[pratik_terni]

Off-topic:
To be honest, I wanted to buy a Duke 390 but settled for a CBR, due the issues reported then.
And now we are back to square one

Originally Posted by rahul4321

Hi Pratik, I have been using the Duke 390 for over 4 years now and I can confirm that you are right that the motorcycle is extremely unhappy at higher gears at low speeds.
...
If you want something hardcore - look no further than the Duke. If you want something middle of the road, I guess the Speed 400 is the one for you.

Hi Rahul, your response crisply explains what one should expect from a KTM.
The duke would be happier and prefers to be on the highway and manageable in the city.
The Speed 400 shines in the city but the general opinion suggest it's not meant for the highway.

I don't mind the "middle of the road" product and I was impressed with the overall test ride experience in the city. It's just that my overthinking keeps kicking in. What I can't get past is that Speed 400 is a 40 bhp bike primarily for the city and will struggle on the highways (read decent cruising speeds without vibrations).

Originally Posted by iron.head

If I might add my 2 cents, I'll say that KTM/Bajaj spent quite a while to improvise the 390 engine and has been perfected over the years.
...
I truly believe in when they say that you get what you pay for. My bet would always be on the KTM as I would hate to have engine repairs anytime earlier than 60,000 or 100,000 kms.

Hi @iron.head, I am sure this is in everyone's mind, and i truly hope that the bike does not throw some serious issues at its owners.
I need to think long and hard before deciding between the 2 bikes, to avoid buyer's remorse later.

Originally Posted by gtx2

Will Speed 400 bother the rider on longer rides and will the vibrations/heat eventually start to be an issue is a question which will only get answered when ownership reviews start to come in.

Exactly!!
But in my case, since I booked early, I can get the bike by August end if I make the full payment now. And if I choose to cancel my booking and wait, then the wait would be for almost 4 months in case I plan to buy a Speed 400.

For now, I have to requested Triumph to hold my booking since I will be out of town for a few days. I will take this up once I am back in September and they have agreed.

[davelok]

Originally Posted by davelok

On road cost for the first 10,000 is Rs. 265,xxx in Ahmedabad. This includes the standard engine guard, radiator grille, bar end mirrors, grab rail, saree guard, and plastic engine/sump guard.

I took the plunge! Paid the first Rs. 50,000 with the rest to follow in installments. Final price will be Rs. 2,67,090 less Rs. 2,000 I paid for the pre-booking.

The bike was comfortable enough to ride around the city, and my highway trips will be very modest. Pillion space wasn't too bad either. So I can consider keeping it till I'm too old for it. I'll probably lug the engine, so apologies to all performance aficionados in advance.

I'll probably add the luggage rack as accessory (Rs. 2,670/-, I think) at the time of delivery so that I can tie a tripod to it, or just to help my wife feel safer when riding pillion. I will also go for some kind of coating, as I don't want the glossy paint to be scratched to dullness by the car cleaner guy.

[DudeWithaFiat]

Originally Posted by SAS

Any idea how comfortable the scrambler will be for a 5' 6 person? Im that height and would prefer the Scrambler to the Speed.

You should be fine and be able to be on the ball of your feet when you put both feet down, assuming you have a proportionate inseam length.

Originally Posted by shailinder

Since 400X has not yet launched, I will suggest a test ride KTM 390 or 250 ADV "V" variant. It will give you a perspective of seat height. However, both bikes are in different leagues or must be in different leagues.

And, for suspension setup, you can test-ride BMW G310GS. It has a similar seat height of ~835mm. BMW has a soft suspension, whereas KTM ADVs are stiff.

The seat width matters too. Is the Scrambler's seat as wide as the GS310? I am a little over 5'5" and I was tip-toeing on the GS when putting down both the feet together.

Originally Posted by snappysam

He said that the seat height was 835mm which is 5mm more than the Duke 390(my bike), which I find to be a bit taller than optimum. So if he is correct, you will not be able to plant both your feet on the ground while being seated. Scrambler arrives in showrooms in october is the SA's reckoning. Speed 400 will be perfect, height wise, for both of you.

Isn't the Duke 390's seat height 855mm? Unless its the V variant.

[iron.head]

Consider as speculative

I remember reading an article (back in time, when the first KTM was to be launched in India/built at Bajaj) which described how KTM "taught" Bajaj the importance of using high quality parts and not cutting corners.

In another recent article that narrated an interview with the KTM CEO regarding the partnership with Bajaj, following is that I gathered:

> Bajaj does not have good numbers in India and partially it has to do with the higher price.
>Bajaj has ventured out to Triumph for a lower price + to build a retro bike.

KTM IMHO seemingly did not agree to cut down on the quality to reduce the price. Only time will tell if Triumph has agreed to go down this path.

[snappysam]

Originally Posted by DudeWithaFiat

Isn't the Duke 390's seat height 855mm? Unless its the V variant.

I reckon it is 830mm though specs say it to be 820mm. Mine is the 2020 version.

[snappysam]

Originally Posted by iron.head

Consider as speculative
KTM IMHO seemingly did not agree to cut down on the quality to reduce the price. Only time will tell if Triumph has agreed to go down this path.

Interesting.

While I don't want to go down the KTM DUKE 290 vs Speed 400 way, it seems to be that Speed 400 has been built to a cost. Then again, it is at a lower price compared to KTM 390. At least here in Kochi, the on-road price of the Speed 400 is Rs 3.03 Lakhs which is much less than the cost of KTM 390. Some features have been cut for sure. But the 400 retains most of the important bits and seems to be built well. Just don't compare it with its stable mates.
Speed 400 has a 16000Km/1 year service interval tentatively priced at less than Rs4000(says the showroom people) which is pretty good. Though I am not very sure of this long drain interval for oil. Will it last as long especially in our traffic conditions?

[iron.head]

Originally Posted by snappysam

Interesting.

Speed 400 has a 16000Km/1 year service interval tentatively priced at less than Rs4000(says the showroom people) which is pretty good. Though I am not very sure of this long drain interval for oil. Will it last as long especially in our traffic conditions?

I would never ever exceed 6000 KMs for any motorcycle I own. 4000-5000 KMs is the sweet spot. I always use Motul 7100.

I have seen a friend's 2017 GSX-R1000 engine oil at 9000 KMs and touched/felt it and it was extremely bad, and those engines are super refined. 16000 KMs on a single cylinder 400 producing ~40HP sounds like a done engine to me within 50,000 KMs. I am probably incorrect with this but 16000 KMs sounds atrocious by any standards.

[rajeevsulu]

Originally Posted by iron.head

I would never ever exceed 6000 KMs for any motorcycle I own. 4000-5000 KMs is the sweet spot.

I agree with you. I change my bike oil at 5000 kms. 16,000 kms is too too much. I guess we will know in the long run
Cheers

[itsMridul]

I have a feeling that this bike is getting criticism because of non-fulfillment of our unjustified expectations. We wanted a bike that would have very good low end torque (very much like REs, unlike KTM), power at midrange so that overtaking is a breeze and mad top end (like the KTM 390s) for long highway rides. All that in one package, which should be vibration free, have decent ergonomics and pillion comfort, should be a big bike but also nimble enough to glide through city traffic and above all return good mileage. And if these are not all, then it should come fitted with a few accessories from the factories and have the dash found in Trident 660.

I don't know if any machine could fulfill such diverse requirements, lest at this price point. We should look at the bike for what it offers and what this bike is meant to, not what we need it to be.

This is a wonderful bike, ticking most of the boxes for most people are looking for at this budget.

[shailinder]

Originally Posted by iron.head

I would never ever exceed 6000 KMs for any motorcycle I own. 4000-5000 KMs is the sweet spot. I always use Motul 7100.

I have seen a friend's 2017 GSX-R1000 engine oil at 9000 KMs and touched/felt it and it was extremely bad, and those engines are super refined. 16000 KMs on a single cylinder 400 producing ~40HP sounds like a done engine to me within 50,000 KMs. I am probably incorrect with this but 16000 KMs sounds atrocious by any standards.

Point taken, but just for perspective, how many people will be riding 16K KMs in a year? Most of the buyers (riders) would settle between 5K to 8K, and if that is the case, either by choice or default nature of the plan, they need to get their bikes serviced.

Triumph quoted 16K to back the confidence in their product. It is like NCAP rating, just to give confidence to the buyers in their product.

[CuriousMagpie]

I visited Retro Triumph Hyderabad yesterday afternoon. I'll spare the details since my experience is similar to a majority of others here, such as test ride experience (engine heat), lack of clarity of accessories, etc.

Few things to note for those in Hyderabad who are yet to go for a test ride:

• There are more than 5 bikes for test rides. So typically the wait times aren't too long even if there's significant crowd. Just that the showroom is a bit small, but that's perhaps okay given its premium location.
• Car parking is a challenge at the showroom (we went in car), so plan accordingly.
• No prior appointment is required. Just walk in if you have a booking. Wait time simply depends on the number of people before you. In my case, I waited longer than I should have because they could spare only 1 pen to fill the form.
• I'm not sure why they ask about profession or other details in the form. Some of the things that they asked seemed irrelevant to me.
• They're very particular about the 4 things - DL, helmet, shoes, and jeans. I didn't want to waste their or my time by not following those, so I checked all the 4 boxes.
• They have a spare helmet, but better to carry your own to avoid additional wait times. Helmet is needed for pillion rider too, in case you wish to test ride with one. I didn't expect them to mandate helmet for pillion, which they luckily provided since there wasn't much crowd.

Apparently deliveries have begun for the first 300 bookings. Hopefully they expect to deliver mine by early September since it's 4xx in the queue.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nati...hyderabad.html

When I inquired about accessories, and specifically regarding center stand (since that's mandatory at our office parking due to tight parking space), they didn't seem to have much idea but said that by the time my turn comes they'll have more info.

Based on their quotation (subtracting RSA and booking amount), looks like I'll need to pay 2,76,xxx plus accessories (which can be paid for and fitted at the time of delivery).

I had done a TR of RE Classic 350 last month, and I currently own Pulsar 135 LS which is nearly 13 years old now. Compared to both of those, Speed 400 seemed better. It's not perfect, but I think it's great for my needs. I had booked HD x440 Vivid too so I'll go for TR of that hopefully soon, and will most likely cancel that eventually.

[vzvish91]

Originally Posted by itsMridul

I have a feeling that this bike is getting criticism..
..This is a wonderful bike, ticking most of the boxes for most people are looking for at this budget.

Perfectly put down brother.

• Lot of content on social media, esp YouTube.
• Analysis-paralysis.
• Over evaluation & over thinking.
• Wrong/unjustified expectations.
• Low entry point (pre-booking amount).
• VFM exshowroom price.
• Early adopter discount (rs10000 for first 10k deliveries).

...I think lot of such points have sent many in over-critisizing-frenzy!

To anyone who is looking forward to buying this bike, I'll suggest that you let go of all the data points & hype/content around this bike. Take a step back and just come up with 3 points that you're looking for in your new bike. Then take couple of long-ish testrides. And then decide.
In doing so you might loose you rs10k discount, you might have to wait for 1/2month for delivery, you might even have to pay another ~5% extra if Bajaj/Triumph decides to increase the exshowroom price;
But all of this won't matter much in long run.

If you don't want to take any risk then you can even choose to wait for another 6-8months for real world ownership review and then go ahead with the purchase decision.
It's not like Bajaj/Triumph is going to stop it's production

I'm yet to testride this bike, but from what I've seen & read about it so far, it definitely looks promising

[Grr7]

Originally Posted by iron.head

[u]

KTM IMHO seemingly did not agree to cut down on the quality to reduce the price. Only time will tell if Triumph has agreed to go down this path.

If price and quality had such a strong correlation, then I dont think humble Corolla would have been so bullet proof while its european cousins (Skoda et al) be such moody troublesome cars.

Yes, Triumph Speed 400 is priced very lucratively. But that is because it needs to break into a segment which is exclusively ruled by RE till now.

However, just because RE or KTM have been milking the cash cow customers for costly hyped products or non existing competition, doesnt mean that SPEED 400 will break into 2 parts when it reaches 50000 km.

[lazyrev]

Originally Posted by rajeevsulu

I agree with you. I change my bike oil at 5000 kms. 16,000 kms is too too much. I guess we will know in the long run
Cheers

From what I have read this seems to be pretty standard for Triumph's other motorcycles too. Pretty much their whole lineup as far as I know. Like others said, doesnt mean it will break down for sure. If that was the case, we would know of a lot of 5-10 year old Triumphs with blown engines. They have a certain confidence in their engine and it's fair to allow them the benefit of the doubt for it.

Originally Posted by iron.head

If I might add my 2 cents, I'll say that KTM/Bajaj spent quite a while to improvise the 390 engine and has been perfected over the years. So much so that this keeps the price of the 390s quite high and very much to Bajaj's dismay. The only resort to lower the price on the 390 Adventure was to remove the IMU and the sensors. 390s are priced almost 2x outside of India.

Speed 400 on the other hand has a much lower price to start with and possibly lacks the engine characteristics of the 390 and I truly believe in when they say that you get what you pay for. My bet would always be on the KTM as I would hate to have engine repairs anytime earlier than 60,000 or 100,000 kms.

As time goes on and a product has been improved constantly without any major change, the cost of production will reduce, not increase. Bajaj has achieve huge economies of scale here with high domestic and export demand.

There is some partial additional cost due to new sensors and for emissions compliance but it is clear that KTM has easily milked all the demand in the sub 500cc performance range for many years now. My feeling is that they want to move back into the premium segment now, (where Triumph is coming from ironically) and are ok with losing the sub 3L customer base.

All bikes abroad are 2x the price of India, even the RE hunter. It is market positioning, not quality or performance that dictates that.

Engine "characteristics" are very much a personal preference kind of thing. I have ridden the ADVx from KTM after I rode the speed 400 and the latter wins for me hands down. I couldnt tolerate the vibes on the KTM at low revs and it's constant need to be pushed to high revs while I am in traffic.

People like 500 cc slow bikes and people love 300 cc fast bikes. Doesn't mean one is better than the other. There is no reason to believe the 400cc from Triumph will die just from this extrapolation exercise.

[pratik_terni]

Originally Posted by itsMridul

I have a feeling that this bike is getting criticism because of non-fulfillment of our unjustified expectations.
...
This is a wonderful bike, ticking most of the boxes for most people are looking for at this budget.

hello itsMridul, I agree that criticism is uncalled for and this bike does tick a lot of the "expectation" boxes.
But a comparison with the other offerings is to be expected, since some of the bikes are closely specced, even though they are "apples and oranges" comparisons.

It would be wrong to expect all of those parameters you mentioned from a single bike, because then one would have to look at a multi-cylinder middleweight bike (read expensive).

As mentioned in my previous post, I will most likely go ahead with the purchase as it is a fun bike to ride.

I dont expect the bike to have a crazy top end or acceleration like the KTM, but I do expect it to be decent enough for the highway owing to the 40 bhp it offers.

I think it is a fair expectation. I'd like to know what you think.