[pranavshet]

[quote=huntrz;5612012]Get ready for another paint and sticker job. We all know what "new platform" Hero Motocorp is capable of developing. Bajaj with all its drawbacks did evolve and also tried to develop things in-house as well as through collaborations and acquisitions and also got decent success.

Let me put the things in context:

1. When Hero was in a JV arrangement with Honda they were not allowed to set up an R&D Centre, and even when they tried to convince for Joint R&D efforts Honda refused to. Honda contended that the engine was like a heart & that could not allow any other partner to be part of such efforts.

Also, take into account that Hero had to build the entire R&D setup from scratch. At the time of the split, their R&D team was nonexistent. Today their R&D centers i.e. CIT in Jaipur & in Germany have a strength of 1000+ people.

To bring everything on your own the first time, mistakes are bound to happen. Products like the 2014 Karizma R & ZMR were the biggest casualties of the same. They were simply horrendous. They tried to rely on too much of external tech tie-ups rather than putting a proper R&D structure in place.
Lessons were learned the hard way.

The outcome was that Mr. Markus Braunsperger from BMW was hired as CTO. He was given world-class R&D facilities. They spent 850 crores on that CIT. The job was not yet done. The main challenge was to build a proper R&D Team across various verticals of the vehicle development process. Human capabilities had to be developed, talent had to be nurtured.

2. I guess this was the task assigned to Mr. Braunsperger during his 5-year stint at Hero.
To his credit, they launched their first motorcycle with an indigenous engine, the splendor ismart 110. The engine had tons of issues, they had issued a silent recall and changed multiple parts for initial batches. This was their learning phase. The later iterations of this engine were seen in Passion Pro and Xpro. Those bikes didn't have engine-related issues.

The less I talk about Maestro Edge & Duet the better it is. That vehicle had lots of vibration issues and fueling issues initially. The performance of the scooter was below par.

But the future iterations of duet were much more pleasant to ride. They improved a lot, but not still not even close to TVS & Bajaj & miles away from Japanese counterparts.

This was followed by multiple failures like Achiever, xtreme sports , xtreme 200 and Maestro Edge 125 They were decent products but nowhere close to Indian & Japanese Counterparts.

For me, the turning point for them was their participation in World Rally championships. They learned a lot in the process. The first signs of promise were seen in the form of xpulse. Even though the first iteration had lots of engine issues, it stood out because Hero dared to think differently. The enthusiasts gave them benefit of doubt. Also, it was not a grounds-up new engine. It was a bored-out version of the original unicorn engine hence the modest performance figures. The same engine was used in xtreme 200 & 200s & they were 2v engines.

For me, the first stand-out product in terms of styling from Hero after going solo was xtreme 160r. It looked brilliant. The engine was right up there. Hero had delivered its first baby who was blessed with an engine kill switch. It looked very youthful.

But after that, they stuttered a bit, they didn't have an impactful product after that. They were busy after that with the BS-6 transition. According to me, the Passion 110 BS-6 looks great but it's a bit too much for the target audience I suppose. A few initial batches of that bike did have gearbox issues.
In the later batches, the problem was rectified.

Last year they released a much-needed update to xpulse. They gave it a 4v setup. The engine revved much easier and was a lot more refined. Even this year they further improved the bike by giving it small updates.

In June this year they released a 4v version of xtreme 160, the quality of the product went up several notches in every department, the engine refined, the gearbox precise, and great handling making it a fun bike in its segment.
It showed that the R&D setup at Hero had finally started finding its feet.

For me, the biggest applaudable thing was when they launched the HD440X. If you see the product AV, you would have noted one big change, the R&D team had articulated the development process very nicely. The engine development was entirely done by Hero, basically, the entire platform was developed by Hero & inputs of HD were taken wherever required.
The styling may not be perfect but they have definitely nailed it when it comes to engine & handling.

We are 3 days away from seeing them entering uncharted territory 1st Liquid cooled engine, DOHC, 6-speed gearbox & slipper clutch with the return of Karizma. Their R&D spending is going up Year on year. That's a great sign.

In hindsight, it appears that Munjals did a great job of going solo in late 2010. Had they waited till 2014 for Hero Honda contract to run without any new inflow of tech, they would have been marginalized by now. Sure they have made a lot of blunders post-split but seeing their product launches for past 1 year, it gives me hope that they can deliver some great products.


TVS & Bajaj had a headstart over Hero as far as R&D is concerned of almost 10-15 years. Hero has somewhat managed to bridge the gap but is still away from them by a certain distance. Now the current CTO is a great find. He is a local guy & has experience working with famous Auto Majors in R&D Functions. I want all the 4 Indian manufacturers to do great.

Let's see what we get to witness on the 29th. Till then Ride safe guys.

[gururajrv]

This is being over confident. While you may have the original 220 Pulsar still in the line up - which apparently indicates the new Pulsars arent something to boast avout, Bajaj keep in mind the new gen Karizma will be far more superior in the tech and the engine department. Your NS lineup isn't something I'd like to recall being a Pulsar owner myself.

I thought people learn from history. Your history with Dominar mocking RE never took off in the right spirit. Guess you'll witness the same thing when the Karizma comes out. Respect your competitor in the right spirit.

[SoumenD]

Looks like they have forgotten the Dominar ad fiasco. And when did NS become killer for anything? Only real competitor to OG karizma was the P220. They better concentrate on their 250F/N series, else this new karizma if it turns out to be good can end up killing whatever little sales those get.

That aside Karizma was killed by Hero themselves rather than any competition. The faired contraption, followed by some more forgettable iterations killed it.

[neil.jericho]

Sadly, Bajaj's marketing department has become that guy from our college days who used to crack witty sophomoric jokes (to everyone's amusement at that time), but who somehow never realized that the world around him has changed since then. 20 years later, those same juvenile jokes elicit more ridicule and groans than laughter. Everyone just wishes that he would grow up and move on. We all have that one guy from our past who stays stuck in the past.

And since Bajaj is throwing around the Legend Killer monicker, perhaps they should look in the mirror and think about how many of their own strong brands have perished and how the company has knocked off and brought back endless variations of their motorcycles.

Instead of playing on negativity (and inadvertently playing the fool, though they remain oblivious to it), if only Bajaj used their creative juices to promote their new motorcycles.....

[BleueNinja]

How has Bajaj gone from the iconic "Definitely male" to "haathi mat paalo" and now this is beyond me.

The irony is that Pulsar 220 had to be brought back from the dead because their new 250 pulsars wouldn't sell. As far as I know many Bajaj showrooms aren't even taking booking of 250F because of abysmal sales.

So only legend that has been killed is that of 250F that too before it even started by their very own 220F.

Many of us might remember Stuntmania? Pulsars and specially 220F was so iconic.

As other members have pointed out Karizma had to be shut down due to Hero itself and no one else, specially not the NS. The ZMR design wasn't something that people wanted at that time.

I think what happened with the transition from R to ZMR kind of happened for Bajaj while transitioning from 220F to 250F. If they would have just plonked all the technical upgrades in the 220F over the 250's polarising style they would have sold more bikes.

[professortarzan]

Originally Posted by Sam800

My jaw was hanging below my knees in utter shock and surprise..!!

Yes, THIS!! This best describes the reaction of me and another friend who tried starting it. We were prepared for an uphill task that day, but the biggest trouble we had was to wash the dirt off our hands.