[gthang]

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[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by sreeharipv

Most electric scooters can do 75 km from a full charge. So if you keep it plugged in, you can go for that 20 km detour a couple of times... What if you had an emergency ?

numbers are just examples there is nothing sacrosanct about 20 or 40 km. All I am saying is, range cannot be planned precisely day in and day out. This is no emergency situation. This is bound to happen only because of the vehicle type.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by gthang

Maybe you mean Oil is mined also. A small percentage of global production comes from strip mining of tar sands. Mostly done in the very progressive country of Canada.

Guess the Lithium deposits in Afghanistan was just coincidental.

No such thing as"Clean energy". Everybody's a little dirty.

Cheers

Ride Safe

Off course, no one denies, we need to look for alternatives to ICE which best fits our renewable future and EVs fit there perfectly. No matter what we do an ICE can never be cleaner, no matter how renewable your electricity is an ICE is still polluting.

Will anyone here accept if I say, we need to use public transport from tomorrow. As someone said there is no 0 and 1, the search is for near 0.

[LordSharan]

Originally Posted by ebonho

75% of India's electricity comes from ... COAL

India's 60% electricity comes from fossil fuels and 51.7% from Coal (Link). If you are still worried for source of energy, you can get a solar grid and use the electricity generated to charge the vehicle.

but I digress.

The primary thing that EVs miss right now is the theatrics that petrol 2 wheelers have. The joy of revving a 4cyl honda or insanity that a ducati panigale v4s is.

Realistically, the range factor can be achieved given the improvements in battery pack over iterations and evolution along time.

Think the drama can never be recreated.

[CarNerd]

I think we should have a choice between ICEs and EVs and nobody should force the other to choose one of them. No technology is green enough for almost 8 billion people on earth. If one really cares about environment, he should stop using electric vehicles and start riding bicycles or horses. Imagine someone forcing us to do that!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by LordSharan

India's 60% electricity comes from fossil fuels and 51.7% from Coal (Link). If you are still worried for source of energy, you can get a solar grid and use the electricity generated to charge the vehicle.

but I digress.

The primary thing that EVs miss right now is the theatrics that petrol 2 wheelers have. The joy of revving a 4cyl honda or insanity that a ducati panigale v4s is.

Realistically, the range factor can be achieved given the improvements in battery pack over iterations and evolution along time.

Think the drama can never be recreated.

Generation of Thermal Power from Raw Coal

In India, power is generated from conventional (Thermal, Nuclear & Hydro) and renewable sources (Wind, Solar, Biomass etc.). However, Major production of Electricity is achieved through coal a thermal power plant which is around 75% of the total power generation. India’s total power generation in Dec 2020 stood at 103.66 billion units, according to data realised by the Central Electricity Authority.

https://coal.nic.in/en/major-statist...-from-raw-coal

Coal's share in India's power mix hits highest in over two years

This year seasonal factors have limited output of renewables, including hydro electricity, which are weather dependent, helping coal's share to rebound

Reuters Updated: April 08, 2021, 20:02 IST

CHENNAI: Coal's share in India's electricity generation rose to the highest level in at least nine quarters during the first three months of 2021, government data showed, reversing a trend of renewable energy gaining at coal's expense.

The share of renewable energy rose in 2020 when overall power demand was reduced by lockdowns to limit the pandemic.

This year seasonal factors have limited output of renewables, including hydro electricity, which are weather dependent, helping coal's share to rebound.

The share of coal and lignite rose to 78.9% during the quarter ending March 31, compared with 75.9% in the same period last year, a Reuters analysis of daily load despatch data from the federal grid regulator POSOCO showed.

Coal's contribution to India's annual electricity generation fell for the second straight year in 2020, the data shows, marking a departure from decades of growth in coal-fired power.

A consistent rise in the share of renewables culminated in coal's share in electricity generation falling below 60% for the first time in decades on Aug. 12.

Just over five months later, coal's contribution to daily power output rose to more than 80% for the first time in at least 750 days on Jan. 20, a feat that was repeated nine more times to March 31, the data showed.

Recovery in coal-fired generation coincided with India's overall electricity demand returning to growth: the country's power demand and share of coal-fired power rose for seven straight months starting September, POSOCO data showed.

India's annual electricity demand fell for the first time in at least 35 years in the fiscal year to March, with electricity consumption declining for six straight months ending August.

https://energy.economictimes.indiati...years/81971198

[mugen_pinaki27]

I personally feel that EV's are the way. I'm inclined to get an e-scooter for running errands and general commuting within city limits. However, for inter-city travel, not at the moment. The range anxiety is too much for me, honestly. That said, I'm a believer in technology that is game-changing. And EV's are doing that.

In hindsight, came across this interesting article while stalking Lewis Hamilton on the web . Quite a revelation indeed!
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...rts-the-planet

[mugen_pinaki27]

Originally Posted by sreeharipv

Oil is a mineral that is taken from earth, ergo mined. You should look up the environmental impact of shale gas and tar sands mining. Even if you don't consider any of that, Lithium and Cobalt aren't immediately burnt away within days of mining them only to be replaced by more mined minerals. These material live for ever once they are mined out of earth. That makes an infinite difference.

I did not know about the infinite recyclability of these metals. Very fascinating indeed That's one step towards a less polluted world. Small drops make the ocean, isn't it?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by mugen_pinaki27

I did not know about the infinite recyclability of these metals. Very fascinating indeed That's one step towards a less polluted world. Small drops make the ocean, isn't it?

What is still very nascent and a complete unknown is the medical short medium and long-term impact on the human body of constant exposure in a closed environment to such giant batteries.

And it is something that will likely come to light (if ever it is allowed to) only 40-50 years from now. After at least 2 generations of human guinea pigs have field tested these "green" revolutions ....

Please read up on GBM and mobile devices and towers if interested.

[aniyo]

I don't remember the last time I drove my own bike. Possibly 2014 or something. Last 7 years have been car for me and will be so in the near future.

I do feel the lack of a 2 wheeler when doing regular household purchase and for this I will without doubt by an EV. For me a 50km range will do

I say that again I don't see myself buying a ICE 2 wheeler again. I bet there are many like me who will buy the EV just for short occasional runs

[Magnaspectre]

Well, I too do not know how many times these metals can be recycled. But, as things stand now, the reality is very different.

Quoting the BBC article I shared earlier, ""The current method of simply shredding everything and trying to purify a complex mixture results in expensive processes with low value products," says Andrew Abbott, a physical chemist at the University of Leicester. As a result, it costs more to recycle them than to mine more lithium to make new ones. Also, since large scale, cheap ways to recycle Li batteries are lagging behind, only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste."

It also has other pit falls. Again, quoting from the same article: " It takes 500,000 gallons (2,273,000 litres) of water to mine one tonne of lithium. In Chile's Atacama Salt Flats, lithium mining has been linked to declining vegetation, hotter daytime temperatures and increasing drought conditions in national reserve areas. So even though EVs may help reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions over their lifetime, the battery that powers them starts its life laden with a large environmental footprint."

Battery recycling and battery technology (cleaner batteries) are still far away. Also, government legislation to make it mandatory for EV manufacturers to recycle batteries is also required.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...wered-question

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Magnaspectre

only about 5% of Li batteries are recycled globally, meaning the majority are simply going to waste."

Could be because, we are not recycling our phone and laptop batteries, most EV batteries are still inside the cars.

" It takes 500,000 gallons (2,273,000 litres) of water to mine one tonne of lithium.

How much water is used to mine(or extract) one tonne of table salt? The water in lithium brine pools are toxic for human consumption.

In Chile's Atacama Salt Flats, lithium mining has been linked to declining vegetation, hotter daytime temperatures and increasing drought conditions in national reserve areas.

Could be because of having more brine pools to evaporate water, but still far far better than drilling for oil.

Battery recycling and battery technology (cleaner batteries) are still far away. Also, government legislation to make it mandatory for EV manufacturers to recycle batteries is also required.

Tesla is already able to extract 92% of the materials from old batteries, yes better ways and legislations are always welcome.

[Electromotive]

Yet another EV thread that devolved into a debate about environmental impact. The very existence of every human, every vehicle - be it ICE or EV - has an impact on the ecosystem. To quote from The Expanse - "We had a garden and we paved it over".

No Indian has any right to preach about environmental impact of ICE or EV when we can't even get our municipalities and govt.s to facilitate proper handling and disposal of garbage. Those morons go and burn garbage releasing harmful chemicals that ultimately reaches all of us and other organisms, slowly but surely poisoning everything.

This, for obvious reasons, will not sit well with a lot of people but sometimes I think pandemics and wars are a necessity and should be allowed to run their course. Regular culling of humanity is good for our species and the planet. After all, it was the black plague that brought about the renaissance and the scientific revolution. Easier said when one is not on the receiving end of it but I would rather welcome death than dying a slow death from ingesting poisoned air, water and food.

[Vikram9193]

Between electric cycles, electric scooters and electric motorcycles, its the motorcycles that are least interesting for reasons of range and lack of sound. The electric cycles are a revelation - try one and you’ll want one.

I currently have an Ola scooter booked for short rides to Mussoorie (sorry plains people with your junk miles to mountain miles ratios, all our miles are mountain miles here ).

I agree that for longer rides into the mountains, ICE or maybe hydrogen bikes might be interesting. JCB has a Diesel engine modded to run on hydrogen, no fuel cell or electric motor needed.

In my ideal world urban commuting will be more of electric cycles and Renault Twizy and Carver style four/three wheel vehicles that don’t hog space on the road and provide stability and protection from the elements. These vehicles will be light and fun to zip around in, in a way that the bigger electric vehicles might not be.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

For that, good old ICE bikes to the rescue. I hear you'll run into battery issues in sub zero temperatures with Li-ion batteries. So, these wont be reliable ride for the Himalayas.

But I've never been to the mountains up north. The south's kept me satisfied so far. There's still many things of interest for me here.

Back in 2018 we went on a trip to Himalayas to spiti valley and got stuck in small town called Kaza for 3 days straight because there was no fuel in the pump. Some road leading to the place was blocked and the fuel truck couldn't get there for 2 days. But after the truck arrived we still couldn't get fuel on the 3rd day because- guess what? There was no electricity in the town to pump the gas from the underground tanks

So , on that trip, may be one would have been better off with an ev where we could have charged the bike overnight and said goodbye to my mates on ice bikes?may be but we had no regrets about getting stuck there for 3 days as we got to experience the sweet hospitality of the locals and witness how tough life was there and how hardy the men, women and children had to be just to get through the day, which us City folks just take for granted. Errr...what was the topic we were discussing again?