[2wheelsvaga]

Hi all. I was looking for information on the Scram 411, and I don't see too many in-depth reviews of the bike, hence my post.

(1) I looked through their information brochures and I am surprised to see that there is a significant weight difference of 15 kgs between the Scram (185) and the Himalayan (199). Why is this so?

Combined with its other advantages over the Himalayan (the 19" wheel and a headlight that moves with the handle), I feel it's a better tourer of the two. A test in the mountains was also praising it's better suspension setup. Of course, for really dedicated off-roading the Himalayan is the better of the two.

(2) Given that RE is going to come out with a liquid cooled 450 cc engine, should be expect the overall weight of the Himalayan/Scram to go up even more from the already high 199 kgs (or relatively light 185 kgs)?

Is the new Himalayan/Scram going to have a new frame? From some spy shots that I saw on the internet, it seems that the rear part of the frame is going to be pointing skywards. This means the new model will significantly alter the seating comfort of the pillion.

Thanks!

[WhiskeyTangoFox]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

(1) I looked through their information brochures and I am surprised to see that there is a significant weight difference of 15 kgs between the Scram (185) and the Himalayan (199). Why is this so?

Combined with its other advantages over the Himalayan (the 19" wheel and a headlight that moves with the handle), I feel it's a better tourer of the two. A test in the mountains was also praising it's better suspension setup. Of course, for really dedicated off-roading the Himalayan is the better of the two.

The Scram, IMO is better suited for single-person touring. I believe the seating on the Himalayan is slightly better and more plush. Of course, the flickability is better on the scram, but if you want to do two-up touring, you would have significantly more luggage, so for a Tail Bag + Saddle Bags, which is the regular setup for most, you'd end up adding back the rear rack to the bike. A windscreen is more touring-friendly on open roads, and I'd really appreciate a Centre stand on the bike in the event of a puncture. When you add all of these back, it is essentially a Himalayan minus the Jerry Can/Tank Guard frame. Then again, it will still have a small weight advantage over the himmy, but not by much. I think the Scram makes a good urban bike, with weekend trail riding outings, in its stock form.

Majority of the Himalayan's weight gain is in the sub frame reinforcement, which used to crack in the BS3 and BS4 Models. Based on the spy shots, it doesn't seem like the frame is the same, but only time will tell.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyTangoFox

The Scram, IMO is better suited for single-person touring. I believe the seating on the Himalayan is slightly better and more plush.

Yes, I dug a little and noticed that there is comfort or touring seat option for the Scram.

Of course, the flickability is better on the scram, but if you want to do two-up touring, you would have significantly more luggage, so for a Tail Bag + Saddle Bags, which is the regular setup for most, you'd end up adding back the rear rack to the bike. A windscreen is more touring-friendly on open roads, and I'd really appreciate a Centre stand on the bike in the event of a puncture. When you add all of these back, it is essentially a Himalayan minus the Jerry Can/Tank Guard frame.

Whoa, no centre-stand. How did I miss that? I suppose it's not less than 6-7 kgs? So, that's how they've got the weight savings? From the rear rack and the stand. Sheesh.

Majority of the Himalayan's weight gain is in the sub frame reinforcement, which used to crack in the BS3 and BS4 Models. Based on the spy shots, it doesn't seem like the frame is the same, but only time will tell.

So, the latest Scram and Himalayan frames are now adequately tested on the road? Do you know if recent buyers reported any issues there?
I should start a separate thread on this, but I am intrigued by the weight gain of all the REs over the years. If Honda can keep the CB 350 to a decent 181 kgs, then why not RE?

[WhiskeyTangoFox]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Yes, I dug a little and noticed that there is comfort or touring seat option for the Scram.

True, but a split seat is a lot less slidey if you know what I mean

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

So, the latest Scram and Himalayan frames are now adequately tested on the road? Do you know if recent buyers reported any issues there? I should start a separate thread on this, but I am intrigued by the weight gain of all the REs over the years. If Honda can keep the CB 350 to a decent 181 kgs, then why not RE?

I surely hope so XD. In this day and age, the slightest problem with anything instantly pops up on Youtube or Instagram, and I'm yet to see any chassis issue with the BS6 Models (touchwood). The square tubular frame in itself has a lot of disadvantages, which Ryan from F9 Mentioned in the below video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3xppn2STXk

[Shobhitsaxena]

Side stand is one of the key difference and practically speaking, you will have to get that on the Scram considering the spokes. IMO, RE missed a trick by not offering alloys on Scram. It would have been a truly diffentiated offering for road-biased riders like me.

I finally bought a Himalayan over Scram after I waited for latter's launch. After realising weight difference isn't much in practicality, I decided based on test drive, where I found the split seat to be considerably better on Himalayan.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Shobhitsaxena

Side stand is one of the key difference and practically speaking, you will have to get that on the Scram considering the spokes. IMO, RE missed a trick by not offering alloys on Scram. It would have been a truly diffentiated offering for road-biased riders like me.

I finally bought a Himalayan over Scram after I waited for latter's launch. After realising weight difference isn't much in practicality, I decided based on test drive, where I found the split seat to be considerably better on Himalayan.

Yeah, the seat is a big issue. I agree that offering alloys is a must. Who wants to be stranded out while touring the highway, or worse, being stranded in the mountains!

Now that you have the Himalayan, what has been your experience riding it? Any major issues? Strengths? Do you feel you could still get a Scram, perhaps the new generation one that should be coming up in the next few months.

[evil_grin]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Hi all. I was looking for information on the Scram 411, and I don't see too many in-depth reviews of the bike, hence my post.

Given that RE is going to come out with a liquid cooled 450 cc engine...

I took a back to back test ride of both the Himalayan and Scram a few days ago. Here are my findings:

1. Engine. Although they have the same engine, somehow, the Scram was way smoother and sounded better. Almost as if it was a different engine.

2. Looks. Subjective, but I found the Scram to be more stylish.

3. Suspension. Not a lot of difference .The Scram seemed to have less travel, but smoother damping.

4. Height. I'm a tall guy. I didn't find much of a difference. However, since the centre of gravity is higher in the Himalayan, it's harder to turn and pick up.

5. Stand up riding. The Himalayan has higher handlebars to it's much easier to stand up and ride for longer periods on it.

6. Gearbox. Both of them have an equally terrible gearbox. Very hard to shift. And no heel shifter! That's a deal breaker for me.

7. Compared to other RE bikes, these two are very easy to stall. The engine needs to be revved and felt like it has low torque at lower revs despite being a bigger engine than the J-series.

For most people who ride in the city and go on short highway rides, the Scram is the better bike. For those who do serious off-roading or regular long highway rides, the Himalayan makes more sense.

Given that Royal Enfield is making tremendous improvements in its bikes and the Himalayan was their first decent effort at a modern bike, I'd suggest waiting for the 450. I expect it to have a way better engine and gearbox.

[Shobhitsaxena]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Now that you have the Himalayan, what has been your experience riding it? Any major issues? Strengths? Do you feel you could still get a Scram, perhaps the new generation one that should be coming up in the next few months.

I have completed an year with Himalayan and 9.5k kms. Overall, I am loving it. The strengths of Himalayan are quite impactful and I have listed what I like and don't, that's all valid after 4k kms of writing the review. While I love the time with the bike, there have been two issues - fuel pump failure and consistent issues with horn (both mentioned in review as well).

I am not inclined towards Scram, current or new generation. It feels like a slight step down in terms of what the bike can do. Also, I am not an early adopter of automobiles, as unfortunately, Indian OEMs do 'test' the first generation on customers. So, I would let a new engine reach the next generation before considering (personal opinion).

It's not in sight, but when I upgrade, it would be a bigger engine (& alloys!). I am sure rest of my preferences will evolve as I will think of an upgrade only after 4-5 years.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by evil_grin

2. Looks. Subjective, but I found the Scram to be more stylish.

I agree. The Himalayan seems too tall and none of the colours particularly appeal to me.

4. Height. I'm a tall guy. I didn't find much of a difference. However, since the centre of gravity is higher in the Himalayan, it's harder to turn and pick up.

I think there isn't much of a difference in the sear height, so I doubt the COG is significantly different in both the bikes.
Perhaps, it's the 21" unwieldy front wheel that is the culprit.

6. Gearbox. Both of them have an equally terrible gearbox. Very hard to shift. And no heel shifter! That's a deal breaker for me.

Oh! That's kind of a deal breaker for me too. You see, even though I can live with only the toe shifter, I've always been used to and appreciated the heel and toe mechanism. It just doesn't work for me. I feel the toe only shifter is really meant for fast and quick sportsbikes, otherwise what's the great hurry?!

7. Compared to other RE bikes, these two are very easy to stall. The engine needs to be revved and felt like it has low torque at lower revs despite being a bigger engine than the J-series.

Interesting. i don't think I've heard this one before. It does sound strange though. Given that everyone talks about it great low-end torque, which while not much, also never gives up, I am surprised to hear of this issue.
I would consider it a deal-breaker for myself. It seems easy to say one can live with this, but all that's before one suffers through these issues.

For most people who ride in the city and go on short highway rides, the Scram is the better bike. For those who do serious off-roading or regular long highway rides, the Himalayan makes more sense.

Perhaps even for long highway rides between 80-90 kmph, the Scram is still the better one?
My sense is that the Himalayan makes a decisive difference only on dedicated off-roading conditions. The rest the Scram perhaps handles better, or about the same.

Given that Royal Enfield is making tremendous improvements in its bikes and the Himalayan was their first decent effort at a modern bike, I'd suggest waiting for the 450. I expect it to have a way better engine and gearbox.

I have to say I am waiting to see what they do with the 450. I am hearing that the torque is expected to be much improved and around the 40 N-m mark. That's quite a bit, and will allow you to go up curvy mountain roads with little stress, even with a pillion and 30 kgs luggage.
If they can do this, and somehow reduce the weight of the bike to around 185 kgs, I will take a test ride and make a booking.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Shobhitsaxena

I have completed an year with Himalayan and 9.5k kms. Overall, I am loving it. The strengths of Himalayan are quite impactful and I have listed what I like and don't, that's all valid after 4k kms of writing the review. While I love the time with the bike, there have been two issues - fuel pump failure and consistent issues with horn (both mentioned in review as well).

Ouch, the fuel pump issue sounds serious. Did it require significant dismantling of the engine? Costly?
I hope the issues with the horn have nothing to do with the electrics. The old CI had tricky wiring and you always needed experienced mechanics who could rectify it. I hope all that's in the past now, and this is just a one-off issue with your bike.

I am not inclined towards Scram, current or new generation. It feels like a slight step down in terms of what the bike can do.

Actually, I got interested in the Scram when I realised that it weighs significantly less. Then I was told here and also looked around on the internet to realise that it doesn't have the main stand and hence seems much lighter.

Also, I am not an early adopter of automobiles, as unfortunately, Indian OEMs do 'test' the first generation on customers. So, I would let a new engine reach the next generation before considering (personal opinion).

So right. Perhaps not so with makers such as Yamaha who have generally bought their leading products here provided they can sell it. But certainly so with most manufacturers.
I totally agree with you and think it is especially important if one plans to keep a bike for the long-run.

It's not in sight, but when I upgrade, it would be a bigger engine (& alloys!). I am sure rest of my preferences will evolve as I will think of an upgrade only after 4-5 years.

I do want to ask you how you dealt with the weight of the Himalayan. It's a cool 199 kgs kerb weight, so it must get really heavy with a pillion and complement of luggage.
How often have you put it down? In the mountains vs the city? Could you put it back up all on your own?
How often did you get into serious issues with the wire spoke wheels? I've heard that it's not easy to break alloy wheels even on bad roads, and it's not such an issues unless one is doing fast and serious off-roading. I doubt a setting like Ladakh will create problems here, provided of course, that you're not going to fast on that kind of terrain.
I feel alloys are a must-have, the convenience and safety certainly triumphs the aesthetic look of the wire spoke wheels.
Finally, do you think RE will take a risk on the upcoming Himalayan 450 by using people as test mules for its new liquid cooled engine? It'll be a pity, though going by the power and torque figures it seems they've done a great job.

[WhiskeyTangoFox]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

I do want to ask you how you dealt with the weight of the Himalayan. It's a cool 199 kgs kerb weight, so it must get really heavy with a pillion and complement of luggage. How often have you put it down? In the mountains vs the city? Could you put it back up all on your own?

Honestly in the city, the weight has better bothered me. I'm 5 10' and about 80 Kg for reference. I do work out occasionally and am in decent shape. It is slightly heavy with a pillion but when you're moving you don't feel the weight. I recently took the Himmy to Ooty fully loaded and with a pillion and had no issue chugging up the nearly 40-degree hairpin bends in certain cases. Hell, I even used 3rd gear in certain instances while climbing the bends. So in terms of low-end torque, the himmy is sorted. Of course, it isn't going to win any awards for speed, however.

I have dropped the bike a fair couple of times, on sand, slush and even tarmac (small tip overs, nothing major), and I was easily able to pick it up myself (Reverse Deadlift it).

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

How often did you get into serious issues with the wire-spoke wheels? I've heard that it's not easy to break alloy wheels even on bad roads, and it's not such an issues unless one is doing fast and serious off-roading. I doubt a setting like Ladakh will create problems here, provided of course, that you're not going to fast on that kind of terrain.

I've only had a single puncture in the past 9.5k Kms but yes Alloys do give peace of mind. I've done some bad Bangalore terrain (Including some air time by mistake once ) and the spoked wheels have been fine.

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

I feel alloys are a must-have, the convenience and safety certainly triumphs the aesthetic look of the wire spoke wheels.

Absolutely Agree. Aftermarket Alloy Options are next to nill however, and tubless spokes are ridiculously expensive.