[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I am astounded that many of the forum members don't even understand that a two-wheeler is an inherently unstable vehicle which can become hazard for everyone else on the road. And when this happens where everyone is at high speed - we are just awaiting a huge tragedy on the roads.

By that logic, 4 wheelers are mass murder machines. As there is no direct feel of environment, it is easy to doze off, swerve and cause accidents. As these are inherently stable, driver feels at liberty to change lanes at will, brake hard and cause pile ups.

The fact is - All vehicles are safe in the hand of responsible drivers. Nothing is safe in hand of irresponsible driver.

Many developed countries allow motorcycles on expressways, why can't we?

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

Many developed countries allow motorcycles on expressways, why can't we?

I completely agree with your statement, except for the last one (quoted above)

It cannot be an apples to apples comparison, since the 2 wheeler density is much higher, road discipline much lower and high power motorcycle specific licencing completely non existent.

In addition, there is much more policing in other countries, and the road conditions too, on average are better.

I support large capacity motorcyles on expressways, but this cannot be the argument used to further the cause.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I am sorry whatever be your vehicle and your capabilities, you cannot outdo the physics.

Originally Posted by ajay0612

By that logic, 4 wheelers are mass murder machines. As there is no direct feel of environment, it is easy to doze off, swerve and cause accidents. As these are inherently stable, driver feels at liberty to change lanes at will, brake hard and cause pile ups.

I don't see how my logic about physics of instability of two wheeler machine is equivalent to a drunk or sleepy driver driving a four wheeler and becoming a road hazard.

Perhaps you could explain further how two wheelers are equally, if not more, stable than four wheelers.

[5hank3r]

There are a lot of cross voting due to the negative phrasing of the poll question; rendering the numbers unusable.

[Samarth 619]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I don't see how my logic about physics of instability of two wheeler machine is equivalent to a drunk or sleepy driver driving a four wheeler and becoming a road hazard.
Perhaps you could explain further how two wheelers are equally, if not more, stable than four wheelers.

Riding stability normally depends on wheelbase of the vehicle, but the sense in which you're referring to, is related to balance, and is tested after an impact only, which is rare.
By your logic an airplane is the most unsafe vehicle, which is clearly not the case.

Your inference of motorcycles causing safety issues (in your first post) due to its 'instability' is not accurate, as normally a motorcycle doesn't fall randomly. It crashes on impact.

An impact is scientifically related to the space that vehicles occupy, among other factors. You see, motorcycles occupy a whole lot lesser space than other vehicles, in relation to passengers. So, unintentionally they contribute to safety.

Less space occupied is scientifically always more safer, in any particular setting, assuming other things being the same. Let's talk figures:

A typical bus, around (13x4m) 52 metres (squared) can carry anywhere above 44 passengers. (Space per person:- 0.85 metres^2)
A motorcycle (Hero Splendor+) can seat 2 people and occupy around 1.44 metres^2 space on the road. (Space per person:- 0.72 metres^2)

A typical car, a small one, say Renault Kwid occupies 5.89.. (rounded off to 6) meters square, on the road, and seats 4 people. (Space per person:- 1.5 meters+)
Allow me to remind you, you drive a much larger car than a Kwid 800cc, and often with lesser people than 4, which makes the figure worse.. isn't it?


This makes a car the most space-occupying passenger vehicle on the road, which does result in more crowded roads. Rest you can deduce.

And, talk of stability, even cars turn turtle, when ridden irresponsibly.. Most of your commuter cars have plushy suspensions and when steered hard left to right, they can get caught in a sprung 2 wheeled ride and can lift up from one side.
Remember that Scorpio's viral video, which was driven in a wedding convey? It didn't crash into anything, right?:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Ufz8QbtGo

Obviously, in real life lot many more variables of safety exist. But this is one angle. You may feel the world is safer with more & more cars, but its just a psychological thing, its not scientific.

Originally Posted by 5hank3r

There are a lot of cross voting due to the negative phrasing of the poll question; rendering the numbers unusable.

I totally agree. This was the first thing I felt. It should be "allowed" instead of "banned".
At least a few may have misunderstood the question.

[krishsreedharan]

IMO, I expect that if the Government decides to include 2 wheelers into the net of Tolls to use highways, that would reduce the number of two wheelers to a great extent. I do know its a wild dream, but if this can work on NICE road in Bangalore, I dont see any reason why other access controlled expressways cannot adopt this.

I for one would gladly get a FasTAG for my K1600 and pay the toll to be able to ride on decent roads.

[ebonho]

I vote YES. Strongly

Also I believe the poll premise and criteria themselves are debatable, if not outright erroneous.

Cubic capacity can be hugely variant in terms of performance in Indian bikes. I will not name the obvious large selling brand here, but their 500 cc machines would be wheezing above 120 kmph.

Then you have many high performance sub 400 cc bikes. That easily do speeds in excess of what most cars do on our highways. And reach there very very quick. Again, for most cars.

And they too are in very large numbers. And have gained a reputation as hooligan bikes. Oftentimes, a reputation their particular ilk of riders has rightfully earned them. Or wrongfully, however you may choose to see it.

So clogging up these high speed roads with both above classes is a recipe for disaster.

You need a measure to thin out the herd. Either a motorcycle purchase price ceiling.

Or a toll, with perfectly decent non toll alternatives also present.

Wishful thinking maybe, but this thread is anyways for discussion only. Its not like we are going to be making or even impacting policy.

Cheers, Doc

[snappysam]

I vote YES

2 wheelers will be a disaster on our Expressways.
I am shooting myself in my foot here as I do enjoy reaching the permissible speed limits on my Duke 390 on our notorious Kerala Highways, which is now capped at 60 KMPH. And I would love to have a blast at 120 KMPH if allowed. However a majority of our bikers are not mature while on roads, my opinion includes Bikers on expensive, High Capacity bikes too. That is the harsh fact. Solution would be to educate all bikers on riding discipline as also enforce harsh penalties to those that err. We as a nation, are still in infancy when it comes to driving etiquette and following rules.

[DrvSafe]

Related news

“NHAI prohibits cycles, two and three-wheelers movement on 3 National Highways”

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-9110806/lite/

[Vasuki]

Originally Posted by DrvSafe

Related news

“NHAI prohibits cycles, two and three-wheelers movement on 3 National Highways”

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-9110806/lite/

This trend is catching on, there is a strong rumour of all together banning two-wheelers from the section of NH-66 running in Kerala,about 600 km, which would be a six-lane highway in 3 years time.

Mind you this is not an expressway.

The general talk is that two-wheelers should use the service lane. Just imagine after paying upwards of 21% as road tax(all bikes above ₹2 lakhs come under this bracket), we will be just able to use the service lane. For eg. A superbike worth ₹10 Lakhs pays around ₹2.1 lakhs as tax in Kerala and ends up using only the service lane for the commute.

Just imagine the frustration of Goldwing/CVO/K1600/Pikespeak/V4S users who would be paying road tax varying from ₹5 to ₹8 lakhs on their bike.

[doga]

I already written on this thread, but a new train of thought compelled me to come back.
I was stuck in congestion the other day in the car watching bikes filtering and zipping past and cursing my luck and then I thought what if we ban cars in the city completely. We ban bikes from highways due to safety concerns then why not ban cars in the city (at least the very busy areas) because of congestion? This'd improve traffic flow and almost all car users would have a motorcycle (whereas the reverse is not true) so it's not really unfair also.
This'd improve air quality also as bikes emissions are far lesser.

[FLYBOYSID]

Originally Posted by doga

I already written on this thread, but a new train of thought compelled me to come back.
I was stuck in congestion the other day in the car watching bikes filtering and zipping past and cursing my luck and then I thought what if we ban cars in the city completely. We ban bikes from highways due to safety concerns then why not ban cars in the city (at least the very busy areas) because of congestion? This'd improve traffic flow and almost all car users would have a motorcycle (whereas the reverse is not true) so it's not really unfair also.
This'd improve air quality also as bikes emissions are far lesser.

No offence sir, but the thought process seems way off the mark. Cars can be looked at as a safer travel alternative at all places be it city or highway. Congestion and pollution can be reduced significantly if people just stick to traffic norms. Bikers filtering through congested roads only adds to the congestion.‘Pehle mai’ does not really help. Try and give way and see how easy it gets for everyone.

[doga]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYSID

No offence sir, but the thought process seems way off the mark. Cars can be looked at as a safer travel alternative at all places be it city or highway. Congestion and pollution can be reduced significantly if people just stick to traffic norms. Bikers filtering through congested roads only adds to the congestion.‘Pehle mai’ does not really help. Try and give way and see how easy it gets for everyone.

None taken sir! However, my argument was not from an safety equivalence point of view. Cars are always going to be safer but my point was not that. My point was on the prospect of banning a mode of travel for whatever purpose - reducing congestion is one very plausible reason. Some cities in the world are already doing it like the ULEZ ban in London which initially no 5 year car could meet but most 125 cc bikes could easily!
Your argument around bikers filtering and creating congestion doesn't hold. Actually congestion is same as car travel. There are studies around the world which clearly shows bikes and especially filtering bikes reduce congestion. When you sit on road seeing all these bikers zipping buy you think they are bocking you. No! They are actually helping you- imagine all these guys out on a car- you wouldn't be able to move. Assuming everyone is strictly following traffic rules then the same number of bikes would always occupy far less road real estate than the same number of cars for a given average number of passenger per vehicle. That'd be pretty much be the same anyway given my observation of most cars ferrying one person anyway in peak times. And I am not even considering parking infra- most 3 lane roads in Navi Mumbai are now 2 lanes(and sometimes one!) due to cars always parked on the road.
So given this, a city planner can argue that inner city/metro roads should be bike and public transport only. Car owners are free to use their bikes.
Of course, that's never going to happen even if it's inherently less unfair-given car owners would have a 2 wheeler 9 out of 10 times- than banning a large section of people from some of the nicest roads just so these big burly cars can cruise at speed burning far more hydrocarbons than an average motorcycle. And this is not just highways, some of the inner-city nodal roads like the eastern freeway in Mumbai and now the Atal setu as well are now car only. How is this justified?

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYSID

No offence sir, but the thought process seems way off the mark. Cars can be looked at as a safer travel alternative at all places be it city or highway.

I disagree respectfully. I am a proud biker and a keen driver as well. I have noticed that my tendency to overspeed is more in a car (where it’s easy to get carried away unknowingly) rather than on a bike where I am much more aware of my speeds/surroundings/blind spots and limitations.

If a few ill mannered and unschooled people have to be taken as a sample of a community (as four wheeler drivers here are generalising bikers), then, all car owners should be portrayed as entitled, brash, insensitive to the environment and what not which is obviously not the case. So, why this step motherly perception of bikers? I’m completely in favour of the above proposal of banning cars from the cbd/cities as the reason given makes perfect sense to me.

The car owner in me would obviously want to downplay the two wheelers’ logic. Considering neither is fair to the other, makes me wonder why are we so keen on banning this and banning that and do not focus on first principles of educating and tightening the license norms if we were so truly concerned about safety.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYSID

No offence sir, but the thought process seems way off the mark. Cars can be looked at as a safer travel alternative at all places be it city or highway. Congestion and pollution can be reduced significantly if people just stick to traffic norms. Bikers filtering through congested roads only adds to the congestion.‘Pehle mai’ does not really help. Try and give way and see how easy it gets for everyone.

An SUV takes the road space of 6 bikes. 6 riders, minimum. And most of them have a single occupant, the driver, in them. Do the math. On the congestion. On the fuel that we as a nation spend precious foreign currency reserves now (we are a long long way from paying for crude in rupees). And the pollution per human that is put into the air of our choking cities. Doga makes a good point. One that has already been implemented for years in London.

Cheers, Doc