[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by aargee

Purpose, plays an important role as well. Here's an identical comparison.

More questions:

1) How does the suspension compare? Motorcycles always have a better ride quality when compared to scooters? Even if a motorcycle has monoshocks?

2) Typically, is a 100 cc scooter peppier than 100 cc motorcycle at city speeds?

[anjan_c2007]

We have the lighter mopeds, scooterettes, scooters, step-throughs and then those bikes from 100 cc to whatever cc one can think of.

Basically, back to the topic you can vrooom on the scooter, while with a bike, you ride.

Talking about bikes and their fuel consumption, the same RPM of its engine moves the bike to a longer distance than a scooter that has wheels of a lower diameter.

In the earlier generation of scooters we had the Lambretta/Lamby, Vespa/Bajaj, Fantabulus, Rajdoot Runabout, Narmada, Priya, the Vijai joint family and maybe a few more that I have missed. Of these, the Vespa/Bajaj, Narmada and Priya had a shaft driven direct drive transmission. Vespas have been shaft driven all along right since their birth in Italy. The others that were chain driven had more moving components resulting in a marginal loss of power with slightly higher fuel consumption. The oldest Vespas under our traffic conditions consumed 38 kmpl while Lambrettas did 30 kmpl. And more the moving components, more the appended niggles that was also compounded by the deteriorating quality during the Licence Raj. This was due to both obstinate manufacturers and price controls. But their inherited, robust Italian technology saw these emerging as solidly built and desired daily runners.

Essentially, our new class of scooters that have CVT are all belt driven starting with the Kinetic Honda, TVS Scooty, Hero Winner followed a swarm of invasions from the Far East. But most of these are built with a terrific precision and for instance these have zero tolerance for any micro leakages in their air suction/intake and fuel intake systems too. Its the same for the bikes. Even if there a pinhole in the secondary air filter outlet pipe, leading to the carburettor, it can create hell in the form of starting trouble. The electronics are advanced since ages. For instance, circa 1987 : just have a look at the Kinetic Honda's electrical wiring system by just using Google.

But if all these causative factors for niggles are taken care of, the newgen scooters run trouble free for years and years even with lots of abuse. It is 100% true with the newgen bikes too.

The old technology for both bikes and scooters was forgiving and their tolerance for the owners eccentricities was much more. But they used to create niggles on a host of issues, sometimes creating nightmares for its owner, even if TLC was accorded, in some cases. The new technology prompts and directs us to take care and give the two wheeler lots of TLC to get its unstinted and unblemished support.

[Burgman_tales]

Originally Posted by aargee

Suzuki was the last to adopt this technology; if I'm not wrong last Sep starting with Burgman & later in Access 125 that I'm voraciously vying to buy

I bought burgman in Jun'22 and I don't see anything different on their current brochure/website for this tech

[aargee]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

1) How does the suspension compare? Motorcycles always have a better ride quality when compared to scooters? Even if a motorcycle has monoshocks?

Swing arms Sir: swing arm of motorcycle suspen(sion)ded with wheel vs scooter's engine + wheel; ofcourse the mid mounted engine yields awesome balance & control {Ather, I remember had awesome handling than any Petrol scooter because of centrally mounted weight aka battery pack + Ather has swing arm like motorcycle, just the wheel}

Originally Posted by SmartCat

2) Typically, is a 100 cc scooter peppier than 100 cc motorcycle at city speeds?

I'm positive the "pep"pier is negligibly superior for scooter; we'll have to compare geared with geared or gearless with gearless vehicles to see true difference

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

More questions:

1) How does the suspension compare? Motorcycles always have a better ride quality when compared to scooters? Even if a motorcycle has monoshocks?

2) Typically, is a 100 cc scooter peppier than 100 cc motorcycle at city speeds?

Motorcycles have larger wheels, and hence longer travel suspensions than scooters. So the suspension effect is more. And the larger wheel will mostly go over smaller sized potholes, whereas the smaller scooter wheels will go in to all of them. Also, one sits astride a motorcycle, and has additional grip on the petrol tank with the knees,apart from the grip on the handlebars. In a scooter one is sitting like perched on a chair or stool, with only the grip on the handlebars. The chances of a fall are more.

A two wheeler balances by gyro effect. The wheels are actually gyroscopes. The larger the gyroscope, the stabler the vehicle will be. A motorbike will be inherently more stable than a scooter. And a 110 cc scooter will generally be peppier than a 110 cc bike initially because there is no need to change gears. But the bike will have more power and top speed because of the engine and transmission design.

Cars have automatic transmission, scooters have only CVT. The technology is different. So such a car may give similar FE as MT cars, but the CVT in scooters will not. And AMT cars are just MT cars,only the gear shifting is done differently. So they too will give similar FE as MT cars. Cars with CVT will not give same FE as MT cars. Motorcycles have MT and taller gearing, and a rider making optimum use of it will always derive higher performance as well as FE than a CVT scooter.

If we compare geared motorbikes with geared scooters, it will be a different story. As for starting issues, in my apartment complex I see some scooters start easily even after a few days, while some of the same model struggle a bit. And kick starting a cvt scooter is always a pain. In the old model Chetak/Vijay/Lambys it was possible to kick start even while sitting on the scooter if one was tall enough.

I don't think carbureted Vs FI engines make that much difference. My 2000 model Splendor has always started on the first or second kick, even after a gap of a few days. Both in coastal Chennai and also in Bangalore during December/January. It never gave any trouble. If the gap was too long, say about two weeks, a touch of choke was needed, that was all.

[shreyan_k10]

Originally Posted by aniketi

To answer this, I had Bajaj Caliber from 1998 to 2007 and Pulsar 180 which was bought in 2007 and I used it for 14 years till I sold it in 2022. Both never gave me such starting issues in their entire life. When I came back from US after a office visit for a month, Pulsar started in 2-3 button starts and no issues at all after raising (giving accelerator) it for a few seconds. Whereas in such scenarios, scooters give lots of trouble and takes lot of time for smooth ride till engine is sufficiently hot. I am sure there is some difference in technology.

+1
My 2007 Pulsar 150 and 2014 Jupiter (both carbs) do not have any starting issues even in winters. From what I have observed from my acquaintances, older Hondas are especially more prone to this issue. Not sure if the newer FI ones are better.

[aniketi]

Thanks all for your replies.

My main concern is related to starting issues I face with my Activa. If not used for 3-4 days, starting it is a pain. It's a well maintained scooter and still face such issues. Whereas my bike never ever troubled me even after I restart it 7-8 days or sometimes 10-15 days. Ideally, starting mechanism or technology should be similar in both, but it is not. Scooters always give you issues in starting if low usage is there.

I am interested to know the difference between starting mechanism mainly. Why scooters always give problems in starting and bikes not? Why can't they use same technology in scooters so as they start immediately?

[abhi9044]

I'm no qualified technician, but in my case, our HH Splendor(2003) is harder to start than our Hero Maestro (2014), although this wasn't the case earlier. Both of these rides have been well-maintained by me.

Both of these rides have done close to 50k.

I'll share from my experience the major problems that cause problems in Activa's starting(Sorry for going offboard).

1) Fuel Cock Assembly- This part is one of the most ignored one of the scooters. A faulty fuel cock can cause delayed starts, misfires, and a drop in fuel efficiency.



The fuel cock in Activa is vacuum operated. This means that the scooters as per their design use engine vacuum to bring fuel into the carburetor. Many times, this fuel cock's valve inside, gets stuck or torn. You'll witness issues such as engine misfires, late starts, scooter getting turned off, etc.
Also, the vacuum hose that runs from this fuel cock to the intake manifold of the scooter sometimes can get leaky. In this case too, it'll create similar issues.


On the other hand, the fuel cock in bikes is gravity fed. These do not require valves inside them and are less prone to failure by design.


Source- https://www.cyclepedia.com/manuals/o...fuel-delivery/

Also, the fuel line routing in scooters is longer than bikes. Somehow, if your carburetor overflowed overnight, then bringing fuel into the carburetor is going to take a little longer and thus longer cranks.

2)Carburetor Issues- What one needs to know is carburetors love vacuum. To seal it perfectly, most manufacturers use an insulator(a gasket) between the carburetor and the intake manifold. While servicing a carburetor, many mechanics remove carburetor from the bike/scooter. Here's where the problems begin.

In most bikes that I've seen, manufacturers don't use a paper gasket to seal the carburetor and the intake manifold. Instead they just use the insulator with an o ring. Here's an example:



Insulator of Splendor

Whereas in scooters, most manufacturers use a paper gasket along with a insulator.



Insulator of Activa.

Now, when the mechanics remove carburetors from the intake manifold, this paper gasket generally gets torn off. While fitting back, they don't put in a new one. Results? This-



Fuel leaks and loss of vacuum.
Note- Make sure to check your float O'Ring too. It can make wonders during cold starts.

I'll continue with the differences between bikes and scooters now.

3) CVT vs Fixed Speed Transmissions- Scooters use a CVT transmission whereas bikes use gears with fixed ratios. CVT transmissions as we know, are quite delicate and need proper care and maintenance. Plus they are dry type vs the bike gears which always have a nice layer of oil all around them.

The CVT also requires regular maintenance. Unlike cars, where fluid is used for moving the variator assembly, scooters use rollers. These rollers, if not properly installed or maintained, will cause juddering of the scooter, which in turn, will impact your fuel efficiency and performance.



Do note, the rollers recommended for different scooters are different. Mechanics generally swap them for one another. Example- Activa before 2010 used 17gm rollers whereas in later models a different weight roller was used.

4) Clutch- Scooters use dry-type centrifugal clutch whereas bikes use wet clutch systems.

5) Heat Management- This is one of the most important differences between the two. Bikes have their engine placed in front of the chassis thereby having ample airflow to cool themselves down.
Scooters, on the other hand, use a forced air cooling system. A fan is used to circulate air around the engine that is encased in a set of plastic panels. As a result, a similar engine will run a lot more hotter than an equivalent bike engine.

In Post 13 by bhpian aargee you can see that the 110cc engine used in CD110 and Activa is similar. However, the compression ratio is different. The Activa motor runs a slightly more conservative compression ratio. This is to reduce the heat produced by the engine. Also, the power produced by both engines is different. Activa produces almost 0.7kW less power than CD110.

[sanchari]

We have TVS Pep+ and Zest, and both have starting problems when left for unused for a week or more. The battery is new on the Zest, and still I have to use kick starter multiple times to get it to start. Pep+ is even worse.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Motorcycles have larger wheels, and hence longer travel suspensions than scooters. So the suspension effect is more. And the larger wheel will mostly go over smaller sized potholes, whereas the smaller scooter wheels will go in to all of them. Also, one sits astride a motorcycle, and has additional grip on the petrol tank with the knees,apart from the grip on the handlebars. In a scooter one is sitting like perched on a chair or stool, with only the grip on the handlebars. The chances of a fall are more.

A two wheeler balances by gyro effect. The wheels are actually gyroscopes. The larger the gyroscope, the stabler the vehicle will be. A motorbike will be inherently more stable than a scooter. And a 110 cc scooter will generally be peppier than a 110 cc bike initially because there is no need to change gears. But the bike will have more power and top speed because of the engine and transmission design

Hello Sir, not to dispute your experience: How a 12X10 inch wheeled Suzuki Burgman offers more comfortable ride than 18X18 wheeled Interceptor 650? Any thoughts pls?

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by aargee

Any thoughts pls?

I don't know. I have not ridden the Burgman so far. And whatever Enfields I have ridden/sat pillion on so far (limited number of times only) did not feel very cushy to me.

What I said goes for majority of the bikes and scooters. There will of course be exceptions on either side.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Gansan

I don't know. I have not ridden the Burgman so far. And whatever Enfields I have ridden/sat pillion on so far (limited number of times only) did not feel very cushy to me

What I said goes for majority of the bikes and scooters. There will of course be exceptions on either side.

Burgman/Access 125 has magic in their suspension {just like Splendor's magic rear suspension} setup that makes the ride better than Interceptor. And a point to note here is, Access has smaller suspension setup & shorter travel than a motorcycle's long travel in suspension

Since I've ridden both, it's not the larger wheels that makes the ride comfortable, it's the combination of the frame & swing arm that makes a lot of difference in engineering than just the wheels.

[Gansan]

^^ The larger wheels by themselves will make the ride more comfortable only to the extent they will go over certain sized potholes, while a scooter wheel will go in to almost all of them. I said larger wheels make higher suspension travel possible, therefore larger absorbers, and could be a reason for a cushier ride in motorbikes. Larger wheels make the ride more balanced and safer though.

But I note nowadays most scooters offer fork suspension in front, though their travel will be lesser than bike forks. And some bikes offer mono suspension in the rear similar to scooters, but still it will be larger than that of a scooter.

There may be exceptions on both sides. A sporty bike may have a stiffer suspension.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ The larger wheels by themselves will make the ride more comfortable only to the extent they will go over certain sized potholes, while a scooter wheel will go in to almost all of them. I said larger wheels make higher suspension travel possible, therefore larger absorbers, and could be a reason for a cushier ride in motorbikes. Larger wheels make the ride more balanced and safer though

But I note nowadays most scooters offer fork suspension in front, though their travel will be lesser than bike forks. And some bikes offer mono suspension in the rear similar to scooters, but still it will be larger than that of a scooter

If you like to have near identical example: CBR 250R vs Interceptor; former has 17" wheels while the 18" for latter

Originally Posted by Gansan

A sporty bike may have a stiffer suspension.

Sorry Sir: CBR250R is sports motorcycle vs Interceptor a classic one - C250R is like Volvo of 2 wheelers

Point: Wheel size don't matter much these days, it's the frame, design {swing arm esp} of the vehicle combined with suspension makes the size of wheel size near negligible for comfort