[shancz]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I've also been waiting for TVS to make a bigger RTR or dual purpose.

I have been waiting for the RTR 310 too but BMW took that piece of the pie. Still hopeful though

I took the liberty of moving our discussion to a new thread (this) since I felt we were dragging the previous thread off topic.

Let's zero in on your bike here, mine is a different story altogether which is OT for this thread

Originally Posted by ebonho

I don't see a better bike globally in the sub half liter segment, forget India.

Absolutely, want power that's it.


The OP has mentioned bikes like the Gixxer 250, FZ25, CB300R also service different requirements.
For someone who wants a do it all bike not as frantic and expensive as the 390, the Gixxer250 and FZ25 make a decent options. The CB300R would appeal to a different set of requirements and so on

And since its motorcycles the feeling matters the most regardless of the specs.

Looking forward to what fellow members think.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by shancz

Absolutely, want power that's it

The OP has mentioned bikes like the Gixxer 250, FZ25, CB300R also service different requirements.
For someone who wants a do it all bike not as frantic and expensive as the 390, the Gixxer250 and FZ25 make a decent options. The CB300R would appeal to a different set of requirements and so on

And since its motorcycles the feeling matters the most regardless of the specs.

Looking forward to what fellow members think.

Then the word "enthusiast" does not fit in the title.

Urban jungle sensible all-rounder maybe?

Incidentally, we zeroed in on the Suzuki 250 SF for my son. In silver. He loves it. I loved it.

The Dominar was the final face off we tested multiple times against it. Neither of us liked it. Too rough. Too heavy. Too stiff and top heavy unwieldy. Do t know wfwre all the on paper power was but I sure did not feel it And we ride two different bikes, at two different dealers. So it was not bike specific.

Cheers, Doc

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by shancz

I took the liberty of moving our discussion to a new thread (this) since I felt we were dragging the previous thread off topic.

Let's zero in on your bike here, mine is a different story altogether which is OT for this thread

I just wanted to make some observations (and shoot the breeze) on suzuki bikes in our discussion, considering you seemed to be a suzuki appreciator yourself, and more so for owning a piece of the suzuki Fiero legacy in the form of the RTR. Looks like I somehow managed to get the discussion turned towards my personal bike search though I didn't mean for that.

Thanks for taking the call to trim the fat off that thread. And I appreciate your and ebonho's inputs in helping me with my bike search. Although it ultimately boils down to "Which bike is closer to a theoretical Suzuki GS250R?" So, I don't know how useful this topic of discussion will be at large.

I don't know how many people are in the same situation as me and consider buying one or two small-capacity bikes in 2022 as possibly their last ICE purchase. Seems like an interesting topic to discuss though.

I'm guessing not many, since I'm someone who buys and commits to the purchase long term, and I'm not interested for the life of me in big bikes. So, I may have a screw loose somewhere. But I'm definitely curious to hear what members here think about when their last ICE purchase will be, considering the EVs are coming and small capacity ICE vehicles, atleast the commuter class, may possibly drop dead within just a couple of years if the development of the electric infrastructure picks up pace.

So, allow me to frame the topic in that respect in a new thread. Let's close this one.

----

[shancz]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Then the word "enthusiast" does not fit in the title.

Depends on some factors IMO :
1. purchasing capacity : isn't constant for everyone, so someone picking up a 160cc like the RTR or Xtreme over the CB Shine for the performance is an enthusiast in my books.
But I agree the definition is subjective.

2. preferences : Someone getting a Classic 350 instead of the more powerful Dominar or someone getting a RR310 over the RC390 though closely priced doesn't make the RR guy less of an enthusiast, just different people having different riding preferences, IMHO.

Does it make sense or have I misunderstood the concept ?

Originally Posted by ebonho

Too rough. Too heavy. Too stiff and top heavy unwieldy.

Agree on the stiff and top heavy but probably I didn't feel it to be too rough since my benchmarks are lower but its not coming close to the Hondas/Yamahas/Suzukis for sure.

Originally Posted by i_rock098

I think the RTR can do 80-100 easily and don't see the need of a bigger engine to go faster since that is against the law.

I am afraid easily has to be defined
The RTR 180 will leave your fingers tingling if you do 80 for 2 hours straight. That's why I said the nature of the bike is very important.

As for larger capacity, there's a big difference between riding/cruising at 7000rpm and 5000rpm if you have to ride for 10hrs a day. Not to forget the additional safety of reserve power.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by shancz

Agree on the stiff and top heavy but probably I didn't feel it to be too rough since my benchmarks are lower but its not coming close to the Hondas/Yamahas/Suzukis for sure.

The innate hunger for power and cubic capacity in me (for the money spent) made me really want to like the Dominar (compared to the smaller less powerful but sexier looking Suzuki).

My son sadly nixed the idea of an R15 (having already nixed the KTMs as too frantic and cramped for his taste ... he's a tall guy at 6'4").

So even after the first ride on a black Dominar left me really unimpressed (we went to the Suzuki dealer and rode the SF immediately after that ... up a nice twisty tekdi (small in-city hillock) road, we went a few days later after i lined up another Dominar test ride at another dealer. Same story. No connect with the road. And when I say rough I mean in comparison to how my KTMs build revs. Through the hands. And ass.

Maybe it's a great tourer at a price. And has straight line performance. But really for me there is just so much more to a bike.

Cheers, Doc

[shancz]

Originally Posted by ebonho

But really for me there is just so much more to a bike.

Golden words
Dominar isn't even close to the KTM in how it feels despite being close in engine parameters and like you rightly said there's ao much more.

On a side note I never felt in-sync with the 390Duke(2014) especially at slower speeds, it just didn't connect like the RTR did. But that's difficult to quantify and in the end a personal preference.

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

1. "Which bike is closer to a theoretical Suzuki GS250R?"
2. I'm not interested for the life of me in big bikes.
3. So, allow me to frame the topic in that respect in a new thread. Let's close this one.

1. Gixxer 250 and FZ25, in sequence is your best bet IMO.
2. Interested I am, afford I can't
3. Absolutely and agree, do share your experience when you ride the Gixxer.

[Sudarshan42]

Love this thread, and drt_rdr you're certainly not the only one facing this dilemma!

Rode the FZ25, Gixxer 250 and RTR200 back to back one day, and for some reason loved the FZ25 over the others. That peak torque of 20nm at 4000rpm, and the gearing/sprocket setup gives you a giddy start at least till 60. I was left buzzing (in a good way) after the TD, something that was lacking with the other 2 (no doubt capable) machines. Do give it a try.

These days I'm also gravitating towards more comfortable city commuters like the XPulse 200. Will give that a try someday.

The argument around what constitutes an 'enthusiast' is an interesting one. My personal take is that it is more a mindset than one based on cubic capacity. We see threads of folks restoring old Chetaks and Hero Puchs with such great attention to detail; in my eyes, they are definitely hardened enthusiasts! We also see the younger crowd racing away on narrow city streets on modified Honda Dios- not that I condone such behaviour, but there surely is an enthusiast's spark somewhere underneath those hooligan shenanigans

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan42

Love this thread, and drt_rdr you're certainly not the only one facing this dilemma!

Just when drt_rdr was wondering how useful his hunt would be

Originally Posted by Sudarshan42

for some reason loved the FZ25 over the others. That peak torque of 20nm at 4000rpm,

I had got a very similar review from a friend for a comfortable city+ bike and like you he was swayed by the XPulse's comfort. Hasn't booked it yet but in a few months time and only after TDing the 4V since his TD was on the 2V.

Originally Posted by Sudarshan42

My personal take is that it is more a mindset than one based on cubic capacity.

Bullseye and well said

[VijayAnand1]

Now, this question itself is sketchy. The gamut is wide to precisely pin it to one or two motorcycles. Remember, each motorcycle is a different archetype to the one that it's being compared to. And each motorcycle gives a unique buzz to the rider, which is predominantly defined by a given rider's riding style, ethics of usage, TLC and what not. But here's what I would list as Greatest Indian Performance Dig with what the generation of yesterday had to offer, especially 2 strokes.

These are purely my personal opine of having driven these following motorcycles, and hence the comparo

D390 the old gen = RD350
Why? Purely for the post 6k madness both the bikes offer. Both can kill you in a jiffy if you don't know what you're doing. The way the D390 throws you off saddle, post 7k RPM is a surge and rush unlike any other. Leave the bars at that speed, and the bike will slide right under you, while one sits in the air like Wile. E. Coyote and trust me you don't want to be in that position.

CBR250R
The silent menace to be reckoned with. Having owned and parted ways with it. The first time I rode this machine, I remember everything around my periphery disappearing to a blur. The bike masks its speed fantastically and calmly. Unless one notices the speedo, one never knows what speed he/she would be cruising at. Many a times I'd be doing 110+ and it'd always feel like 75-80-ish, a splendid machine with fantastic NISSIN brakes that still has no match in the category to this day. ABS calibrated so beautifully that the pulses would be like a gentle wind kissing your cheeks.

Yamaha R15
Needless to say, a thorough legend in its category, which can give nightmares to bikes upto 200cc and even some 250cc. With an engine that can rev to stratosphere, and with the right hands, can decimate anyone's ego in a jiffy. It's a Yamaha, and I always wonder how Yamaha stuffed so much in such a tight package. A fantastic handler, superb brakes after the CBR 250R, a gem of an engine. In simple terms, a bike that's not be messed with needlessly to show one's CC prowess, especially in the twisties. In my case, I have had my ego made to kneel with this one.

Pulsar 220 aka The Workhorse.
The bike I was very proud to own from my first job and pay, needless to say a cheap power for the masses.. with style. With a comfortable riding stance, enough power to get you into trouble, those were the days it was ruling the roost for me inside the town and highways. I am surprised how Bajaj has engineered this bike even after decades of its first iteration, it still impresses with a unique styling and an engine character that is so raw, vibey and rattley, yet it still manages to make you turn and look at the bike each time you turn the ignition key off. A thorough Indian workhorse that did its job well.

Apache RTR200.
The bike that comes very close to the R15 in terms of handling and brakes. I'd had only a brief ride and experience with this bike. Very much impressed with the handling, sharp brakes, fantastic Continental sourced ABS. Highways are a straining to say the least, it revs faster, harder, but that's it.

RS 200/NS200,F250,Gixxer250= Duke200
These are all great bikes, especially the F250 with a fantastic low end torque that'd break traction given the wrong road conditions. Loved the taller The Gixxer 250F is another great one, with almost the same feel as the F250, I didn't find no difference. The NS200/RS200s I ain't a big fan of those overdone body and an engine that was more or less a KTM 200 rip-off. I can go on and on, on the nuances and the pros and cons, but would it matter?

Ninja 300

Needless to say, a motor setup that thrums like a heart beat, my short ride on this lasted approx 40 KM, lucky enough to do both the flats and the ghats. A great bike to tour and own, has that Ninja sticker to it that would attract eyeballs wherever you go. A special machine. Will I own one? Hell no. These are the bikes that are great to ride occasionally, get that rush and give it to its respected owner. Not a long term bike, at least here in India, IMHO.

Yamaha R3.
Whenever I ride this bike, I feel as though I am sailing a ship and me at the stern, weaving through the waves, such was the first ride impression I had with that front fairing and mirror setup. Give it the whack and boy, this thing means business. A fine motor that comes to its own in the highways. Handling is neutral, not as sharp but not all slack. Brakes were a disappointment, headlights were a farce, but I still if there's a bike I'd like to own and keep it for as long as I can, that would be this bike.

Honorary Mention.
The NEW PULSAR F/N250 Twins.


Come what may, many manufacturers can upgrade their stickering kit, add a few electronic gizmos and upgrade the oomph. Having had the opportunity to test ride them. One word! Boy oh boy, how long has Bajaj come! Having owned the 220F, circa 2012-2017 period. Having ridden the newer garbages in the form of NS/RS and whatever S's. This is a genuine and fantastic upgrade/product for anyone in the look out in the 250cc category.

Smooth engine almost on par with the Gixxer 250F, excellent build quality, comfy and cushy seats and clean lighting setup. Light years away from the cheap-crap build of the regular Pulsar series, especially the 220F. Examining the bike closely, I see, a lot of improvement in wiring harness wraps, bolt quality, fiber panel integrity. A simple, no frills, no gizmo, true to the Pulsar relish and DNA, they've delivered it in style. See, Bajaj took its time, but delivered a slap-boxing so tight on the face of other manufacturers with this 250, it would take years for them to recover with the current snail pace at the quarter liter segment. Overall, a supreme VFM and affordable 250 that can do whatever you throw at it.

If you've come till this far, I appreciate your patience in taking the time to read my experience and why I'd consider these bikes with good ICE in the market now w.r.t to performance.


Cheers!
VJ

[PrasannaDhana]

In my opinion, these two motorcycles are among the best enthusiast IC engine bikes under 400 cc(let's cut some slack for the R3 w.r.t displacement)



The RC390 & R3

One is a hard-core corner carver and another is a terrific tourer. Both topping the power figures of the sub 400 cc segment. RC390 is the perfect upgrade over the R15 and the R3 is the perfect upgrade over the CBR250R, ie, if one has a limited budget and wants to stay within 400cc.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

These are purely my personal opine of having driven these following motorcycles, and hence the comparo

Very well put

Here's a list from my preferences :

- R15 : the true blue small capacity "sports bike" still retains its original traits.

- RTR 200 4V : with adjustable suspension and riding modes because a chance to play around with these at that price point should not be missed
- XPulse 200 : only because we're treating this ADV as a comfortable city bike with off road abilities

- Pulsar F/N 250 :
- FZ25 :
- Gixxer 250/SF :

- RR 310 : just look at it, good performance, excellent electronics and instruments, just look at it
- Dominar 400 : the VFM quotient and a balanced performer in that segment with good touring potential
- 390 Duke : the king of performance and the entry point to superbike ownership, IMO

I have kept the Retro/Classic/ADV away since they're somewhat a niche segment and not many options unlike the ones above.

[saitvsk23]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

CBR250R
The silent menace to be reckoned with. Having owned and parted ways with it. The first time I rode this machine, I remember everything around my periphery disappearing to a blur. The bike masks its speed fantastically and calmly. Unless one notices the speedo, one never knows what speed he/she would be cruising at. Many a times I'd be doing 110+ and it'd always feel like 75-80-ish, a splendid machine with fantastic NISSIN brakes that still has no match in the category to this day. ABS calibrated so beautifully that the pulses would be like a gentle wind kissing your cheeks.

The reason I bought a pre-owned CBR250R is mainly because of 3 things : the engine, the reliability and the looks.

The 249.6cc engine is smooth enough to just let you know that its working. I use it mainly in the city, so its got a lot of usable power. 2nd gear, 3rd gear, speed breaker at 30kmph, not a problem. All of my peers have preferred the Austrians when it comes to their choice of rides, but I always stick to the Japs. The cam chain tensioner and the shims are something to watch out for though, they can spoil your auditory experience. That job on mine is pending.
Also, I'm a heavy-build person, and not proud to say that my weight has crossed the century-mark. Yet when I rode it hard, it touched a speedo-indicated 120kmph. With a pillion of a similar build and myself riding the CBR, it can maintain speeds upto 105/110kmph. That's as far as I have used it till date.

Coming to the reliability. its a no-brainer. Thrash it, burn it, throw it, abandon it, it'll still fire up to life as long as its got air, fuel and a good spark.

It's a Honda.

And for the looks, timeless I say. As said in a Power To The Rider video (that was PowerDrift before it was called PowerDrift), its a CBR which borrows its looks from the VFR1200F. Didn't make much sense when being compared to a Ninja 250. Regardless, I was smitten by the dual-tone cherry red and silver colour scheme as a 10 year old. Bought it when I turned 18. Don't regret it a bit. My only problem is that it's used less frequently as I stay in a hostel. Had prepped it for storage and stored it away. My dad fires it up twice a week and takes it out for a spin on a sunday.

There are a lot of CBR's popping up in the used market today. I've seen a few for 40k too. Regardless of whatever condition it is, remember the fact that it's a Honda. A little bit of elbow grease and some money can put a wide-a** grin plastered to your face. That was my reaction the first time I had ridden it. The sheer amount of power in your control. It's just amazing.

Get an experienced mechanic to look up on your ride, gift her some nice grippy shoes, oil her up well with the best of oils, and treat her well like a woman, and she'll take you high on the waves of motorcycling every time.
Its very, very inexpensive these days to have fun on 2 wheels (putting aside the exorbitant pricing of fuels). Especially on such machines which still have got good support in metropolitan cities (Hyderabad in my case), it's an amazing step into the world of safe and fun motorcycling.

My simplest advice to new/beginner riders who are eager to enter into the world of riding: Consider these gems. Put a little money into it, invest on safer riding gear and go nuts on these crotch-rockets. You can realise how much fun can be had on these things, on a budget. There's a lot of life left in these marvellous pieces of Japanese engineering. There's absolutely no need to invest a 6-figure amount on a brand-spanking new ride, just to show off to your peers that you've got that greens and can ride. And in the process, you'll understand how your machine works, get to know its limits and stay safe. Save up the money and maybe, plan trips with your riding buddies. Create memories that last for a lifetime.

Please note the fact that all of this is coming from a 19-year old motorcycle nut, who lives and breathes motorcycles right from 00:00, maggi-consuming, broke-at-end-of-month engineering graduate. I'm definitely not a seasoned rider (I aspire to be one though).



I'm so sorry to hijack this thread, but that's what I feel for this gem of a motorcycle.

A few pictures, for your viewing pleasure.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by saitvsk23

The reason I bought a pre-owned CBR250R is mainly because of 3 things : the engine, the reliability and the looks.

I'm so sorry to hijack this thread, but that's what I feel for this gem of a motorcycle.

A few pictures, for your viewing pleasure.

Nothing to be sorry about. I really enjoyed your post. It struck a chord.

I too am a thrifty biker who loves bringing second hand bikes to factory shining spec and keeping them that way for years.

Decades even (Doppie will turn 20 in October this year). Yup I'm that old.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. The passing away of the brilliant CBR 250r left a huge void in our biking space that only recently got filled by a worthy successor in the Gixxer 250 SF. Both are quintessential Japanese refinement and power delivery. And the Suzuki keeps its tradition of butter slick gearboxes alive - bike or car.

[PrasannaDhana]

Originally Posted by saitvsk23

The reason I bought a pre-owned CBR250R is mainly .....
A few pictures, for your viewing pleasure.

Originally Posted by ebonho

I too am a thrifty biker who loves bringing second hand bikes to factory shining spec and keeping them that way for years.

P.S. The passing away of the brilliant CBR 250r left a huge void in our biking space that only recently got filled by a worthy successor in the Gixxer 250 SF. Both are quintessential Japanese refinement and power delivery. And the Suzuki keeps its tradition of butter slick gearboxes alive - bike or car.

As an ex- owner of a pre-owned CBR250R, I completely agree with both of you. There isn't a better bike to upgrade to, specially if one is coming from a 150cc segment motorcycle or if one is a beginner.



CBR250R is an adequate motorcycle. Completely satisfies the needs of a rider who wants to tour at triple digit speeds comfortably.

But it is one easy bike to outgrow. One ride on the first gen Duke 390 was all it took me to realize how lethargic (comparatively, sorry they should not be compared ) CBR was.

I bought the little Honda for 75k INR, enjoyed it for 1 year & 14000 km and sold it for 60k INR. Put in another 40k to buy another pre-owned first gen Duke 390 after that. Both the bikes were brilliant, in their own way.

One thing that CBR trumps any KTM will be in its absolute reliability (and comfort)

[saitvsk23]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

As an ex- owner of a pre-owned CBR250R, I completely agree with both of you. There isn't a better bike to upgrade to, specially if one is coming from a 150cc segment motorcycle or if one is a beginner.

Attachment 2254899

CBR250R is an adequate motorcycle. Completely satisfies the needs of a rider who wants to tour at triple digit speeds comfortably.

But it is one easy bike to outgrow. One ride on the first gen Duke 390 was all it took me to realize how lethargic (comparatively, sorry they should not be compared ) CBR was.

I bought the little Honda for 75k INR, enjoyed it for 1 year & 14000 km and sold it for 60k INR. Put in another 40k to buy another pre-owned first gen Duke 390 after that. Both the bikes were brilliant, in their own way.

One thing that CBR trumps any KTM will be in its absolute reliability (and comfort)

The first-gen Dukes are absolute HOOLIGANS! My cousin was gifted a 2014 Duke 200 when he turned 16. I had ridden that inside a gated community, a few months before I had bought my CBR. It scared the pants off me! The rear set footpegs made me feel like I was about to slide off from the seat and rest onto the tank anytime. Mad, mad acceleration it had.

The CBR was a direct step-up from my dad's commuter. When I wanted to buy a bike for myself, we had considered a lot of 150cc beauties. As I had described my build in my previous post, me and my dad felt that these 150's wouldn't have the surge I would be looking for. Hence we settled for the CBR, which was co-incidentally also the first big-looking bike I had ever seen on a showroom floor.

I had bought mine for an amount so low, you could buy a used Honda Shine with it. Maybe the previous owner wanted to get rid of it, said he wanted to upgrade to a dominar 400. This was just when the BS6 units started reaching the dealerships. There's almost 10k worth of work pending on it and a good pair of shoes too.

I sincerely wish that HMSI opens its eyes, look at the lineage the CBR had left all along, and follow it up with a CBR300R (which USA and Japan had got after they had discointinued the 250), or even the CBR250RR, which definitely is going to become a hit in the Malaysian Market (its similar to our enthusiast market).
I don't even want the flashiest of the instrument clusters, or the flashiest of graphics. Honda makes well-built, absolutely functional motorcycles and that's what they should be doing. If they're happy with the sales numbers of Activa, that's not gonna cut it out for them. They are the best when it comes to over-pricing and bringing no-purpose products (CB200X being the latest).

These global companies should see that there is a slow decline in the commuter market, and the youth are preferring better equipped motorcycles to the bland 110 or the 125cc's.