[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Nonetheless RE's management would view every new X440 or Speed 400 as a sale lost, there is no room for complacency.

They might, but as of now that may be applicable for the Scram 411 or maybe the Classic 350.
Himalayan 450 is a distant dream.
Why? I'll support with a comparison sheet.



Except for power to weight ratio, the RE Scram outshines the Triumph almost everywhere. Add to that the dirt cheap maintenance. Throw in the aspect of limited showrooms and service support (already discussed) Where does that take us to?

The 'K' platform will lead to a new line up of liquid cooled bikes.
RE will have a line-up of liquid cooled bikes for launch based on the 'K' platform, first of which is the Himalayan 450.

You are right. Even the RE family tree based on the new 450cc liquid cooled engine says so.



The lead models are Himalayan 450 and Scram 450. The derivative of Himalayan may be the Dakar spec or Rally Pro. The Scram platform might be further develop into a tracker and a faired cafe racer.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Proxima

I really like Eicher (parent of RE) as a company but for now, a lot of people think that their dominant position is under threat. A quick glance at their stock price (compared to Hero and Bajaj) will confirm that stance. I for one think that their products have improved in leaps and bounds and if they continue down that path, their dominant position will continue.

The same stock price slide happened during the Jawa launch, fast forward to today and I wont be surprised if one of the two wheeler majors simply buy out Mahindra from it's two wheeler business.

Originally Posted by aviator1101

They might, but as of now that may be applicable for the Scram 411 or maybe the Classic 350.
Himalayan 450 is a distant dream.
Why? I'll support with a comparison sheet.

Attachment 2474462

Except for power to weight ratio, the RE Scram outshines the Triumph almost everywhere. Add to that the dirt cheap maintenance. Throw in the aspect of limited showrooms and service support (already discussed) Where does that take us to?

Thats a very simplistic argument. The Triumph 400 is a brilliant package and there's no denying that. 4-piston front brakes with 300mm discs and braided lines, cast-aluminium swingarm, usd front forks, throttle-by-wire, switchable traction control, dual-channel ABS and icing on the cake that 4 valve liquid cooled engine that produces 50% more power and 15% more torque over the RE Scram.

RE will respond in kind with the K platform models. I do not think it will take that long.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by shortbread

RE will respond in kind with the K platform models. I do not think it will take that long.

I am sure they will. The good part is that the biking brotherhood will benefit from the overall results.
Better technology, competitive pricing, more options within the reach even if we leave the economic growth part aside.
Think of a time when scooters meant only Bajaj, Lambretta, LML Vespa and bikes meant RE, Rajdoot and Yezdi. Then came the Japanese holding hands of one Indian partner each, but the target was commuter segment and focus was fuel efficiency. Anything even remotely performance oriented did not do well. How far and how much we have progressed now. We are talking in terms of performance figures and capabilities of the bikes in various segments. What a welcome change. The thumb rule remains the same... Survival of the Fittest . The auto industry is heading for more changes and surely for the good....

[aviator1101]

Sharing a Comparison Sheet of almost all ADVs/Scramblers available in the Indian Market today. Do not ask why Yezdi has been left out
The last two columns are there just to make you feel jealous

It is interesting to note here that even in its present form, ie the 411cc version, the Himalayan seems to outshine the other offerings in most of the attributes. Imagine what it will do with the new liquid cooled 450cc engine which will generate power figures almost equivalent to the KTM or the Triumph.



Interesting times ahead

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

Sharing a Comparison Sheet of almost all ADVs/Scramblers available in the Indian Market today.
Interesting times ahead

Why haven’t you included wet weight? That is a very important consideration.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Why haven’t you included wet weight? That is a very important consideration.

There are endless attributes based on which these bikes can be compared. However, in the present comparison sheet, kerb weight has been omitted with a particular reason. The Himalayan's air-oil cooled 411 cc engine in the curent form produces only 23.9 HP and with a kerb weight of almost 200 kgs, the power to weight ratio is one of the poorest.

However, things are going to change with the liquid cooled 450 cc engine which, as I have mentioned in previous post, will produce almost equivalent or maybe better figures than the other competitors most of which have liquid-cooled hearts.

Nonetheless, your observation is appreciated...

[Proxima]

I met someone from RE on a flight today. He confirmed that the Himalayan 450 will be launched in a couple of months. Maybe even before Rider Mania.

[subincb]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

There are endless attributes based on which these bikes can be compared. However, in the present comparison sheet, kerb weight has been omitted with a particular reason. The Himalayan's air-oil cooled 411 cc engine in the curent form produces only 23.9 HP and with a kerb weight of almost 200 kgs, the power to weight ratio is one of the poorest.

However, things are going to change with the liquid cooled 450 cc engine which, as I have mentioned in previous post, will produce almost equivalent or maybe better figures than the other competitors most of which have liquid-cooled hearts.

Nonetheless, your observation is appreciated...

One of the most important thing in an off-road bike especially if has to traverse muddy hilly region is the weight. It won't be possible to traverse and to even lift the bike up in those areas you will need two or three guys.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by Proxima

I met someone from RE on a flight today. He confirmed that the Himalayan 450 will be launched in a couple of months. Maybe even before Rider Mania.

The above news extract is from 91wheels.com

Your source is correct as Rider Mania tentative dates are 24-26 November 2023.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by subincb

One of the most important thing in an off-road bike especially if has to traverse muddy hilly region is the weight. It won't be possible to traverse and to even lift the bike up in those areas you will need two or three guys.

With all due respect Sir, though the current Himalayan 411cc doesn't have very encouraging power to weight ratio, it's low end torque delivery is amazing and it has been around for quite some time and even proved its mettle enough on rough roads.

As a matter of fact, it's the most preferred bike to take off road by riders because of its amazing suspension and low end torque.

A lady with YouTube channel Itchy Boots has taken this bike half way around the globe traversing all kinds of path, even to Alaska. That does mean something Sir.

Let's give the Himalayan it's dues. And I'm sure the newer version with a liquid cooled engine would further improve the power figures (which I've mentioned in previous two posts also).

[davelok]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

A lady with YouTube channel Itchy Boots has taken this bike half way around the globe traversing all kinds of path, even to Alaska. That does mean something Sir.

Sorry to correct you here Sir, but she ditched the Himalayan after it got stranded in Peru when she had to return to Europe due to the lock down. She completed the tour to Alaska last year on a Honda CRF 300L. Before that, she used a CRF 250 in southern Africa and a 500X in Europe.

Apart from the heavy weight of the Himalayan, her other issues with it were its low highway speeds and a lack of support from the manufacturer and dealers. I don't think she'll go back to Royal Enfield now.

[aviator1101]

Originally Posted by davelok

Sorry to correct you here Sir, but she ditched the Himalayan after it got stranded in Peru when she had to return to Europe due to the lock down. She completed the tour to Alaska last year on a Honda CRF 300L. Before that, she used a CRF 250 in southern Africa and a 500X in Europe.

Apart from the heavy weight of the Himalayan, her other issues with it were its low highway speeds and a lack of support from the manufacturer and dealers. I don't think she'll go back to Royal Enfield now.

Why be sorry firstly Sir? You are right. It was my mistake. She could not take it to Alaska because of Covid restrictions and subsequent lockdown. The Himalayan was left at Peru indeed.

Next, the lady also has posted her fond memories over a journey of 60000 kms on the Himalayan. That shows how the bike took her through all kinds of terrain. Posting the link below. Those interested may go through it.

https://youtu.be/r6Dpwc1y3ZU

Lastly, we are digressing from the topic of the thread. Idea is neither brand bashing, nor to glorify something unnecessary. I had posted a comparison yesterday to bring out how the new 450 Himalayan might position itself in comparison to the existing competition.

Hence, this is my last post on this weight and capability of REH 411 topic.. Peace

[Shubhendra]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

As a matter of fact, it's the most preferred bike to take off road by riders because of its amazing suspension and low end torque.
Let's give the Himalayan it's dues. And I'm sure the newer version with a liquid cooled engine would further improve the power figures (which I've mentioned in previous two posts also).

+ 200
Himalayan's low end torque and suspension is the USP of it. on a hilly terrain with bad roads, it really really helps . I have been riding Himalayan since 2016 and in 2022 I had almost made my mind to replace it with something more powerful. But in 2022, I rode a rented Himalayan for 3100 Kms through interiors of Arunachal Pradesh followed by another 2600 kms road trip to Arunachal again a month back. I am in love with this bike again.
Now I am just waiting for more powerful Himalayan (without compromising low end torque) which can cruise on highways at 110-120 mph without straining the engine.

[WhiskeyTangoFox]

Originally Posted by aviator1101

With all due respect Sir, though the current Himalayan 411cc doesn't have very encouraging power to weight ratio, it's low end torque delivery is amazing and it has been around for quite some time and even proved its mettle enough on rough roads.

Agreed. Neither RE nor Himalayan Owners claim that the bike is a high speed touring machine It is pretty good off-road if you are skilled enough (check out the video link below). The agenda of the outgoing Himalayan is simple, easy to own and use highway tourer that was primarily built to take on places like ladakh. Of course, in 2016 the world was different and the Himalayan paved the way for the small segment ADV Market that we see in India today. The problem with the picture is that RE couldn't (or didn't) consider bettering the Power to Weight Ratio of the vehicle. I guess they were initially too preoccupied with fixing the niggles that the BS3 and 4 versions had, and then just figured that they'd start developing the next model altogether XD

That being said, I still think the Himalayan is a wonderful bike when you look at what it was made for and stop trying to compare it to what it isn't. Really excited for the new bike though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDVYKuW4dlQ&t=2s

[nasirkaka]

So the REH 450 vs Triumph Scrambler 400x war is over even before it began.

Triumph's 400 engine platform is ideal for an adventure bike. Post the Speed 400 and scrambler 400 (400X), there would most certainly be an Adv 400, just like KTM 390 platform was initially used for Duke and RC and later into the 390 ADV.

In fact, the Triumph 400 engine seems better suited for adventure riding compared to the KTM 390 mainly due to better low-end torque delivery. And that adv 400 would be a pitted against the likes of H450, 390ADV and 310GS and would be a serious competition especially knowing how well the Speed 400 is priced.

I have a feeling that all this may actually delay the launch of H450, as RE may have to re-think on the cost and might have to break their heads over how to keep it low. High price would further take potential buyers to other brands like 400X.

I have been waiting for H450 for a while now and must admit that the 400X is definitely thrown a spanner in the work. I am not jumping the gun and will wait to test them both when they are out and whatever may be the final decision, 400X is definitely there is contention and a strong one.

A visualization by Susobhan on the lines of tiger gives the Triumph 400 engine a nice silhouette.