[Dhruv Shetty]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Dhruv, the updates have been timely and glad to see the chassis being given some much needed TLC. Since you talked to Vignesh (the ZENNGINE) guy, did you by any chance talk to him about the oil consumption? If yes, would like to know his perspective..

As usual, a wonderful hearty log.

Cheers!
VJ

Looks like my engine is throwing signs of a possible engine rebuild , occasionally it is throwing smoke from the exhaust and when touch the inner exhaust tip the finger is black. Sometimes on cold starts there is white smoke for a minute and disappears, rest of the time it's either no smoke or smokes for more than a minute or two. Reason I named the bike Tali (it's characters name in a game, but in the current situation I refer it to drunkard ) and nickname smokey. The wierd thing is, the engine performs with its maniac nature, pulls smoothly when letting of the clutch without any throttle input. Plus I make it a point, whenever it start it after 8 hours, to let it sit on idle for a minute or two for all the oil circulate around the engine, then ride for a few KMs on relaxed R.P.Ms till the oil is at optimal temperature and then start riding how it is meant to be ridin. The last thing I can think of which is causing this oil burning and smoke is, almost 2 years back I used Liqui Moly 15W 50 engine oil and after that used engine flush, which must have done some damage to the piston rings and lastly it could be the current crop of Motul 7100, I have heard that the quality has dropped which is causing this issue. In the next service I will be switching to Maxima or Putoline to see if there is such oil burning or not, if the same problem appears then time to save up for a engine rebuild which will be the most expensive repair I have done on the bike the ABS pump work was the most expensive one until now which was just shy of 30k, talking about engine rebuild, Zain told me somewhere in March 2022 that start saving up for a engine rebuild and a year before that he told the chain sprocket needs replacement, so most of his predictions are true.

Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Dhruv Shetty

Looks like my engine is throwing signs of a possible engine rebuild

Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.

The moment I saw your drain volume, if you recall I instantly told you rings.

Please still consider what I recommended, before doing a full strip down expensive rebuild (which is simply wasteful, if your cylinder liner and piston still has life and thousands of further kilometres of use in them).

Do a compression test. Check the clearances. Accordingly, check for oversize rings. And give that one try at least. With or without honing of your cylinder wall (I do not know whether these new age Nikasil liners can or should be plateau honed like we do for our Bullets ... but defer to Zain's expertise on this).

I just made a post on the big 390 thread about my post Sikkim service. See the drain volume in that. 1150 ml. Add another 100-150 ml in the filter. That's 1300 ml. And we filled in 1 litre and a half in both our bikes (Duke 390 and Z800) at Siliguri. So the distance would be around 3000 odd kilometres from there. So about 200 ml in 3000 kilometres of highway speed riding with luggage. About 70 ml per 1000 kilometres. Not great, but not so bad either.





Cheers, Doc

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by ebonho

With or without honing of your cylinder wall (I do not know whether these new age Nikasil liners can or should be plateau honed like we do for our Bullets ... but defer to Zain's expertise on this).

Cheers, Doc

Old liners of the bygone era were fun to work with, easy to to be tinkered with, played with. The coated liners of today's aluminum head on "high-performance all aluminum engines i.e. of KTM, Yamaha R15, Apache RR310 and the likes are, once a cylinder is scored/scratched/seized, you throw it away and get a new block piston kit. These blocks shouldn't be used with a liner unlike the oldies of yore and if someone did, they won't reach their home no matter how hard they try.

Originally Posted by Dhruv Shetty

Looks like my engine is throwing signs of a possible engine rebuild , occasionally it is throwing smoke from the exhaust and when touch the inner exhaust tip the finger is black. Sometimes on cold starts there is white smoke for a..The last thing I can think of which is causing this oil burning and smoke is, almost 2 years back I used Liqui Moly 15W 50 engine oil and after that used engine flush, which must have done some damage to the piston rings and lastly it could be the current crop of Motul 7100...is predictions are true.

Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.

If you were able to discern the smoke between actual "smelly" smoke to water vapor, then we have trouble. But, not all is an engine strip down for white smoke. Engine flushes sometimes clear off the carbon deposited around the rings and makes the tolerances bigger, leading to white smoke which otherwise wouldn't have shown any symptoms. Slow oil burn at high rpm, this is extremely detrimental. Usually, how it goes unnoticed is when we start riding the bike at high rpm yet steadily the ring tolerances increase, oil squeezes past the rings, gets burnt and eventually leading to seizure.

You would have seen many Activas, Unicorns and what not heavily smoking.. their way to glory, blazing past you yet the rider doesn't know a thing, this is how engine seizure occurs, till the last drop of engine oil is consumed the engine works hard. Sad!

Rather than a compression check, a leak down test is super spot on. A leak down test is a sure-shot way to eliminate any leaks not only past the rings, but also any leaks in and around the engine head/valve train, especially helping isolate failing valves, seats, oil seals etc. An engine would burn oil not only if a ring is oversize, but also leaky/faulty/burnt intake or exhaust valves which would mean oil would directly enter the combustion chamber which is the worse type of burn which causes excessive carbon deposits, increased engine oil consumption.

Motul 7100 is a decent enough oil and in fact KTM recommends the same. Once an engine starts burning oil, it will eventually burn or even worse on different brands. Engine oil cannot be solely pointed as the sole antagonist, but a combination of different factors including oil can actually be an accelerated causal.

All said and done, get a leak-down done ASAP and that shall yield us perfect diagnosis. Good luck.


Cheers!
VJ

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

All said and done, get a leak-down done ASAP and that shall yield us perfect diagnosis. Good luck.


Cheers!
VJ

Thanks Vijay. Even while typing it, I actually meant a leak-down test, though my bet is still on shot rings on a poorly runin bike, going by what Dhruv has been telling us about its history. Thanks for the correction.

Coming back to the liners, I was not talking about new liners at all. But the already heat cycled original factory liner (i do not know if they are heated and pressed in like in our Bullets) with new rings and see if they seal. If they do, chances are you've solved the issue without need for a new cylinder kit.

I'm thinking primarily poorly heat cycled rings that have failed to form a seal against the liner wall in the first instance. In such a case, except for probably some spot glazing (which is why I was thinking in terms of a fresh hone, keeping the same ID, to help the new rings seal), I'm wondering if a trial with new rings would be such a terrible idea?

Rings are softer than the liner wall. If the liner is scored, I agree. The discussion ends there.

Please let me know your thoughts. I'd like to learn more of this newer metallurgy.

Cheers, Doc

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Thanks Vijay. Even while typing it, I actually meant a leak-down test, though my bet is still on shot rings on a poorly runin bike, going by what Dhruv has been telling us about its history. Thanks for the correction.

I'm thinking primarily poorly heat cycled rings that have failed to form a seal against the liner wall in the first instance. In such a case, except for probably some spot glazing (which is why I was thinking in terms of a fresh hone, keeping the same ID, to help the new rings seal), I'm wondering if a trial with new rings would be such a terrible idea?

Rings are softer than the liner wall. If the liner is scored, I agree. The discussion ends there.

Please let me know your thoughts. I'd like to learn more of this newer metallurgy.

Cheers, Doc

Shot rings isn't out of the equation, it can, shall and might be the causal so are the other componentry of the valve train. Secondly, usually mostly any sound mechanic will check the piston/cylinder for wear characteristics and if the valve train mechanism is ruled out to to nick and the ring end gap measured and rings found to be faulty, replacement of the rings in 99% of the cases solves the smoke issue. Contrary to what you've mentioned, rings are harder than the cylinder surface. Rings are case-hardened to prevent wear and maintain a tighter compression.

P.S. I am no metallurgy expert Doc.

Hope it helps!

Cheers!
VJ

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Shot rings isn't out of the equation, it can, shall and might be the causal so are the other componentry of the valve train. Secondly, usually mostly any sound mechanic will check the piston/cylinder for wear characteristics and if the valve train mechanism is ruled out to to nick and the ring end gap measured and rings found to be faulty, replacement of the rings in 99% of the cases solves the smoke issue. Contrary to what you've mentioned, rings are harder than the cylinder surface. Rings are case-hardened to prevent wear and maintain a tighter compression.

Cheers!
VJ

Good! I stand corrected.

So just to be clear then, we are in agreement that a new set of rings "might" solve Dhruv's oil burn issue on the cheap?

If so, definitely worth a try. Even if KTM does not sell rings separately, we could find out the name of the OE supplier (Mahle, Goetz, etc.) and procure them like that directly from a distributor.

Cheers, Doc

[Trex5151]

Originally Posted by Dhruv Shetty

The last thing I can think of which is causing this oil burning and smoke is, almost 2 years back I used Liqui Moly 15W 50 engine oil and after that used engine flush, which must have done some damage to the piston rings and lastly it could be the current crop of Motul 7100, I have heard that the quality has dropped which is causing this issue.

Could be a sheer coincidence, but right after I switched to Liqui moly engine oil along with an engine flush on my 2016 RC 390 with about 30k kms on the odo, the bike started smoking with similar pattern as yours. And that was just the start since the bike started throwing up powertrain issues one after the other eventually leading up to a rebuild. Got rid of the RC and picked up a sparingly used 2016 Duke 390.

[doga]

These KTMs are an acquired taste. Today I was trying to inspect the coolant level in the reservoir. Of course the reservoir inspection window is now almost opaque so popped the cap open and voila- no coolant. I did have a leaky fuel pump seal which was replaced recently. Oil seems to be nice golden colour although only when the filter comes out one can be sure if there is any mixing going on.
Not sure how expensive the rebuild is going to be for Dhruv but surely not too expensive?
One thing I hate about the bike scene is there's no ebay equivalent- one could simply grab a cat N bike's engine in the UK which is being sold as scrap by breakers. Here you go to Kurla and deal with rapscallions!

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by Trex5151

Could be a sheer coincidence, but right after I switched to Liqui moly engine oil along with an engine flush on my 2016 RC 390 with about 30k kms on the odo, the bike started smoking with similar pattern as yours. And that was just the start since the bike started throwing up powertrain issues one after the other eventually leading up to a rebuild. Got rid of the RC and picked up a sparingly used 2016 Duke 390.

A quick YouTube search regarding the engine flush issue yielded this video by Vikas Rachamalla about eight months ago. The symptoms and the causes mentioned are similar to what is observed in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiDm-uRtlyM

[Dhruv Shetty]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Good! I stand corrected.

So just to be clear then, we are in agreement that a new set of rings "might" solve Dhruv's oil burn issue on the cheap?

If so, definitely worth a try. Even if KTM does not sell rings separately, we could find out the name of the OE supplier (Mahle, Goetz, etc.) and procure them like that directly from a distributor.

Cheers, Doc

I will probably go with block piton kit in the future and depending on the internal condition of the engine, plus this particular example of a bike is a neglected example with two owners. Will keep this in mind if only the rings needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Old liners of the bygone era were fun to work with, easy to to be tinkered with, played with.

Motul 7100 is a decent enough oil and in fact KTM recommends the same. Once an engine starts burning oil, it will eventually burn or even worse on different brands. Engine oil cannot be solely pointed as the sole antagonist, but a combination of different factors including oil can actually be an accelerated causal.

All said and done, get a leak-down done ASAP and that shall yield us perfect diagnosis. Good luck.


Cheers!
VJ

Thank you VJ for the input, till i decide what to do with the engine, i will stick with 7100, keep a can on 7100 handy so i dont starve the engine and take care of the engine.

Will keep piston rings as an option.

i will get a leak down test soon and share my findings.

Originally Posted by Trex5151

Could be a sheer coincidence, but right after I switched to Liqui moly engine oil along with an engine flush on my 2016 RC 390 with about 30k kms on the odo, the bike started smoking with similar pattern as yours. And that was just the start since the bike started throwing up powertrain issues one after the other eventually leading up to a rebuild. Got rid of the RC and picked up a sparingly used 2016 Duke 390.

Looks like i am not the only one who faced this issue, now im too deep into the bike financially, so gonna stick and take of her.

Wish you many more happy kilometers with the duke.

Originally Posted by doga

These KTMs are an acquired taste. Today I was trying to inspect the coolant
Not sure how expensive the rebuild is going to be for Dhruv but surely not too expensive?
One thing I hate about the bike scene is there's no ebay equivalent- one could simply grab a cat N bike's engine in the UK which is being sold as scrap by breakers. Here you go to Kurla and deal with rapscallions!

That is true, KTMs are a acquired taste, which needs constant care and timely maintenance and service.

The one fear i have, first: if i do a rebuild the engine loses 1 or 3 HP, came to know this from a fellow 390 owner i met at a ride, second: there may be a chance that the original 2014 heavy engine note will be replaced by lighter 2016 engine note.

Depends how much the rebuild will cost once the engine is opened, the minimum engine rebuild cost 25k and a full quality rebuild is 60k+

Originally Posted by Gordon

A quick YouTube search regarding the engine flush issue yielded this video by Vikas Rachamalla about eight months ago. The symptoms and the causes mentioned are similar to what is observed in this thread.

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=NiDm-uRtlyM

This is a very informative video related to engine flush, which will do more harm than good for an engine.

Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.

[Dhruv Shetty]

Small work done, which was pending for 2 years, decided to get it done before heading out for a long ride, will post about it in detail here on a later date.

Since I have got the bike, there has been some leakage in the gear shaft area, so got it changed today and this becomes the cheapest bill.

Alot had to come out for one seal


New one in and all the bolts torqued down.


Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.

[Dhruv Shetty]

A Spontaneous Year-end ride to a farm house in Malkapur and heavy oil burning


This ride was decided very spontaneously on 10th of December by my uncle to a family farm house in Malkapur, total distance is to and fro 900kms, initial plan was leave on the 23rd and comeback on the 25th, end moment it changed to 22nd departure. So, let’s get on with it.

Day 1 (22 December 2023)

Initial plan was to leave at 3pm in afternoon as my cousin sister just got married just on 16th December, a very busy month. She and her husband’s family wanted to visit everyone on 22nd, but plans changed. With this I was taking my own sweet time to laze and get up by 10 in the morning, but came know I have to leave within an hour and I had some stuff planned out, like get some extra engine oil for trip, as my bike loves to burn oil, with everything changed got ready very calmy because all my stuff was already packed, ready and did the test fitting the previous night.
Left home and made a pitstop at my uncle’s place, had a nice breakfast, suited up, readjusted the bag. First stop as we left, just a kilometre away was fuel and air pitstop, I didn’t bother filing up last night as the traffic from Andheri west to east is horrible in the afternoon. During the fuel up and air time, I realised the rear tyre has a puncture (pointed out by the tyre guy, my attention was on the bike all the while). Got everything done and left. On the way to Kalamboli, the low oil pressure light comes on at Belapur (I should have bought an extra can of oil), stopped on the side to check the oil level, seemed ok and cracked on the journey. Stopped in the outskirts of Pune as I saw garage and asked if they have any 10w 50, but they did not have any, only 10w 40, 20w 50 and 15w 50 were available, the guy was adamant that 10w 40 goes in the 390, took the risk and did the entire ride with low oil pressure, somehow the engine survived the entire trip. Never attempting this ever in my life.

All saddled up


Later on, made some adjustments to the bag, by pushing it more behind so I have some space to move around during the twisties.

The surprise puncture


Stopped at the first toll on the old highway and had a nice strong coffee







Stopped at this nice place just before the canyon section at Satara, this was some tasty spicy missal pav





Need a good spice tolerance to have this Misal pav


Pretty red






Once the Misal pav was gobbled and hitting a fun canyon section, I had to fill fuel as I was on the last bar of petrol (not the reserve one), got separated after this took us a good 1 hour to rendezvous with each other, in this mess I did an extra 20 kms of riding.
In the end finally met up at this hotel called Royal Palace, good food and rooms.



Waited here for a good 40 minutes, contemplating whether to go back or continue forward


Simple clear soup


A wholesome Thali


Got a nice VIP parking at the entrance in the direct view of the CCTV





Had a nice hot water bath, changed into comfy night clothes and off to sleep. End of day 1


Contd

[Dhruv Shetty]

Day 2 (23rd December 2023)

A good view to get up with




A nice amount of dew on the bikes





Taking in the sights before setting off




Woke up with a nice view and chilliness, freshened up, packed up and suited up, we headed down, checked out, loaded the bags on the bikes after wiping of the morning dew from the bikes, it was 16 degrees in the morning don’t know how much during the night. The CB350 started without any drama, but my old lady loves drama at times, it was struggling during cranking and barely holding idle, even by holding the throttle at 10% while starting it was still dying, but as we were going to have breakfast in the neighbouring stall, decided just to somehow reach the spot with some throttle.
Had a hot coffee, Medu vada (sorry no pics, was too invested in eating), in time being did some research and asking about the issue, turns out it was normal for the duke, after breakfast started the bike with 10% percent throttle and rode off, it did struggle for 10 mins at 2nd and 3rd gear at 80Kmph due to the cold, once it reached its optimal temperature there was no problem. The road to Khed consisted of slow-moving traffic due to construction of a highway and road widening, and we overshoot our exit by a good 20kms and reached Kolhapur toll naka. Saw the map and realised we overshot a good 20 kms





Taking a u turn and riding carefully, so we rode carefully by checking the route every 10kms and still overshot again by another 20kms, at this point I took over and during all this overshooting business I burned a lot of fuel, so after I took over the navigation I fuelled up and the correct exit. From this point to the destination, the roads were beautiful long sweeping and tight turns and as usual I run wide, 3 three times and almost running off the road once. Nearing Malkapur town, there is a bridge, where there was a lot of vehicular traffic as it was a long weekend, the traffic concentrated at the junction and there is a temple in the area, us being on 2 wheelers we just slipped through and the people in cars, SUVs and tempo travellers, etc were standing in a long queue frustrated. Stopped at a bakery to get some groceries for the farm house and headed off, the road to the farm house was off-road patch, good road for ADV’s, dirt bikes and even the Tenere 700. Reached the Farm house at 1pm, when in actual the arrival time was 10am.



While waiting and doing some clicking, my uncle arrived.


Had nice fun on the roads, the tyres do the talking


This is the entrance which is used the most in the house. The house may look old at first glance, but it has been constructed and completed in 2022, it has been made in a way to give a rustic look




One of the bedrooms, which we used.



The living room




The bathrooms


The upper floor, the staircase which leads you upstairs






The staircase which leads to the lower floor and the main entrance, there are two more rooms down. Some parts of the house there small windows, which allow sunlight to enter and make it feel airy.




The room on this floor, there is another one


The two pups of the house



Reached, unpacked everything from the bikes, entered and dumped our stuff in the room, freshened up and got down to have a tasty and healthy farm grown food. After lunch, had a small nap in a big cozy bed and woke up an hour later, got out of the bed and headed outside to check out the surroundings of the house, first stop was the construction of the artificial tank, this is the 2nd tank in construction, it will supply water to the surrounding trees and plantation within the land. There is another artificial tank somewhere else which supplies water to the area and it is set up for drip irrigation (will cover this little more later).

The JCB at work




The guy in the JCB came at 9 am and left at 9:30 in the night, this is some dedication, the tank may look small in the pictures, but in real it is big.

Once all the exploring and the rest was done, headed back, had a nice hot water bath and dinner and headed off to bed. The temperature was so cold, that I had to wear socks, two shirts and a monkey cap and sleep, it took me quite awhile to get sleep, because my eyes were going dry very fast.

Contd

[Dhruv Shetty]

Day 3 (24th December 2023)

Sleep broke with a nice chill and some sunlight through the windows, took about 30 mins to get out after some laying around. Did the morning routine and had some nice black coffee with some vitamin D and with a view. Went off for a nice walk to soak up fresh air, the views and the little pups as company. Late morning me and my uncle went and checked the newly drip irrigation setup, which turned up as a nice cardio workout. Upon returning to the house, got cracking on to make lunch

Morning view along with black coffee






Preparation of lunch and some moosambi juice, i was doing all the squeezing and cutting for the juice, please forgive my crude cutting skills and the mess





The lunch made by Chef Dhruv Shetty


Did some cleaning of the fork pipes


Post lunch and a slight rest, went outside watered the plantation areas around the house. Later on, got the bike cleaned up with the water hose, I dropped the bike on the left while I leaned it towards the left side get the water out of the swingarm area.

Bikes getting washed up.






Plants and fields getting watered








During the early evening, got the pump started from the artificial tank fired up, set up the pressure to 3.5 PSI, to check the lines leading to the drip irrigation were free from any leakages and all were working fine, there were a few spots which were leaking and not lined, which was noted down. The capacity of the tank is 10 million litres.

The artificial tank supplying water to house, newly built drip irrigation system and surrounding area


Some of the lines for the drip irrigation, later on they will be covered up by mud after all the checks and testing is done







The pictures do not do justice to the actual experience.












During the stay, I enjoyed driving the quails even if it was rattling like crazy and the spare tyre holder was dangling hitting the surface below.

The trusty ol Qualis




Later in the night we went to pick up the relative who owns the place in the Qualis, nice cool breeze with smooth roads, the headlight throw is still impressive for its age, quirky part is the steering is not fully straight but going in a straight line, after meeting up with the uncle, we went to a restaurant and some delicious food, my mama and uncle had surmay dish and spicy egg curry along with Bhakri and Jawar roti, I just had the spicy egg dish. After wiping the dinner clean, headed back to house, chatted, packed up majority of the luggage and slept off.

Contd

[Dhruv Shetty]

Day 4 time to head back (25th December 2023)

After breakfast, we started packing the rest of the luggage and mounting on the bikes and gearing up, said our goodbyes and left at 10:30 am.

A little background the house in the pic, is old house which they used before the new one was built in 2020


Here most of them used to chill, eat dance and sleep later.


Behind the door is a room with a kitchen and bathroom attached


Bikes all loaded up




Another Misal pav breakfast


Some more posing shots of Tali on Malkapur roads










On the way back after crossing Satara, the left side leg guard top bolt came undone and fell off, must have gotten loose when dropped while washing. During one of the pitstops, removed and strapped it along with the luggage.

Leg gaurd which came loose and hang on one bolt


Strapped on along with the bag


As we were making good time and reached Pune at 3 o’clock, decided to push on to Mumbai.

Outskirts of Pune




Total trip distance.


ODO reading plus 1600kms, right now the bike stands at 37k.


Total time taken from Malkapur to Mumbai was 10 hours. This was a nice outing and a ride to end 2023.

Plus reached home without any casualties, unlike like last year on the same day.

Cheers,
Dhruv Shetty.