[DRIV3R]

Would not recommend kerosene/gear oil combo for modern O-ring chains. Putoline DX11 can be tried, it's supposedly a better lube than Motul C2, and is even used in the Dakar rallies.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

As it stands, with the newly introduced vibrations, that too from Suzuki's biggest motorcycle showroom in Kerala, I cannot take my motorcycle for the extensive touring that I had planned this month. I never thought that I would say that about a Suzuki product .

Firstly, a huge thanks to everyone who replied to my last post and pitched in with their experiences, observations, feedback and offerings for help.

Current Situation
- Once again, my motorcycle is not part of the 199 motorcycles that were officially recalled by Suzuki. This is as per the confirmation from the service advisor.
- Number of phone calls from the SA or showroom manager after I left their showroom on Monday : Zero
- I had to then reach out to a senior person in the company, to ask for the right technical expertise and inputs from different Suzuki channels, to be provided. We agreed that I will leave the motorcycle at the superbike SVC and I will only collect it after the issue is resolved, once and for all. That got things in motion.
- I forwarded the video from TBHPian Thatautoguy46 which was shared by TBHPian DRIV3R, with different people in the Suzuki ecosystem.
- The service advisor wanted me to bring the motorcycle to the Thrikakkara SVC for their mechanic to ride the bike and see if the vibrations were similar to the bike that they worked on earlier, as mentioned in my last post. I said that its not possible for me to go SVC hopping for them to match symptoms.
- I dropped the motorcycle off at the superbike SVC (7th of December).
- Now that the team has started asking around, they found that the complaint of excess vibrations has come up in 3 different customer bikes, in other districts. As I mentioned before, this isnt a one-off issue with my bike.
- Talking to the mechanics on this issue was so disheartening. Their thinking is completely sand boxed and along the usual, afraid of my own shadow lines. Some of their points were
: the bike has only done ~ 7K kilometers, there is no reason to open up the engine,
: what is the guarantee that after replacing the balancer shaft, the bike will have the same smoothness as when it was new?
: better to keep riding as is and not do anything
: if we open the engine and it isnt a balancer gear drive issue, the company will deny warranty. Then Suzuki will question them on why they opened up the engine.
: there doesnt seem to be any excess vibrations at all, other bikes vibrate more than this
- If the issue is identified as the balancer gear drive issue, the SA will order for the part. It will take a minimum of 20 days to arrive. After that they will need 1 - 2 days to install the part and test everything. No explanation of what it will take for them to triangulate the issue and arrive at the decision to order the necessary part(s).
- I sent a lengthy email to Suzuki India, explaining the entire situation.

Next Steps
Right now, there is no concrete action plan from the technical team. There isnt even a flaky plan from the technical team. Nobody has told me what they will do next, when they will do it, when I can expect to get an update, when the parts (if required) will be ordered, when I can get my motorcycle back etc. I was only asked if they can take it to the Thrikakkara SVC, where the vibration tool is present.

If I think back to the beginning, I told the superbike SVC about the existence of the vibration tool, informed them about the recall for the 250cc bikes, shared multiple links from the internet and even told them the potential solution (Thatautoguy46's video, though sadly it does appear to have only been a temporary fix). The superbike SVC team was clueless from day 1.

That brings me to the 3 fundamental issues which I am grappling with
1. Suzuki's processes and people
2. untrained personnel in SVCs
3. the motorcycle

Having owned a Royal Enfield which has not been completely niggle free, I have had the opportunity to interact with different gentlemen from the company, who have put in genuine efforts to resolve the issues and ensure customer satisfaction. There are clearly defined processes in place behind the scenes, that keep the colossal ship sailing. I dont see anything close to that in Suzuki. There is zero accountability. The only communication that happens is when I call them. Barring one gentleman who is reaching out behind the scenes, nobody else seems to be interested in resolving this problem.

Secondly, mechanics and service advisors that are in over their head, seems to be the norm across different cities and towns. In Kerala, it is a well known fact that Suzuki's after sales service is their biggest weakness. The technical team doesnt appear to be escalating it internally through the right channels, to get the required help to address this issue. If I didnt have the time or the inclination or access to this forum, to learn about this issue, I doubt whether the team would have had any clue on where to start looking. At least now, we have narrowed it down to one potential cause.

Lastly, Im no mechanical engineering expert but it appears to me that the improper positioning of the balancer driver gear, is a far more widespread issue than Suzuki either a. understands or b. publicly acknowledges. Alternatively, there is some other issue which is causing this vibrations, which has not been identified or diagnosed, which is also causing excess vibrations in these engines at such an early stage.

Closing Thoughts
6 months ago, if you had told me that I would be banging my head against a wall due to mechanical issues with my GSXRRR 250 and company apathy, I would have laughed heartily. Well, now the joke is on me. As wonderful as the Suzuki Gixxer SF 250 is, there is no reason for it to degrade in quality this early in its lifetime, much less at any point in its lifetime. I cant think of any other motorcycle in the market today, that will degrade this badly, this fast.

As a customer, I believe that I have done everything that can possibly be done, to help the team at Suzuki. Now the ball is in their court. Lets see what they do, or more likely, dont do. Either way, my motorcycle is off the road as of yesterday, 7th December 2022. That puts an end to my plans of riding to Yercaud and Ooty this week and my subsequent plan of touring through Karnataka, starting next week. Thanks Suzuki

Anyways, once again, thanks to all the members of the rider community, both on and off the forum, for your support and inputs, including a friend who very kindly offered me his Honda CBR250 for the solo touring that I planned to do. Hopefully, Suzuki pulls up its socks. For now, its goodbye to the GSXRRRRRR 250. Who knows when you will be ready to return home?

[SubodhRage]

Hey Neil!

First of all!
Sad to hear about another fellow Gixxer owner having similar issues. Looks like I haven't updated much on the last post as well.

I had the following updates from my end on my 2020 Gixxer 250SF.

I had taken the bike to another service center citing issues with vibration. While they didn't have the vibration testing bench, I showed them the video where the bike was seemingly vibrating beyond the accepted tolerances close to 7K rpm. This was back when the bike had close to 3K kms on the ODO. They checked if my bike was eligible for recall, and it wasn't. But I pushed hard, and they decide to open up the clutch casing and change the balancer gear. This was done by a service center in Noida, and I had to travel close to 30kms to their place to get my issue sorted.

Nevertheless, while it resolved the issue for a while, the issues cropped up again after close to 7K kms on the ODO (2kms after the replacement!)

Based on my knowledge of engines, I'm thinking that if the replacement of the balancer gear didn't make improve the case, the next root-cause point could be

1. the balancer shaft, but for that we'd have to open up the entire engine because none of the engines provide an easy access to the balancer shaft. Another possible point of vibrations could be the throttle body, and,
2. the throttle body because I noticed that I felt vibrations more while accelerating as well. Please note over here that I wasn't lugging the engine at this point, I was shifting at close to 3-5K min, and I tried to ooze out a bit more power by yanking the throttle a bit more. Could be that the engine is not that tractable in real?
   I do remember that previously it used to be able to shift at 3-4K rpm and still give a punch!

I conveyed the same to my technician, and to no surprises even he started bleating and giving excuses on the lines similar to what experienced! (LOL, cries sadly in a corner!) My cries seemed like a cacophony of wails which fell on deaf ears. Lack of support from anyone higher-up in the Suzuki admin chain led me to leave the issue and adjust to these vibrations! Afterall, vibrations are an acquired taste! (LOL, again cries in the corner!)
I rode the bike on and on hoping the vibrations could get sorted on their magically but so far, they are still noticeable. I took the 5-year warranty because I thought I'd need this. If there actually is a balancer shaft issue, it would prematurely destroy the engine owing to the vibrations and a warranty should cover that, right?

Over the period, I had ridden a few Husqs from the year 2020, and apparently, they aren't faring well either, but the 2022 and late 2021 Gixxers have tremendously reduced vibrations! But over the last 2 years of ownership, I noticed that if you get the bolts tightened, get the engine oil replaced every 6 months and get the chain tightened every 3 months or so, the vibrations reduced a bit. It sounds awfully like the routine the Dominar and Husqvarna riders follow!

Right now, there is a new problem that cropped up which is the pre-mature replacement of the clutch. Now being a second-hand bike, and no history of the usage apart from the service records, I can give it a benefit of the doubt, but the issue with vibrations is something that's pushing me away from this bike. I'm planning to get the bike checked at another service center to see if it's actually the plates that have worn down or is it just the clutch tensioning bolts that have loosened up a bit.

However, given that you mentioned that this isn't a one-off issue, I'm thinking to pursue it again, and bring more pressure on the Suzuki A.S.S people!

[VijayAnand1]

Neil, a shallow experience at that. From what I can observe, no amount of torquing or overtorquing the foundation/bed bolts of the bike is going to solve the issue from your experience. The issue is definitely not isolated to mere bolt torques. I agree properly torqued is a feeling altogether different. but from what I can fathom, this is a far cry.

As sinister an issue this is, I reckon the issue can perhaps be isolated to the powertrain, lo an behold. My guesses would perhaps be again, a faulty balancer shaft, mismatched balancer timing, or worse a faulty balancer design itself. Again, me ain't an expert neither, but Suzuki should work something along those lines, instead of shooing away customers with a vibration analyzer. Appreciate you taking the time to pull the strings at the dealership level, this will substantially improve future redneck fixes for its customers as a whole and not leave a sore after taste.

Good luck, don't give up on the resolution Neil.

Cheers!
VJ

[Sudarshan42]

This is very disappointing to hear, Neil. We buy Japanese products thinking they're better than the rest in terms of reliability, quality and general peace of mind. They even charge a healthy premium for it. Looks like Suzuki just wants to sell scooters in India- as long as that MO is healthy, who cares about a handful of 250cc bike owners?

I had very nearly shortlisted the V Strom 250 (along with the CB350 as an option) for a new bike purchase early next year- would need to rethink that now. I hope someone somewhere at Suzuki India is reading your thread- you're losing sales here Suzuki!

[dheer4]

Being an Owner of a Suzuki SF 250, which has clocked over 20,000 Kms, I feel you!. I too have these excessive vibrations around 5,500 RPM and had the engine replaced under warranty for burning excessive oil. Clutch was replaced as well, but the vibrations still did not go away. After escalating to the really higher ups in Suzuki, there seems to be no resolution from their side.

Things I had tried to solve this:
1. Replaced the chain at 10,000Km. Found a short term solution and vibrations went away but came back soon after 2,000 Km.
2. Tightened all the body bolts and nuts to the specific torque in the manual. No change.
3. Had the clutch replaced. No change.
4. Got the wheels balanced. No change
5. Got the wheel bearing lubricated and inspected. No change.

The engine seems to develop these issues after at least 5,000 Km in my case and no one in the A.S.S seems to know anything in depth about this bike. No one at Suzuki is bothered as well. I hope you can find some resolution!

[neil.jericho]

Current Situation
- After writing to the Suzuki customer care, they responded with a few queries on the VIN, dealership, last service etc. With my response, they have finally raised a ticket today.
- On Day 2 after I dropped the bike off, the service advisor informed me that they had a discussion with some senior technical folks, regarding the problem of excess vibrations on my motorcycle. The team at the SVC was given technical inputs on what exactly needs to be checked, to help rule out different possible causes. The actual details provided were scarce and I didnt prod for any further information. Im just glad that the SVC team knows where to start looking.
- There still is no commitment on timelines.

Coming to the updates from fellow TBHPians Thatautoguy46, SubodhRage and dheer4, I am really disappointed with Suzuki's mindset. Thatautoguy46 mentioned that his chain sprocket gave up within 13,000 kilometers. TBHPian dheer4 mentioned that the chain was replaced at 10,000 kilometers. Those are simply ridiculously low numbers.

Guess what? When I casually asked the technician at Aluva Suzuki about the chain life, he mentioned that its really short on the 250. When I enquired why it is so, he had no explanation. He said that that is how it is with the 250s, even if you clean and lube the chain, as often as I do. For reference, I thoroughly clean the chain and use a chain lube, once every 500 kilometers.

Thatautoguy46 has mentioned that despite the official recall, the vibrations returned. SubodhRage's experience mirrors this. dheer4's experience seems to have been the worst, of all. Despite replacing the engine and clutch, the vibrations are still there.

What is the point of Suzuki providing a warranty if they arent going to put in any efforts towards resolving what seems to be systematic re-occurances of the symptoms, despite their "limited recall".

Since we seem to have stumbled on a second problem of premature chain wear, these are the people suffering from that issue
1. TBHPian dheer4 - chain replaced at 10,000 kilometers.
2. TBHPian Thatautoguy46 - chain replaced at 13,000 kilometers.

As per my count, this is the count of motorcycles impacted by the same vibrations issue, very early in the life of the engine
1. TBHPian dheer4 - engine and clutch changed. Problem returned.
2. TBHPian Thatautoguy46 - part of the official recall. Problem returned.
3. TBHPian SubodhRage - Balancer gear changed. Problem returned.
4. TBHPian unknown (recently found out that my friend is a newly minted TBHPian) - bike returned by Apco Suzuki without fixing it.
5. TBHPian neil.jericho - investigation underway.
6. 2022 Gixxer SF 250 that I found in the Superbike SVC.
7. Unknown Gixxer / SF 250 in the Thrikakkara SVC.
8. Unknown Gixxer / SF 250 in the Kollam SVC.
9. Unknown Gixxer / SF 250 in a Kerala SVC.

Originally Posted by Sudarshan42

This is very disappointing to hear, Neil. We buy Japanese products thinking they're better than the rest in terms of reliability, quality and general peace of mind. They even charge a healthy premium for it. Looks like Suzuki just wants to sell scooters in India- as long as that MO is healthy, who cares about a handful of 250cc bike owners?

Sudarshan42, I was talking to a friend of mine who owns a VStrom 250 and your words are exactly what he told me. He came from over a decade on the venerable Honda Unicorn and went with the VStrom 250 over its competition, because of his faith in both, Suzuki and Japanese motorcycles.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Vibrations issues with Suzuki Gixxer SF250 - Posts moved out to a new thread.

@ BHPians, if you should spot any noteworthy post in an existing thread that deserves its own new thread, please report the post and we'll move it out for greater visibility.

Thank you!

[SkylineGTR]

This is extremely disheartening, if this the level of service on Suzuki's after sales on their most premium product one can imagine what happens to people with regular Gixxers 150s.

With the problem being at this level maybe more media attention is needed? Maybe we can pitch together and tweet to Suzuki? Let me know if something like this needs to be done, i'm definitely down for it.

Have people with the naked Gixxer 250 also faced this issue?

[mad4nfs]

Originally Posted by SkylineGTR

This is extremely disheartening, if this the level of service on Suzuki's after sales on their most premium product one can imagine what happens to people with regular Gixxers 150s.

With the problem being at this level maybe more media attention is needed? Maybe we can pitch together and tweet to Suzuki? Let me know if something like this needs to be done, i'm definitely down for it.

Have people with the naked Gixxer 250 also faced this issue?

I own a Gixxer 250 naked and I haven't noticed such level of vibrations yet (touchwood). Just to let everyone know that its a recent purchase (3 months back) and I've covered only 1400+kms on it.
And I really feel bad for fellow SF250 owners and at the same time I feel good for myself because I dodged a bullet by going for the naked version. I hope Suzuki takes notice of this issue and provide a solution.

[shancz]

Quite unfortunate and sad to read about your ordeal.
It was particularly disheartening to see you go through this after being treated to your passionate write-ups on the 250SF and honestly it was because of your posts that I even considered its existence as an option.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

After all, I know several Suzuki Gixxer 155 owners who have easily crossed 1,00,000 kilometers on their bikes, without any complaints and are confident that their motorcycles can do another 1,00,000 kilometers more, without skipping a beat.

I have always maintained that Suzuki powertrains are better than their competition but seems like times have changed.
I too don't have a lot of confidence on the newer SEP engines in terms of longevity but I have a low bar for scooter engines though.
I have an Access BS4(~15k kms) on fully synthetic oil and regularly used a friend's Swish(>30k kms) on mineral oil. Swish's engine is butter smooth compared to the Access.
Every time the Swish goes to the ASC there's a smile on the guys face when they ride it in the work area. Many have offered to buy it, zero offers for the Access
The only other bike which invokes such a response is the GS150R which is owned by the senior mechanic.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

As a customer, I believe that I have done everything that can possibly be done, to help the team at Suzuki.

You have done significantly more than that, I hope they realize it and work towards a faster resolution and future learnings(I doubt this though).

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

That brings me to the 3 fundamental issues which I am grappling with
1. Suzuki's processes and people
2. untrained personnel in SVCs
3. the motorcycle

1. I have experienced it across ASCs at varying degrees but what I realize is that my experiences(both good and bad) have been dependent a lot on the people involved which indicates the lack of a sound and well understood process from the manufacturer.
There's a large board in their ASCs with 5 points, each representing a word in Japanese and their meaning. That always makes me smile
2. Technical expertise is seriously lacking though, I have found one ASC with a relatively more knowledgeable and senior guy and I stick to that. But even in that ASC the other technicians have the same traits like you've experienced. I also noticed a lot of rotation(attrition?) among the junior level employees across ASCs. Could be a contributory factor. I have seen them fail to put together a couple of fiber panels and some screws.
3. This one is really bad. I suspect a design flaw which is either unknown or too hard to fix and Suzuki isn't coming clean on that.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Im just glad that the SVC team knows where to start looking.
- Thatautoguy46 has mentioned that despite the official recall, the vibrations returned.

- That's a positive start, hope they find the cause and solve it rather than sweeping it under the rug with some temporary hacks.
- Based on what I've read in the thread and especially that video I would've suspected them to just tighten the loose stuff which removes/reduces the rattles for some time until they return as the core issue still exists.

Deriving from the list of all the 250SFs you shared it seems like the cause is either in the engine(design flaw/premature wear of some parts) or in some mounts which wear out over time/usage. While what the ASCs are doing is to tighten the loose stuff which gets loose again after some time and replace parts as ordered, essentially shooting in the dark.

I agree to the point on them focusing on scooters as they're the ones making money but things aren't too rosy there either. Probably because a typical scooter rider won't care much about vibrations as the primary use case is the chaotic city traffic.


Wish you significantly better luck with a hope that Suzuki finds and fixes the issue for good.
Keep us posted.

[SkylineGTR]

Originally Posted by mad4nfs

I own a Gixxer 250 naked and I haven't noticed such level of vibrations yet (touchwood). Just to let everyone know that its a recent purchase (3 months back) and I've covered only 1400+kms on it.
And I really feel bad for fellow SF250 owners and at the same time I feel good for myself because I dodged a bullet by going for the naked version. I hope Suzuki takes notice of this issue and provide a solution.

Most people reported the issue cropping up around 6000-7000 km mark. So keep your fingers crossed, hope no issue happens with you.
I love the SF 250 but have been putting off the purchase because of the bad stories i've heard about Suzuki's after sales. Always maintained that the products of Suzuki are great, its the ASC center staff that mess things up for them. Looks like that assumption might not hold true after all

[neil.jericho]

Current Situation
- On day 4 after dropping off the motorcycle, I received a generic email from the service advisor, with someone cc-ed on it. Surprisingly, that was to a personal email ID, so I dont know who they have looped in. It probably isnt a Suzuki employee. No timelines were mentioned in the email. No telephonic updates either. Im not sure if my email to Suzuki India was just forwarded to the dealership or if the dealership proactively sent this email from their side.
- I did receive the following SMS from the company. I must say, it is rather thoughtful of them, to do so. While they are at it, hopefully they can resolve this issue of excess vibrations, as well!

Originally Posted by SkylineGTR

Have people with the naked Gixxer 250 also faced this issue?

Thanks SkylineGTR. I believe that at this stage, Suzuki knows that the matter of excess vibrations, this early on in their 250cc engines, is in the limelight. It might be best to wait and see what transpires. The official recall was for both the naked and the faired Gixxer 250s, so I believe that its safe to say that yes, the naked Gixxer 250 faced the exact same issue.

Originally Posted by shancz

I have always maintained that Suzuki powertrains are better than their competition but seems like times have changed.

Thanks shancz. I too have long held the belief that globally, Suzuki makes some excellent powertrains, many of which are so overengineered that it allows them to get away with meeting modern regulations, without too much re-engineering. This 250cc engine sadly doesnt seem to have the same DNA as the other engines from the company.

Originally Posted by shancz

Deriving from the list of all the 250SFs you shared it seems like the cause is either in the engine(design flaw/premature wear of some parts) or in some mounts which wear out over time/usage. While what the ASCs are doing is to tighten the loose stuff which gets loose again after some time and replace parts as ordered, essentially shooting in the dark.

Shooting in the dark is exactly what happens at most Suzuki SVCs in Kerala. For a widespread problem like this, I would place the onus more on the company, for not identifying and resolving the excess vibrations, in a timely manner, than on the technicians. Im not in any way justifying technical incompetence in the local SVCs. Far from it. Its just that in this case, a permanent resolution will likely need the right involvement, effort and time, from Suzuki's core technical team, rather than local technicians. Otherwise, it will be the usual temporary band-aid that will peel off in a few thousand kilometers

[shancz]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- This 250cc engine sadly doesnt seem to have the same DNA as the other engines from the company.

- I would place the onus more on the company, for not identifying and resolving the excess vibrations, in a timely manner, than on the technicians.

- I would say this applies to the SEP family of engines with the 250 being the worst.

- Absolutely, its a new engine and they have to fix the defects. Then train the technicians on how to properly fix the issue and hopefully issue a recall.

I have always wondered that when the problem is identified and confirmed by the ASC how challenging it is for Suzuki to send a technical team/person from the HQ to the location to find and fix or ship the bike for further diagnosis, arranging alternatives for the customer.
Its a newly developed engine, they should expect some issues to crop up and it has, so they should find and fix it for good.

[neil.jericho]

My Service Advisor informed me that their team had followed all the steps recommended by the central Suzuki technical team. I was asked to come check if the excess vibrations issue on the motorcycle was resolved.

As per the showroom manager and the service advisor, below are the steps that they were instructed to take
- Check suspension mounting and balancing
- Check swing arm alignment is correct on both sides
- Check front sprocket
- Check chain slack
- Perform wheel balancing for the rear (wasnt needed, as I had balanced the wheels at the tire change which was at 5K kms) and wheel bearing lubrication
- Torque everything as per OEM specification

This is the same SOP (Vibration issues with Suzuki Gixxer SF 250) that they followed for TBHPian dheer4's motorcycle.

Sadly, the vibrations are still evident in the handlebar, footpegs, tank, seat and rear section. This was confirmed by the service advisor and showroom manager.

Since the issue is not resolved, the motorcycle continues to remain in the Suzuki SVC. I have sent an email confirming that I am not taking delivery of the motorcycle, since Suzuki hasnt fixed the problem with my motorcycle.

As of now, I dont know what the next steps are.

Meanwhile, some interesting points came up in my discussion with the SVC team.
- Now that they know the exact symptoms to look for, they are finding it in all the other Gixxer and Gixxer SF 250 motorcycles.
- Apparently, another motorcycle with less than 2,000 kilometers on the odometer, had the exact same vibrations.
- Even the brand new Gixxer 250 in their showroom has similar vibrations.
- The VStrom 250s dont seem to have the issue. (Again, its a very low seller in Kerala, so sample size is negligible)

However, I remember finding vibrations in the brand new VStrom 250 test ride motorcycle. I went back to my post on the VStrom 250 thread (Suzuki V-Strom 250 SX, now launched at Rs. 2.12 lakhs) to see if I had made a mention of it. Sure enough, below is what I had written on the 2nd of June 2022.

There are some vibrations at around 6,000 RPM. It makes itself evident through the base of the pillion seat, which is a very unusual place to get these vibes.

The facts leave me with more confusion than clarity. What I am certain of is that
- this is a widespread issue and
- there is no way that a company like Suzuki was unaware of this problem

What I cannot understand is how an engineering juggernaut like Suzuki was unable to rectify the problem for a motorcycle that has been in the market for a few years Well wishers have already suggested that Suzuki seems to be incapable and / or unwilling to rectify what seems to be an obvious fault in the 250cc platform, and hence, it might be best to just sell the motorcycle immediately. There are a lot of other motorcycles in the market that come with refinement and reliability.

For now, like everyone else who is glued to this thread, Im waiting and watching.

Once again, the ball is in Suzuki's court.