[ashis89]

Originally Posted by GTO

- Ather is very smart. If you look at their pricing page, they are still charging you for software (aka Pro Pack) of the Ather 450 X separately. This Pro Pack of Rs. 30000 (primarily software), if added to the ex-factory price, will make it go over 1.5 lakhs. Am sure the government will get a wind of this too. Without the subsidy, no one will buy the Ather 450X Pro Pack.

Indian jugaad at its best.

Sorry for going OT but the Polestar remap by Volvo or performance packages by BMW would be considered similar. If they're are part of the vehicle from factory then we end up paying higher GST, registration cost and insurance on those upgrades as well.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by GTO

Please correct me if I am wrong as I don't follow the 2-wheeler segment as closely.

Fame II subsidy is applicable for electric 2-wheelers costing 1.5 lakhs or below, ex-factory. It's a big deal as the subsidy is approximately 55,000 bucks.

Not 100% sure about Rs 1.5 lac limit as I believe a lot of these are below this price.

What the government should do in such cases is allow higher trim models of base models also qualify. Here’s how they do in Canada, looks fair.

“a passenger car, where the base model Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is less than $55,000; and
higher priced trims of these vehicles, up to a maximum MSRP of $65,000, will also be eligible for purchase incentives.”

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transpo...ssion-vehicles

[GTO]

Originally Posted by ashis89

Sorry for going OT but the Polestar remap by Volvo or performance packages by BMW would be considered similar.

Correct, but those aren't availing of special subsidies either .

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Not 100% sure about Rs 1.5 lac limit as I believe a lot of these are below this price.

There are several news articles on this:

The allegation states that for an electric two-wheeler to be eligible for FAME II subsidy the ex-factory price should be no more than Rs 1.5 lakh. In the case of Ather Energy, the cost of an e-scooter starts at Rs 173,245 (ex-showroom Coimbatore) for the Ather 450+. The charger is sold separately for Rs 19,975.

And a chart:

Source

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by GTO

Correct, but those aren't availing of special subsidies either

Yes, no subsidies

but

OT- Tunes won't attract custom duty -100% and GST 50% and some other duties that are charged on a new CBU vehicle. So, Volvo definitely saved or gave a lower prices to customer (I don't have ready numbers of overseas price)

There are several news articles on this

Yes, I mentioned the limit in context of the refund. Aren't most of the models from Ola much lower than Rs 1.5 Lac even with the optional charger added to the costs? So this Rs 1.5 Lac limit and refund does not add up. There has to be another reason probably.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Yes, I mentioned the limit in context of the refund. Aren't most of the models from Ola much lower than Rs 1.5 Lac even with the optional charger added to the costs? So this Rs 1.5 Lac limit and refund does not add up. There has to be another reason probably.

After incentive OLA S1 Pro ex showroom price is 1.25 lakhs, the incentive is 10K × 4kwh = 40K. Before incentive it costs 1.65 lakhs which includes charger.

Though I don't understand how they calculate subsidy.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Ok, but what will be Ex-Factory prices? And is this the base model or the higher? I don't have knowledge about these things.

The point I am trying to ask is if all such scooters have a factory prices higher than Rs 1,5 lac if charger is added or only few models? Since a lot of these are direct sales, I believe there will be no dealer margin on most.

Above are latest prices on their website, I am clueless about the subsidy calculation.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

After incentive OLA S1 Pro ex showroom price is 1.25 lakhs, the incentive is 10K × 4kwh = 40K. Before incentive it costs 1.65 lakhs which includes charger.

Ok, but what will be Ex-Factory prices? And is this the base model or the higher? I don't have knowledge about these things.

The point I am trying to ask is if all such scooters have a factory prices higher than Rs 1,5 lac if charger is added or only few models? Since a lot of these are direct sales, I believe there will be no dealer margin on most.

[GTO]

Thanks to the Team-BHP fan & industry insider (he prefers to remain anonymous) who sent this information in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this page!

Ather, TVS, Hero, Ola were all billing the chargers separately and performance upgrades separately.

So Ather was selling 2 models earlier.

1. Ather 450+. This was with lower range. Lower power and a couple of missing features.

2. Ather 450X. This was the higher version with full power. Full Range. And all the features.

Billing was done as follows:

Ather 450+ and the charger separately.

Ather 450X and the performance upgrade and the charger separately.

So yes, this was done to keep the ex-factory price lower in order to claim Fame II subsidies. Now, they exploited this loophole in the system. They claimed that the vehicle is separate. Charger is separate. And performance upgrade is separate.

The government has now made it clear that in order to get the subsidy, the chargers should essentially be a part of the vehicle. And the battery capacity, range and power should not be artificially limited using software.

So here comes the new Ather 450X!

Ather 450X base version. Full power. Full range. Zero features.

Ather 450X pro pack. Same full power. Full range. All features.

So basically, now the pro pack has nothing to do with performance, range or battery capacity. It is just a feature enabler. This, the government doesn't have an issue with.

Also, the 450X base as well as 450X pro pack now have bundled chargers with them. No additional billing for the charger.

[adnaps]

Pay back time for these EV 2 wheeler manufacturers.

To remain within the 1.5 L limit , for the last few years they have been steadily increasing the price of the chargers. The price of 20K for a charger is inflated and is meant to offset part of the cost of the scooter.
Now with this direction to refund the cost of charger , it is going to bite these guys more than it should.

[MinivanDriver]

A slightly different view point. May be it is financially unviable to keep the price below 1.5L? More localization is needed to bring the cost down? If it is indeed true that it is financially unviable to keep the price below 1.5L, then it will kill the industry? Or lead to even more cost cutting at the cost of safety and quality?. Would like to hear fellow bhpians views on the same.

[ssingri]

Originally Posted by MinivanDriver

A slightly different view point. May be it is financially unviable to keep the price below 1.5L? More localization is needed to bring the cost down? If it is indeed true that it is financially unviable to keep the price below 1.5L, then it will kill the industry? Or lead to even more cost cutting at the cost of safety and quality?. Would like to hear fellow bhpians views on the same.

Was speaking to a friend of mine who has a large two wheeler franchise in South india. He says all ev two wheelers are losing money. So much so that OLA and Ather are losing a rupee for every rupee of revenue, so the more they sell the more they lose. Traditional operators like Bajaj and TVS are there in the market only to have a foot in the door and are not looking for volumes currently. The EV party will last as long as the VC money runs so it is the best time to buy with the govt holding the prices down and the VC and manufacturer covering the rest.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by ssingri

Was speaking to a friend of mine who has a large two wheeler franchise in South india. He says all ev two wheelers are losing money. So much so that OLA and Ather are losing a rupee for every rupee of revenue, so the more they sell the more they lose. Traditional operators like Bajaj and TVS are there in the market only to have a foot in the door and are not looking for volumes currently. The EV party will last as long as the VC money runs so it is the best time to buy with the govt holding the prices down and the VC and manufacturer covering the rest.

The information from your friend seems to be a little outdated (FY22 numbers). You can see Ather's FY21 and FY22 numbers below. While the expenses increased 2.3X, revenue has increased 5.1X.



As you can see from the below image, actual material costs are Rs 391 crores, and revenue is Rs 408 crores. With increased volumes in FY22, these numbers are better than FY21. Fixed costs are the major reason for the losses. But the revenue has grown substantially (5.1X) YoY while the fixed costs have only grown 60%. In FY23, sales again have grown much higher compared to FY22. So, margins are expected to be much better even though they might be still posting losses.


Coming to traditional companies, TVS is actually selling EVs in huge numbers. In fact, iQube is selling around 15,000 per month which is close to Ntorq numbers and only behind Jupiter. Bajaj is selling around 3,000 per month but they are also forced to reduce the prices due to competition and sales are already growing after that. Hero also reduced the prices and expanding production of Vida. With the sales of ICE vehicles dwindling and losing customers to the likes of Ola and Ather, traditional companies will have no choice but to compete with compelling models and prices in the near future.

[ssingri]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

The information from your friend seems to be a little outdated (FY22 numbers). You can see Ather's FY21 and FY22 numbers below. While the expenses increased 2.3X, revenue has increased 5.1X.

[

Coming to traditional companies, TVS is actually selling EVs in huge numbers. In fact, iQube is selling around 15,000 per month which is close to Ntorq numbers and only behind Jupiter. Bajaj is selling around 3,000 per month but they are also forced to reduce the prices due to competition and sales are already growing after that. Hero also reduced the prices and expanding production of Vida. With the sales of ICE vehicles dwindling and losing customers to the likes of Ola and Ather, traditional companies will have no choice but to compete with compelling models and prices in the near future.

Yes looks like they are losing 50p for every rupee of revenue now. The traditional players will be worse as they are late to the party. All this is without calculating cost of capital as it is VC money or self generated funds. We have to see what numbers they need to break even.

[adnaps]

Originally Posted by ssingri

Yes looks like they are losing 50p for every rupee of revenue now. The traditional players will be worse as they are late to the party. All this is without calculating cost of capital as it is VC money or self generated funds. We have to see what numbers they need to break even.

It is not a good idea to have businesses whose success depends on subsidy. If the business model cannot sustain itself there is a need for a course correction. An ice scooter is about 80K whereas the EV scooter is twice the cost after subsidy.

Subsidy is not sustainable in the long term else we will end up at a situation similar to the proliferation of diesel cars a few years back.

I wish the 2-wheeler EV manufacturer were seriously focused on cost reduction rather than "innovative work arounds" in regard to the subsidy policy to make their business viable.

[Venky03]

Received the following communication from TVS:



At the time of booking the iQube S(November 2022), the major additional charges were as follows:
Portable charger(750W) - ₹9999
Software upgrade - ₹4999

Now, the additional charges are :
Software upgrade - ₹9440

Comparing it with the no-nonsense Tork Kratos R invoice :

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by Venky03

Received the following communication from TVS:

Received the same message on whatsapp from TVS today morning.

At the time of booking the iQube S(November 2022), the major additional charges were as follows:
Portable charger(750W) - ₹9999
Software upgrade - ₹4999

Now, the additional charges are :
Software upgrade - ₹9440

There is no difference in the final pricing (on-road including charger) from earlier. It's just that unnecessary items like a software upgrade, charger, etc.. are being mentioned in the invoice to keep the total pricing under the limit to be eligible for subsidy. Now they are just giving the full on-road price including the charger after govt objections and withholding subsidies.