[iron.head]

Originally Posted by lazyrev

As time goes on and a product has been improved constantly without any major change, the cost of production will reduce, not increase. Bajaj has achieve huge economies of scale here with high domestic and export demand.

There is some partial additional cost due to new sensors and for emissions compliance but it is clear that KTM has easily milked all the demand in the sub 500cc performance range for many years now. My feeling is that they want to move back into the premium segment now, (where Triumph is coming from ironically) and are ok with losing the sub 3L customer base.

All bikes abroad are 2x the price of India, even the RE hunter. It is market positioning, not quality or performance that dictates that.

Engine "characteristics" are very much a personal preference kind of thing. I have ridden the ADVx from KTM after I rode the speed 400 and the latter wins for me hands down. I couldnt tolerate the vibes on the KTM at low revs and it's constant need to be pushed to high revs while I am in traffic.

People like 500 cc slow bikes and people love 300 cc fast bikes. Doesn't mean one is better than the other. There is no reason to believe the 400cc from Triumph will die just from this extrapolation exercise.

Not interested in a debate but here is my response:

Reasons for higher/increasing price of the 390 KTMs including feature additions over the years:
(differences vs Speed 400 and incremental upgrades)

>>Cornering ABS
>>Lean sensitive traction control (Bosch will very well charge separately for these features, it's not just the HW but the features/technology/SW).
>>Slipper Clutch
>>Ride by wire
>>Several engine improvements over the years(read media reports, yes some add up to the manufacturing cost)
>>WP suspension
>>Quickshifter
>>Adjustable levers
>>Higher spec brakes
>>Engine: forged pistons, nikasil coated cylinder, balancer shaft, etc.

Bajaj was hard-pressed (in my understanding) to bring down the price of the 390 Adventure and got rid of the IMU and a few other features in the Adventure X and that in itself brought down the price significantly. This proves that some of those features do not come cheap (of course there must be a small premium too).

By engine characteristics, I referred to the design/metallurgical characteristics. The same 390 engine is also on the RC390 and that is a track focused motorcycle which demands a lot more stress tolerance/higher spec construction.

Nobody said that one is a better motorcycle over the other in terms of categorization. The comparison is of the longevity/quality between the two motorcycles.

Ultimately, nobody can deny that what you pay is what you get. Bajaj set up the production in India specifically to bring the price down and owns a major stake in KTM, so it must not be that KTM is holding Bajaj to a ransom/high royalty per unit sale. In fact, Bajaj brought down the production prices for KTM and must be in a position to pass on the same benefit to the Indian consumers.

Originally Posted by Grr7

If price and quality had such a strong correlation, then I dont think humble Corolla would have been so bullet proof while its european cousins (Skoda et al) be such moody troublesome cars.

Yes, Triumph Speed 400 is priced very lucratively. But that is because it needs to break into a segment which is exclusively ruled by RE till now.

However, just because RE or KTM have been milking the cash cow customers for costly hyped products or non existing competition, doesnt mean that SPEED 400 will break into 2 parts when it reaches 50000 km.

Have already shared my thoughts above but adding some more:

First of all, Corolla is not a low price car. In North America, VW Passat is considered one of the most reliable cars. So reliability is also market dependent (that includes fuel, driving conditions, etc).

KTM does not have big numbers in India yet and IMHO they are still in the market penetration mode. What you have said is true for RE though and RE too has been working hard on improving the product quality in the last 2-3 years.

Nobody said that the Speed 400 will break into 2 parts but it's also true that most RE UCE engines start consuming oil around the 25000-30000 KM mark and soon after that is the time for an engine overhaul. Owners not noticing/getting the engine overhauled is another matter.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by Grr7

Triumph Speed 400 is priced very lucratively. But that is because it needs to break into a segment which is exclusively ruled by RE till now.

True. Moreover, it's a prediction by many that Speed 400 and (soon to be launched) Scrambler 400x are just the stepping stones.

Triumph Bajaj are establishing an entire network of almost 100 outlets across the country by the year end (ambitious timelines though), streamlining the sales & service and once the entire process is well established, they are going to bring in more products based on this platform. Maybe a cruiser or even a Tiger 400

Exciting times ahead in this segment for sure.

[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

Maybe a cruiser or even a Tiger 400

Shumi seems convinced a Tiger 400 (a Tiger Cub, if I may) is coming no later than 2025.

[lazyrev]

I saw a couple of youtube shorts from people in Hyderabad who seem to have gotten their bikes delivered but I also noticed that they dont have registration numbers on them. Seems to be a bit hush hush too.

When I checked with the Pune dealer last week, they were waiting for final RTO approvals and had a lot of at least 100 bikes ready to go at the time. I'm expecting mine to be delivered in end August (have put down 25k) as I am ~450 or so in the line and they were estimating 400 bikes this month.

Has anyone else asked or followed up about deliveries in Pune or other cities? I am finding it hard to contain my excitement.

[davelok]

Originally Posted by lazyrev

Has anyone else asked or followed up about deliveries in Pune or other cities? I am finding it hard to contain my excitement.

When I went for a test ride to Riya Triumph (Ahmedabad) last Saturday, they told me they had started delivering bikes to the first few brave ones.

They were expecting about 40 bikes in the first lot. I was #34 in line and could have received mine by next week, but I did not want to decide immediately.

I've now opted to get the bike in September 1st week.

[antz.bin]

Originally Posted by iron.head

Reasons for higher/increasing price of the 390 KTMs including feature additions over the years:
(differences vs Speed 400 and incremental upgrades)

>>Cornering ABS
>>Lean sensitive traction control (Bosch will very well charge separately for these features, it's not just the HW but the features/technology/SW).
>>Slipper Clutch
>>Ride by wire
>>Several engine improvements over the years(read media reports, yes some add up to the manufacturing cost)
>>WP suspension
>>Quickshifter
>>Adjustable levers
>>Higher spec brakes
>>Engine: forged pistons, nikasil coated cylinder, balancer shaft, etc.

I feel like a spec sheet warrior but this is for the benefit of everyone.

These are present on RC390 and Adventure 390 (V and SW) but not on Duke 390. Those are more expensive motorcycles than even the Duke.

#1 Cornering ABS
#2 Lean sensitive traction control (Bosch will very well charge separately for these features, it's not just the HW but the features/technology/SW).

These are present on Speed 400 and Duke 390 both.

#3 Slipper Clutch
#4 Ride by wire

These are definite advantages of Duke 390 but with some caveats.

#5 Several engine improvements over the years(read media reports, yes some add up to the manufacturing cost)
#6 WP suspension
#7 Quickshifter
#8 Adjustable levers
#9 Higher spec brakes

And you forgot:
Colour TFT screen
Bluetooth connectivity

Very little is known about the new 398cc engine. We can't know if these are present on the Speed 400 as well.

#10 Engine: forged pistons, nikasil coated cylinder, balancer shaft, etc.

The Speed by comparison gets:

Better at slower speeds than the 373cc Duke
Better perceived quality
10% better fuel economy
H-Rated tyres
Better fit and finish
Longer service interval (in line with the rest of the motorcycles of the brand)

After test riding both, regardless of specs, I can say both of them have their merits and demerits. Both have their own target audience as well.

The KTM 390s (especially the RC) really feel like something that an experienced rider could upgrade to while the Speed 400 is so easy to extract performance out of that someone with 2 months of riding experience on a 100cc commuter bike could start to have fun with it.

The KTM 390s are top of the line products of their brand while the Speed is the bike which is giving the customers a taste of the ownership experience of bigger Triumph bikes without them having to spend 6 figures on it. Both have their space in the market, both have a target audience that they have targeted.

At the time that the Speed was unveiled, I lusted after the KTMs and expected the Speed to give me a similar experience to the Duke 390. It did not. It is better in some practical aspects, worse in some other fun related aspects.
After I put down my deposit on the Speed 400, I decided to test ride everything else in the market and in all those test rides I have done, I ended up loving the RE Continental GT 650 the most. A bike I didn't even remember existed and never gave a second thought. But that is just me, you could have a different experience, so give everything a test ride to know what resonates with you. No spec sheet can give you the actual experience of what riding that motorcycle feels like. Also, you don't need to explain yourself to anyone else on matters of what you loved, not even to yourself.

I am still undecided and could still eventually go for the Speed 400 because it is the more practical buy and I still can't see myself getting a Royal Enfield due to my personal biases. But that is the conclusion I have come to, for now. 1 month down the line, I could be riding something not even mentioned in this post so that is how the heart works, isn't it?

[Funny]

A review by a mature duo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOaMcOS-WlA

Caution: Has some expletives, NSFW.

[roamer]

Was the offer period for first 10K customers restricted to 15th August? I was travelling for work and couldn't take the TR. Now planning to go to Shaman Andheri this weekend.

[vzvish91]

A connection of mine shared something interesting about Speed 400.

If you check Triumph India website & any of India based Speed 400 review content, you will observe that the speedo-console looks different for India based Speed 400 and other(international) markets!

Source:
https://www.triumphmotorcycles.in/mo...ide/technology
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attac...eed_400_03.jpg <https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorbikes/267998-triumph-speed-400-review.html#post5585140>

I get the MPH vs KMPH difference, but I am curious as to why Triumph/Bajaj would have opted for different needle and silver garnish casing around the speedo-console?

[Rajeevraj]

So a person from Keerthi Triumph called me in the morning asking to come for test ride. I said I already had done a ride (it was from Khivraj). Then late afternoon, the same person calls again asking to come for test ride.

I repeated the same thing and then asked about deliveries. His response was, bikes are available, if you make payment now, you can get it delivered in 10 days. Did not sound like they are following a proper booking sequence.

Anyways, since I am undecided, said I will get back later.

[lazyrev]

Originally Posted by Funny

A review by a mature duo:
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=nOaMcOS-WlA

Caution: Has some expletives, NSFW.

Absolutely loved this video. My favourite review so far. Such measured and reasonable takes, with some nice carmaderie and humour baked in. They didnt throw numbers here and there or nitpick too much.

Especially liked what they said about the cruising speed being around 100-120 with no issues and how that is pretty much the best you can do on Indian roads anyway.

[m8002?]

I went to Keerthi last Saturday and it was more crowded than a PDS ration shop. (The only time I saw a longer queue was when the liquor shops opened after Covid )There was a long queue of folks waiting for the test ride. I have already booked it and am in the first 10K bookings.

The bike looks like any other 150-250 cc bike and just blends in with them. Asked the SA is there is a priority test ride for those who already booked and he said no.

They called me yesterday asking about fixing a slot for the test drive since I am in the 10K bookings. I have booked a slot at 10:30 this Sat and the guy said he will try to accommodate me as much as possible. Lets see.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by m8002?

The bike looks like any other 150-250 cc bike and just blends in with them.

Though most of us would want our rides to stand out in a crowd, this quality of merging into the surroundings is actually a blessing in disguise.

Nobody will fiddle with your bike unnecessarily.

I know people who have suffered heavy losses on their Tigers and Bonnevilles after leaving them unattended in a parking lot.

[Kalash_6324]

Originally Posted by SAS

Any idea how comfortable the scrambler will be for a 5' 6 person? Im that height and would prefer the Scrambler to the Speed. I know its not launched as yet, but some guidance from others on the forum will help me make an informed decision. I would like the scrambler, the only doubt in my head would be seat height. Else will go for the Speed

Hey there!
I'm 5'6" myself and have ridden the Himalyan (800mm), KTM 390 ADV (855mm) Vstrom 250 SX (835mm) and use a Classic 350 on a daily basis (800mm).

Riding tall bikes is a skill that you can develop over time. You don't need to flatfoot a bike and the very first habit you should let go is waddling. There are a ton of techniques that can help you manage the height and weight of these bikes, but it'll take some time. So don't let the spec sheet be a barrier. Experience the product and your skill level will tell you if you're ready for it. There's no harm in accepting your skill limitation either, because it comes down to our safety and hard earned money.
Slowly graduate up to these tall, heavy and other high capacity bikes.
Coming to the Scrambler, it's got a slightly broader seat, but the height should compress by a few millimetres when you sit and you should be able to confidently flatfoot one side. Also the kerb weight isn't too high, so that should work in your favour too.
But it'll finally come down to your experience and confidence. I'll say it again, don't let that number be a mental barrier - because that's all it can really be.

[gkrishn]

Taking about the seat, guess one should be able to fit the scrambler seat on to speed.

The fitting fixture should be identical between these 2 models. scrambler seat definitely looks more comfortable.