, R15 V3, RC 390 (with full race suspension and Powertronics ECU etc.) on track days

My fairly objective opinion after riding all these, and looking at the ownership and opinions of other track riders and buddies - is that the Yamaha stands very much above in terms of quality, handling and reliability.

This Japanese bike premium applied even back in the RD-350 days.

To conclude - its certainly worth the money being charged, its a pity we cant get CKD or localized version, but it's also unlikely you can maintain same quality if done so, until Indian manufacture evolves more.

Haters gonna hate, but this is my viewpoint

[hikozaru]

I know I really shouldn't be getting into pointless flame wars but this is a textbook example of the saying "if you want someone to answer your question, post a wrong answer, a hundred people will pile on to your thread to correct you".

This is one of those rare cases where the maths and emotions (as you put it) are both true. You are right that this is more or less what we should have expected the R3 to cost given the minor spec bump, slightly better OE tyres, increased shipping costs in 2023 compared to pre covid times. But I'd argue that your dismissal of of Indian consumers' expectations as '(implied to be baseless) emotion' to be simply untrue. It is not unreasonable to expect Yamaha to compete against the KTM390 if they suddenly decided to come back to the market after a 5 year absence without an updated bike. All that said, I still think Yamaha will sell about 300 of them looking at Ninja 400 sales at this price.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

The quality of CKD or Indian manufactured bikes can never match that of a CBU imported bike - especially not a Japanese bike.

I really cannot believe you are arguing in good faith when you say this. This whole japanese bike wank has to stop. If the new Bajaj manufactured Triumphs, Royal enfields are good enough for europeans who have the best motorcycle market ever, I see no reason to believe we aren't there or that we will never get there in the future. At the absolute bottom end, there are plenty of Pulsars, apaches, Dominars in South America, Africa, SEA.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

Only after 10 years they have reached a much better level of service and reliability.

Guess what, no one is buying a new 2013 Duke in 2023. They are buying the more reliable 2024 Duke in 2023.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

This Japanese bike premium applied even back in the RD-350 days.

Sure, in an era when european bikes were universally bad, they were not available as an option at all and Indian bikes weren't good enough which is no longer the case. I see more tridents, street triples, S100RR in Bangalore than anything from Japanese marques except Kawasaki.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

My fairly objective opinion after riding all these, and looking at the ownership and opinions of other track riders and buddies - is that the Yamaha stands very much above in terms of quality, handling and reliability.

I beg to differ after riding the latest Duke. Before I had ridden both the Duke 390 and the R3, when I prayed at the altar of the Japanese gods, I watched this video from 44teeth (who I must say are both incredibly fast and safe riders, ride a lot more than us, ride a lot more variety than us)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGgl5-GBS4U

and I was shocked that both chose the Duke over the R3. Heresy! Blasphemy! How could a vibey KTM single be better than a multi cylinder bike blessed by the gods in Japan. And then I saw motorinc's video of Shumi's Duke 390

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DmoAOguGbI

While the heresy against the Ninja 400 isn't so obvious here, one fine day I had a thought, why is this guy who has ridden an Aprilia V4, owns a Multistrada, choose to ride a Duke 390 instead of the top A2 bike, the Ninja 400? Why has he sold his street triple, and other bikes but still has his Duke 390? Now, that I've also ridden both the Duke 390 and the R3, I can say that my next bike will be a KTM390. It is important to remember that we are not buying just engines when we buy a bike. A bike also has to brake well, turn well and all that stuff and the R3 just doesn't cut it, at least in stock trim. I don't care when Autocar India tells me RACR won some championship on a R3 and not the RC390 because I know that they run adjustable levers, aftermarket rearsets, steel braided lines, better brake pads, suspension that has been set up for the rider's weight, high performance 140 section tyres that seem to be quite elusive in Bangalore, race exhausts, all of which is going to cost more money. Meanwhile the KTM 390s really are 'ready to race'. To me, Japanese bikes and cars meant fill it (petrol) and run it, except in this case, its the other way around. This is my math and it tells me that the R3 doesn't just cost 6L on road, it will cost me a lot more to set it up for myself. Meanwhile I can tour India, buy some leathers instead of renting them, do a few trackdays on a KTM 390 for that money. I can get a KTM fixed after a crash far more quickly than I can a bike that is made of imported parts. This can mean the difference between continuing a long tour or canceling it midway. This is my math and is not 'emotions that say the opposite'.

When other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays, I believe them, but I still don't care because I am looking at A2 bikes precisely because I don't want to go fast, I just want to feel fast which KTM provides in spades.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

Haters gonna hate, but this is my viewpoint

No one is hating on these bikes, certainly not on this thread at least. Its full of people who wanted this bike. And despite all that KTM praise, I would still buy a R3 for 3.5L ex showroom, if you are listening Yamaha.

Just a suggestion to people on the fence, I recommend test riding a Japanese twin, and an i4, especially in their stock form and get it (placing japanese bikes on a pedestal) out of your system. If you still like them, buy all means go ahead.

[rep_movsd]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

I know I really shouldn't be getting into pointless flame wars but this is a textbook example of the saying "if you want someone to answer your question, post a wrong answer, a hundred people will pile on to your thread to correct you".

It is not unreasonable to expect Yamaha to compete against the KTM390 if they suddenly decided to come back to the market after a 5 year absence without an updated bike. All that said, I still think Yamaha will sell about 300 of them looking at Ninja 400 sales at this price.

Expectations are based on ones personal view of the world, or that of the community - they are not objective.
Yamaha or any other manufacturer can never match KTMs price performance in any segment.

Take the KTM 790/890 - it literally kills every other bike in that segment across the world - and yet you will hear about the service horror stories and why people got rid of this ideal bike simply because of quality issues.

If the new Bajaj manufactured Triumphs, Royal enfields are good enough for europeans who have the best motorcycle market ever, I see no reason to believe we aren't there or that we will never get there in the future.

These bikes are just about reaching the point where the metallurgy and quality starts becoming a challenge
Europeans are smart people - If they buy an Enfield, they know it cruises happily at 90 kph and wont push it to 120.
They buy bikes that fit their requirement and personal style.

The Indian manufacturer has reached the ability to build bikes that rev to 9000 RPM or so and produce around 40 HP max
Things start getting dicier when you try to make smaller engines rev harder and so on.

It will take about 5 to 10 years before you can have an R15 class of bike (the kind that never gets any engine trouble after 100000 KM) made 100% in India

My bet is on Enfield doing this first - because even older Enfields were designed to do this, even though the execution was terrible.

I feel Bajaj etc are too late in the game - by now we should have seen a CBZ-600 - they are only interested in scooters and volume.

Even KTM, succumbed to laziness and put some suspension and fairing on a Duke chassis an call it an adventure bike (if you dont believe this, ask Shumi if KTM ADV is an adventure bike, or a jugaad label to keep gullible people happy until they get the 2025 adventure chassis into it)

Guess what, no one is buying a new 2013 Duke in 2023. They are buying the more reliable 2024 Duke in 2023.

Its taken them 10 years to sort out the issues that the original Duke had - the 2017, 2019, 2020 updates, the intermediate updates with the cooling fan etc.

Their service is super pro-active, so we don't see people bitching so much.

And then I saw motorinc's video of Shumi's Duke 390 https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=8DmoAOguGbI While the heresy against the Ninja 400 isn't so obvious here, one fine day I had a thought, why is this guy who has ridden an Aprilia V4, owns a Multistrada, choose to ride a Duke 390 instead of the top A2 bike, the Ninja 400?

I meet Shumi every track day and have known him since 2013ish - he is the last person to say that the bikes he buys are universally best.
That's absolutely the opposite of what he preaches - he wants you to ride the bike you enjoy and he wants you to get as much value as you can for your money.

Shumi bought a Duke when the Duke was the absolute God among the competition - he bought more expensive motorbikes as he was able to afford them (he is nowhere so rich he can buy whatever he wants whenever he chooses).
Obviously when he went from his previous bike to a Duke, the leap was 10x more than buying the next superbike.

The Duke is the single all purpose bike in Indian conditions, as a single bike garage bike no denying it.
People dont keep buying bikes in the same class - typically they buy bigger more powerful bikes, or a completely different style.

He sells his bike so he can experience other bikes - if he can afford a Tuono and he will never sell it either - he keeps game changing motorbikes (as per his personal idea of game changing)

Now, that I've also ridden both the Duke 390 and the R3, I can say that my next bike will be a KTM390. It is important to remember that we are not buying just engines when we buy a bike. A bike also has to brake well, turn well and all that stuff and the R3 just doesn't cut it, at least in stock trim. I don't care when Autocar India tells me RACR won some championship on a R3 and not the RC390 because I know that they run adjustable levers, aftermarket rearsets, steel braided lines, better brake pads, suspension that has been set up for the rider's weight, high performance 140 section tyres that seem to be quite elusive in Bangalore, race exhausts, all of which is going to cost more money.

When other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays, I believe them, but I still don't care because I am looking at A2 bikes precisely because I don't want to go fast, I just want to feel fast which KTM provides in spades.

RACR wins against RC390s that also have Ohlins shocks, powertronics, and what not

I am that "other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays" and I am not alone - many competitive racers have switched away - have a look at Anthony Jebaraj's video - he himself said that until the 2022 version of the RC 390, it was very hard to ride RC 390s like Yamahas.

My RC 390 has YSS, powertronics, and so on - yet I am very much more confident and ride better on this stock R3

Ask Navneeth (the Notorious)
Ask Rajeev Sethu
Ask Yammie Noob
Ask anyone who has learned on a Yamaha R15

They just handle better, most riders wont see that in street riding

You are not looking at A2 or no A2
If you had money you would buy a 600 class maybe

What do you mean "feel fast" - that's only emotion talking
You like that surging midrange of a single cylinder - that's a subjective choice, that's what the Classic 500 and GT 535 felt back in that era.


The Japanese bikes are not pedestalized - they simply work better and last longer when pushed hard - they are refined - you will experience that when you ride bikes to their limit
There is a 2011 Yamaha Tenere that has done 170000 MILES without an engine job
This kind of endurance is seen in all the big 4 Japanese bikes


I've done about 20 trackdays on an RC 390 and 4 of them on a souped up one
One track day on an R3 made me feel like the RC is completely an ass with a golden saddle

I've actually sold my RC now and retained all the soup-up parts for my 2013 Duke

-----------------------------------

The bottom line is you are getting an improved Yamaha R3 at a similar price as what you paid in 2016
The value proposition is the same

Exactly the same as say Enfield - 5 years back you got a vibey unreliable Classic 350
Now you get exactly similar looks, with a new engine, no vibes, no unreliability

Same with KTM, except KTM has added more stuff due to cost cutting, building stuff in India


I am a Yamaha fanboy, but that doesn't change the facts - It cannot be priced lower unless its a CKD, or indigenously manufactured.

I dont recommend people to buy an R3 - it is a high budget bike, but if they have experienced an R15 and have money then it is definitely moneys worth at this CBU price as long as you are into sport touring and track riding.

If I buy another bike in this 400 cc class it will be the Himalayan, only because it provides something the Duke and the R3 don't - offroad capacity, pillion comfort and relaxed riding

[hikozaru]

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

I am that "other forum members say that they are faster on a stock R3 vs a souped up RC390 on trackdays" and I am not alone - many competitive racers have switched away - have a look at Anthony Jebaraj's video - he himself said that until the 2022 version of the RC 390, it was very hard to ride RC 390s like Yamahas.

Do you have a link to this video or his channel? It looks like it is no longer an issue from 2022+ models?

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

You like that surging midrange of a single cylinder - that's a subjective choice, that's what the Classic 500 and GT 535 felt back in that era.

I like the R3 engine over the duke 390 actually. Its got way more top end and I prefer the bottom end being muted for better city riding anyway.

Originally Posted by rep_movsd

if they have experienced an R15

Indeed, with no timeline for an updated RC390 with new duke gizmos, I am vacillating between the new duke and the R15 (lacklustre brakes aside).