[aneesh2M]

Hi everyone, creating this new thread to discuss a rather unique new topic on the recent biking trend. This is about current new entrants in the biking scene in India.

Harley-Davidson and Triumph recently launched new entry-level machines for India. If these machines are good enough in terms of quality and service is something to be explored yet and not the topic here. But what comes to my mind is would these machines have the same brand image and snob value as their bigger counterpart?

Will these budget-friendly machines justify their brand value or Will they ruin the brand value they currently have in India?

Harley-Davidson and Triumph, both have a brand image of big and premium bikes in India. The brand is associated with its exclusivity as everyone cannot afford to own one easily in India. When these brand open their doors for smaller and somewhat affordable bikes will the image of the brand retain the snob value?

As a 400cc 3Lakh HD stand next to 1200cc 25Lakh HD what will be the image of the brand? Will these brands lose customers from the big bike community as the brand value would not be the same?

Will the groups with all the big bikes happily accept the smaller bikes to ride along (this is especially for HD/HOG groups as they are more exclusive than other brands when the groups come into the picture)?

Personally, I feel It will dilute the snob or oomph factor to some extent for these brands. This brings me to the thought that will an owner of Harley-Davidson or a Triumph feel HOG or Tri..oomph enough once smaller bikes start showing up on roads?

[raptor_diwan]

It's a bit tricky. When they bring in more affordable options, they've got to be careful. If those cheaper models don't match up to the quality, performance, and style people expect from the brand, it could water down their reputation. So, they've got to make sure even the entry-level bikes keep up the brand's identity and quality.

Also, when they start reaching a wider range of customers, it might change how exclusive people feel the brand is.

Harley-Davidson and Triumph have to find the right balance. They want to grow their customer base, but they don't want to lose that premium image they've built. It's like a juggling act – they need smart marketing, good communication, and the right positioning of these smaller bikes to fit with what people already know about the brand.

How well they handle this change will decide if these smaller bikes make the brand look better or if they end up hurting the brand's overall reputation.

[Sebring]

I feel its a great move. Indians want VFM products, and once you give it to them they are most certainly going to upgrade to higher CC in the next few years. This will keep them in the fold. Likes of Honda, Kawasaki etc serve the entire spectrum of bikes, so there is no reason why Triumph or HD cannot do the same. In fact HD is in a lot of trouble and will shut down if this budget strategy doesn't work. Regarding acceptability by HOGs, who cares, really!

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by Sebring

I feel its a great move. In fact HD is in a lot of trouble and will shut down if this budget strategy doesn't work. Regarding acceptability by HOGs, who cares, really!

Absolutely true and I fully agree.
More than the acceptability from A particular group or community, it's more relevant whether these products will be accepted by the Indian (and the global) market. HD infact is trying to find a foothold in India with this product.

As far as Oomph factor is concerned, brands like Honda and Kawasaki have collaborated earlier also and rolled out products like Kawasaki Bajaj KB100, Hero Honda Splendor etc. These coexist with the Ninja H2 and Goldwing respectively and cater for different segments, never bothering to look across the other's fence.

And true biking brotherhood is never about what model or make you ride. Your mannerisms atop the machine makes you stand out, not what you are atop.

[neith]

The G/GS310 examples arrived in a similar fashion, and imo, they didn't impact the BMW brand value or the community.

As long as they maintain the brand's values, the existence of a few entry-level products within an extensive catalog of premium offerings should not diminish the brand's integrity.

I believe this will follow a similar trajectory.

[AtheK]

HOG, TOG or whatever they call themselves is just overrated in this era. They had a charm when you did not have internet and whatsapp groups. Now every bike, forget brands, has its own groups in all the cities which are easier to join. Ride with like minded people or people who do not differentiate others based on bikes they ride, if you are a part of any such group you are better off walking away from it.

Regarding snob value dilution, again the above implies, if some one feels bad that the brands have launched cheaper motorcycles its there problem and not brand problem. Everyone is in business to make money, so I welcome the new two entry level bikes. While manufacturers have done their bit, onus is now on the riders of this bike also, while these bikes will be able to stretch themselves to give you a decent enough top speed, some one riding these bikes need to realise that you can not hold on to such speeds for long and not a good idea to strain the engines for long.

The next thing also the riders will need to understand is the service experience, it will no doubt take a bit of time with the volumes coming in, so give time to manufacturers to scale up and keep expectations in check. Keerthi in bangalore is already notorious for bad service, not sure how they will handle such a rush and the waiting part for spares will be long. I see a lot of click bait videos popping up on youtube soon, stay clear of them and let your personal experience drive your ownership experience, always a good thing to talk nicely to people at service center to get job done efficiently rather then being rude and work together with them for a pleasant ownership experience.

Wishing the new buyers of these beautiful machines a very happy and safe riding.

[SoumenD]

Similar doubts popped up when BMW-TVS joint venture churned out 310 twins. I doubt it diluted the snob value at all. But then they stayed relatively exclusive. Personally I just drool over the 310GS whenever I see one.

Again honda sells everything from Activa to a Goldwing. Don’t see any brand dilution there.

Similarly don’t think there will be any change in HD/Triumph brand value.

[GTO]

As long as the products deliver and are competent, no, they won't negatively affect the brand. The Triumph, especially, is damn good (based on posts I've read).

Mercedes might be selling the small CLA, but the S-Class remains the S-Class. Taxi owners still buy the Innova Crysta, while the rich happily take the Camry home.

Of course, in some product segments, this doesn't work. Example = where your brand is the "sole" differentiating factor. Omega cannot sell a Rs. 20,000 watch and then expect people to pay 5-lakhs for one. Gucci cannot sell a 10,000-rupee handbag, then expect the elite to shell out 1.5 lakhs for one. But in these product classes, customers are driven by the brand prestige + brand image over & above anything else.

In cars & motorcycles, there is a lot more to the product than just the brand (engineering, space, features, comfort, safety, engine, gearbox etc.).

[SmartCat]

Triumph and Harley Davidson have a strong brand value outside India, because they are either market leaders in a particular country or sales leaders in certain sub-categories of bikes.

It means when Triump & HD introduce 400 & X440 model in US/Europe, it will start selling in largish numbers right away. Hypothetically, if Bajaj & Hero setup dealerships all over US/Europe & brand it as Bajaj/Hero, they will not be able to sell 400/X440. In the former, sales of 400/X440 are powered by the brand value. In the latter example, these exact same models will not sell because of lack of brand value.

Now, brand value does not come just from heritage (past glory), but also from current sales or marketshare. Coming to India, this is the sales scene:





Sure, bikers in India recognize the brands Triumph/HD - but it doesn't mean these brands have a large "value" in India. So for these two brands, they are starting from a clean slate.

Brand Recognition is NOT equal to Brand Value.

[inline4]

A brand can remain a brand only if they remain in business. H-D and Triumph and pretty much all the other Marquee brands cannot remain in business in India by selling their large capacity motorcycles alone. the whole size of the market above 1000 cc is barely a 1000 units combined or thereabout.

So for all the people who are worried about dilution of the brand, the bigger question is would you rather want a motorcycle brand that cannot be sold and serviced in India or want brands that have a renewed interest in the Indian market because the smaller bikes brings in the numbers to keep the dealer and the parent company motivated?

I think the answer is pretty clear. Also H-D and Triumph are the last to move into this space if you discount Ducati who I wont be surprised will end up making a similar move eventually.

Smaller capacity motorcycles also are a feeder source for getting a larger audience into the sport of motorcycling. Eventually even if a small percentage of these riders upgrade to larger motorcycles, it will reinvigorate the entire eco system. This means better aftersales shops open. Better merch shops. India Bike Week and other such festivals will start to thrive.

Its just good for everyone.

If one is still not convinced, then one needs to question the whole philosophy if wanting to be a biker. A motorcycle is the quintessential embodiment of freedom.

To make it a tool for only the elite is when irony dies a thousand deaths.

[inwester]

Originally Posted by Sebring

I feel its a great move. Indians want VFM products, and once you give it to them they are most certainly going to upgrade to higher CC in the next few years. This will keep them in the fold.

Originally Posted by aviator1101

HD infact is trying to find a foothold in India with this product.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It means when Triump & HD introduce 400 & X440 model in US/Europe, it will start selling in largish numbers right away.

Totally agree with these statements.

If you look at the last available financial reports from these companies, you can see they clearly struggle in India with their current lineup. in 2022, Harley sold less than 400 bikes in India and Triumph a little over 1000. Compare this to Royal Enfield selling around 735,000 bikes in India. Remember, 10 years ago, RE only sold 10,000 bikes a month. So there is a path to growth if things go right.

Their average bike prices just using a simple calculation of revenue/number of bikes sold is around 15-20 lakhs. Add taxes and duties on top of that in India you can see why they sell only a handful of bikes.

With a strategy concentrating in the 300-650 cc range, introducing new products with the strong local partnerships they have, I see a path to 1,000 crore business in a few years (used some assumptions in my back of the napkin model).

Now will it dilute brand value? I don't think so. In this scenario, brand existence is more important than brand value. Every company has realized that consumers need an entry into their product line up, whether its a an iPhone SE, or Samsung A Series, or BMW X1 or Mercedes A class.

India is the biggest two-wheeler market in the world and arguably the only large (albeit developing) economy that has a real promise to keep growing for the next few decades. As a manufacturer, I would want a piece of that action.

I say bring it on Harley (Hero) and Triumph (Bajaj).

[aargee]

Triumph & Harley never learned from History!

Hyundai's first car in America was a sub compact car; Japan's first motorcycle in America was less than 500cc where Harley's dominated in 1000cc; infact Japan's first lot of cars in US was compact segment.

Talking about India, even the big 4 Japanese motorcycles started with humble 100cc way back in 1984 & graduated to 650 in Honda, successfully expanded their segment by Kawasaki, struggling still to expand with Yamaha & half way in between by Suzuki.

Had Triumph & Harley learnt the history well, they would've tested our market with smaller capacity motors & then ventured into higher CC segment. But again, nothing wrong to have started with higher CC, what Harley did was abandoning {absconding} leaving many enthusiasts in question. In that aspect Triumph is slightly better not to leave the market but to have learned the lesson a little late.

PS - Couldn't help thinking about KTM venturing into India with humble 200, 125 & 390cc despite having a big fan base for their 790cc segment!!

[lazy]

My two cents:

Cent 1 - Brand value makes sense if the Brand itself survives - without these ~400 cc bikes, both these firms will fade away.
Globally younger customers aren't to big on buying fossil fuel vehicles, which means current market is getting smaller, which means new customer segments got to be pursued, which means these ~400 cc bikes are a survival play here.

Cent 2 - Brand snobbery is increasingly a seen as a low-class mindset (albeit a high-money one), at least amongst the urban, educated, salaried, progressive folks.
Such people are very accepting of stuff/products that cost less but are high on experience. As long as one's friends/group/gang are such folks, who cares about the brand. You can join their rides on any bike, and they'll love you and welcome you for joining !!

cheers
lazy