[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by aargee

Well then sorry; I've read Dr Naren mentioning that his S Cross ran out of Diesel. So he went to fuel station, refueled, 2-3 cranks or something, his car is alive.

And by these days you mean post 2011 (or like 2018/19 times?) batch of vehicles? Reason to ask is, even I was into that misconception that fuel pump has to be submerged into tank for pump to remain cool etc. But then, a experimental head from CBR group who claimed to have run a dry tank intentionally on his CBR, refueled & rode again. Since I haven't done this before, I cannot vouch. His was not more than 2014/15 model though.

Haan. The thing is once or twice in the lifetime of the vehicle is probably fine. The pump wont self combust lol. But doing it repeatedly like what OP's friend did in his village will probably ensure a quick death. Anyway, why risk it? This is a bit like the "don't switch off your car immediately after coming to a halt, or the turbo will go kaput" rule.

Its common to all ICE FI driven vehicles, if I am not mistaken, regardless the decade of choice.

[Arwin07]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

I am wondering why the ECU would fail because of poor quality petrol or low petrol level in the tank. Do you mean ECU or fuel pump? The fuel pump can definitely be damaged by the above mentioned conditions.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

I'm guessing the OP is referring to his fuel pump going kaput rather than the ECU.

Yes. I am wrong. It was the fuel pump that failed at 15000kms after dry running. It was replaced.

At 50000km, the diagnostics found it was issue in 'Throttle position sensor'. But after 3 months of trying, multiple calls/emails to TVS company, the technician added Carburettor with the wiring of Fi intact.
It has been a smooth, trouble-free 25000kms with Carburettor so far.

Originally Posted by sai_ace

Ha! A thread after my own issues!

I ride 2008 Vintage Apache RTR 160 eFi. The very same bike the OP owns.
People would like to think that the bike was ahead of its time - maybe, maybe not. But the bike suffered from TVS's dithering policy and lack of support.

The problems I faced above, I think we might still face them with the introduction of Fuel injection in the upcoming bikes as we still face enough fuel issues in the country. But the bigger problem of lack of spares might not exist anymore with Fuel injection being the norm.

Exactly. It was lack of spares and lack of support to discontinued model is what I am irked at TVS.
As Fuel injector is a standard hereafter, I am hoping that there won't be a problem in spares.
I wonder if RTR 160 4v and RTR 200 will share the Fi unit? Because 160 4V sells 10x more than RTR 200, parts will be available with ease.

With this Fi unit being Bosch closed loop FI, my new habit of refiling only in COCO (it helps that I moved back to city), always having half tank petrol, I hope that I won't face any Fuel injection related problems in my BS6 TVS Apache 200 (awaiting delivery).

I am hearing that the Fuel Injection system of CBR250, R15, Yamaha FZ do not have any problems like Royal Enfield, TVS, Bajaj. Could anyone please tell the make (supplier) of Fi unit of CBR, R15, FZ?

[hgps]

I have owned 2 carb equipped (FZ v1, TVS jupiter) and 2 Fi equipped bikes (CBR250R, CBR650F). I'd prefer fi over carb any day.

Positives of Fi:

1. Instant start. Even after months of sitting idle. One second cranking and engine comes to life. Carb bikes takes longer to start and die 2-3 times even with choke fully open.

2. No need to manually choke a cold engine. (not talking about auto-choke equipped carbs)

3. Never stalls even when engine is not in operating temperature. My carb equipped bike and scooter had tendency to stall at awkward times. Especially when traffic lights turned green. (already adjusted idle rpm)

4. No need of adjusting idle RPM.

5. Crisp throttle response

6. Higher fuel efficiency

7. No need of messing with AFR screw. Closed loop fi dues it automatically.


Negatives:

1. Higher cost

2. Cannot be overhauled by road side mechanic

3. Dead battery? forget about push start. (although it works with low voltage, but won't work with dead battery)

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by aargee

And by these days you mean post 2011 (or like 2018/19 times?) batch of vehicles?

Would be hard to bifurcate based on year of make, it mostly has to do with the design while the fuel pump is inside the fuel tank on some motorcycles like the CBR it is outside and not part of the fuel tank on some other motorcycles like the ZMR.

Though I'm no expert to say one type is better than the other I would suggest that is a good start to look at if you're interested to learn more.

But the fact remains the same, the pump needs fuel to function without fail, here's what Walbro has to say;

Frequently running your vehicle on a low gas tank is extremely bad for your fuel pump and fuel system components. On many vehicles, approximately 10-15 times the amount of fuel your fuel pump sends towards your engine gets sent back to your fuel tank. This helps cool down your fuel components and the fuel in your gas tank. By running on a low gas tank, the fuel in the gas tank heats up a lot quicker causing the fuel pump to overheat or even worse, run dry. Avoid leaving your gas tank low whenever possible. This is very crucial during the first few weeks after a new fuel pump install. A new fuel pump should be installed into a a minimum of half a tank full of gas.

I'm glad your fuel pump is working fine after the ordeal but I'd not make a habit of it cause if you think of it there are people who have been riding around lidless from the beginning of time without any serious incident and would swear by riding as such, but we disregard them simply cause the people(certified experts) who know better and can present facts don't side with them, more or less the same logic can be applied in the case of motorcycle maintenance.

As for my views:

Electronic components are prone to failure without warning even under ideal conditions, no two ways about it.

Now a days the advantage a Carburetors puts forth is limited to uninterrupted fueling during testing times and the possibility of resolving fuelling issues while away from the comfort and assurance of a ASC.

Nothing more, the advanced microprocessor CDI's on most if not all motorcycles available today is powered by DC current, which makes it just as prone to electric failure as a ECU, but then ECU's just like CDI's are perfectly sealed and not prone to get easily damaged.

So to sum it up, if critical electricals are shot then irrespective of whether you ride a DC CDI or ECU operated motorcycle, you're toast!

But if it's a fueling related concern then you at the least have a fighting chance with a carburetor, again no two ways about it, a carburetor is purely mechanical, there is literally nothing that can go wrong with a carburetor you cannot fix.

Nothing, Nada!

P.S. If by chance water enters the fuel tank how do you FI guys drain it? On carburetted motorcycles we simply drain the float undoing the drain screw until all the waters out and fuel starts pouring out.

Having once drowned my motorcycle while crossing a stream I do wonder how the FI folk deal with such concerns.

P.P.S. With some elbow grease I did get the motorcycle running and was able to ride her out of that situation, only damage per say was that the engine oil got emulsified and turned caramel and had to be changed.

Cheers,
A.P.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

But if it's a fueling related concern then you at the least have a fighting chance with a carburetor, again no two ways about it, a carburetor is purely mechanical, there is literally nothing that can go wrong with a carburetor you cannot fix.

Nothing, Nada!

Have a 30+ years old Rx (1991 Yamaha Rx100 black color); need a small o ring inside the carb; searching for over couple of years now & still couldn't find it. Got frustrated & bought a Paco last year (costed a whopping 2K), it still isn't perfect & the O-ring doesn't fit the OE mikuni either!!

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

P.S. If by chance water enters the fuel tank how do you FI guys drain it? On carburetted motorcycles we simply drain the float undoing the drain screw until all the waters out and fuel starts pouring out

Got water logged inside my CPR (2011 Honda CBR 250R that I like to insult as CPR as it gasps beyond 145) in 2018 as the drain pipe got rusted. The dirt water logged entirely inside engine, fuel tank & the brown liquid was visible through the inspection window.

All I had to do was send to JSP, change the fuel tank (obviously) & change the oil twice; once at 100 Km & next at 500. After that the vehicle is still running in great shape, same speeds be it one or two up. So, water inside the tank, Fi system - been there, done that!!

Point being - Not all electronics are prone to fail & not all mechanical are bullet proof. And all the above are my experience, not generalized statements or from internet

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by aargee

Have a 30+ years old Rx (1991 Yamaha Rx100 black color); need a small o ring inside the carb; searching for over couple of years now & still couldn't find it. Got frustrated & bought a Paco last year (costed a whopping 2K), it still isn't perfect & the O-ring doesn't fit the OE mikuni either!!

Sir you can't be so picky, that motorcycle is literally older than me and you're cribbing about an O ring going bad?

Jokes apart, presuming this is the O ring related to the float needle.

I'd still be glad for you, since its a carburetor even if the O Ring gave up the motorcycle would still remain rideable and worst case scenario would run rich and some fuel would overflow through the drain pipe directed at the ground.

Because if an O ring failed on your fuel pump then you're looking at an unrideable motorcycle and a fire hazard at best.

Plus do you know anyone who've owned a 30 year old FI motorcycle with time adequate mileage so as to get a comparative understanding of what long term FI motorcycle ownership would be like?

I'm curious at this point cause I'm pretty sure there'd be more than an O ring that'd have fouled cause our own fellow enthusiasts have mentioned that they were forced to retrofit a carburetor on their respective FI motorcycles and I doubt their motorcycles are as half as old as your RX100.

BTW; I wasn't being optimistic about the carburetted motorcycle being rideable, my float pin had seized on my P220 when she was left unused for a few months, one fine day I decided to ride her to Kochi which is 150kms from Kollam and guess what, she was peeing fuel down the drain pipe, having already started the ride I simply added some Addon P from a fuel bunk and rode the remainder of the journey, motorcycle has never peed fuel since, the carburetor hasn't been opened even once to date after purchase and shes over 50k on the odo after 5 years of ownership a majority of which she was left unused for months at a time.

All I had to do was send to JSP, change the fuel tank (obviously) & change the oil twice; once at 100 Km & next at 500. After that the vehicle is still running in great shape, same speeds be it one or two up. So, water inside the tank, Fi system - been there, done that!!

"Been there" - Definitely Yes, and Kudos to the CBR for running trouble free since.

"Done that" - Hmmm.. Not quite. Guess I missed to mention that I'd flooded my motorcycle post midnight and was able to get her running by myself within the next few minutes.

This simply reinforces my point, you can manage to get a carburetor running even if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere, you simply cant expect that kind of leniency from FI.

And all the above are my experience, not generalized statements or from internet

Having clocked so many miles I'm sure you'd very well understand that though precision and convenience are appreciable qualities, it doesnt trump being able to ride home without being stranded someplace at the mercy of someone.

Just saying. It seems I've run out of smileys and this is one debate that has over time been beaten to death, buried, exhumed, postmortemed and buried again. But I'd gladly like to spectate with an open mind.

Cheers and Ride Safe,
A.P.

[scorpian]

Although the FI has its own advantages and can offer a lot more but let me pen down my experience with my bike on which i have clocked more then 80% mileage it has done till date on interstate highways sometimes riding at night and mind you all of this when there was no GPS and stuff to mount of the handle bars. The bike i am referring to is my karizma and it has a CV carb.

I still remember i once had got the K&N filter and up-jetting done from a mechanic called shrikant chavan who came highly recommended by mr dilip bam. as i was riding back and hardly crossed kolhapur the bike started acting funny and started losing its steam on higher speeds.I actually opened the carb replaced the jet to next bigger size and kept riding, infact over the next 50 kilometers i opened the carb another three times and replaced the jet till i had the bike riding just the way i wanted.I had the freedom and flexibility of doing it as it was carburetor and as ashwin has mentioned there's very little that can't be fixed on a carb bike.

Of course now many would say you need not do any of it on a FI bike.But i kind off have peace of mind with the simplest of electronics on my bike, the lesser the better, less chances of being stranded in worst case scenario.

[Rocketscience]

Well, i only recently got into bikes and my Fi Bike is about to turn 1 year old next month, for me Fi is absolutely the future and if it were not for this, i would have never gotten a bike in the first place.

I used to observe other bikers and even on my sister's Activa it straight out refused to start in the cold and if it has not been used for a week or more, then starting it was an uphill battle, you would need to be adjusting the choke, the electric start would refuse to work, you would have to kick for 10 minutes sometimes, the scooter would start up and then it will again turn off, it is just so much of a pain.

Now i know for someone who uses this everyday it might be less of an issue, but since it is 2020 now, the carb powered 2 wheelers feel very 20th century to me.

On the flip side my R15 no matter what just starts within 1 second of crank, it was even lying unused for 2 months at a stretch and one fine winter morning with about 10 degrees outside i decided to start and it took the exact same time, it never ever turned off on its own, and for this reason alone Fi is a big winner in my books and Carbs don't even come close.

Regarding these maintenance tips i hardly followed anything on my cars and they never died on me, i expect the same for 2 wheelers, its only when the tech is new, the companies and service center personnel become extra paranoid and come up with all sorts of tips to make it run properly, these things are invented to make our lives better not add additional hassle in my honest opinion.

Also the ECU in no circumstances can go kaput because of low quality fuel, it is an electronic device much like a computer and there is no reason it will stop working because of bad fuel, it should not have gone bad, period! I believe there is some other root cause, perhaps something with electrical system which is causing this, or maybe it is not built to withstand the harsh Indian climate.

[N33raj]

I have the same bike the OP has albeit in the lovely orange colour scheme. This was a purchase done simply because i took one ride on it and was sold. This was in circa 2008 when this new fangled FI business had just started with TVS.

Fast forward to 2020 and my bike, or Horse as i call it, has been with me over 4 states and 95k km. During this time, it has eaten through:
2 front brake discs (but of course),

3 rear brake discs (I tend to use the rear to scrub speed and both when i have to stop really quickly),

1 set of front suspension (bad roads and my inability to see potholes),

1 set of rear suspension (brontosaurus masquerading as office mate pillion rider for a year),

7 sets of Pirelli Sport Demons (i change them as a set of front and rear every 10k km regardless of what tread life remains on either of them; i have found this to be a good number to change),

2 sets of MRF Zapper FY1 front + Revz S rears, currently on third set (unable to source PSD in Guwahati, this was the next best thing; folks will know this as the setup on the Yamaha R15),

new electrical wiring harness (rat problem),

4 batteries,

a few broken indicators,

3 meter displays (someone took off the rubber button covers on the 2 buttons on the IP and rain got in and ruined them; as a result, my bike has done only 27k km!),

2 NGK Iridiums.

Never have i faced any issues with the FI system, touchwood.

Cold starts in cold Bangalore mornings? No problem.
How about somewhere up in Arunachal in January? First crank.

Acceleration is crispy like a bag of crisps. But the system hates heat, tortoise speed traffic and low fuel. I have always filled it when there are 2 bars left and i fill up whenever and wherever the fuel bar drops; so far, no issues. I get about 38km for a litre of the explosive stuff. From what i have seen, it loves cold and hates heat pretty much.

Yes on some days i think i should put up a long term ownership review of the Horse but something or the other crops up. I plan on doing it within this year heh heh.


Has anyone converted a RTR EFI to run as a full DC bike? This one is a AC/DC system, i want to raise the alternator output enough so that i can run two HIDs all day all night (current output 118 W). I am aware of the posts on the xBHP forum and have spoken to DRVMTM himself but haven't seen it done on a FI system one.

[evilmessiah]

Had only positive experiences on my fuel-injected CBR 250R. Then again, Honda's fuel injection systems are typically very well calibrated and reliable. Never gave me a cause to complain during the entire tenure of my ownership with it.


Now, on to my experiences with other bikes:


1) Early Classic 500- Lousy open loop fuel injection system on the stock bike. However, my friend had converted his more recently acquired Desert Storm 500 to a carbed setup after its fuel pump conked off and it was running quite well after taking a lot of pains with the calibration.

2) Continental GT535- Was working well during the short stints that I had. Not sure if RE has switched to a closed loop system with this one, but it wasn't jerky and snatchy like the Classic 500.

3) KTM Duke 390- The old one was wild. The newer ones have mellowed down and are more linear. The throttle response is quite quick. It's fun, alright but not very friendly in stop and go traffic. Would still love to have one as a weekend toy.

4) Benelli TNT 300- Was okay. Didn't find anything uneventful for the short ride that I had.

5) Hyosung GT250- The second worst fuel injected bike I've ever ridden. Hated the whole bike, actually.

6) Honda CBR650F- Nothing needs to be said about this gem. I can forgo eating and sleeping if someone paid me to just to travel forever on this bike.

In short, pros and cons of fuel injected bikes:


Pros:
1) Smooth power delivery if calibrated well.
2) Crisp, crisp throttle response in a good application.
3) Generally reliable. Usually one of the last things to fail on a bike (ECU, at least. Fuel pump- not so much, but still a rare occurrence, in my experience)

4) Cold starts in a pinch. Exception is the old Classic 500.
5) Performs better at high altitudes, I guess.
6) Better emissions too, I think.



Cons:
1) Expensive Repairs if it fails.
2) Not much tinkering or tuning potential as with a carb.
3) A person experienced with carbed bikes will not appreciate the added complexity of a fuel injected bike. More things that can go wrong.
4) Poorly calibrated systems can be snatchy, too sharp and rough and will be a pain to modulate the throttle at slow speeds, especially in city traffic.


The way I see it, fuel injected bikes are a part of the march of the future technology that's truly useful for the not so mechanically inclined guys like me.

[jasjotbains]

I had a Pulsar 220 DTSFi which I purchased after my father said NO to an Enfield.







This bike had an open loop FI and projector lamps before they were famous!

Pros:

1. Pickup - 0 to 70 in 150 meters without breaking a sweat.
2. Zero effort cold starts in Chandigarh cold (temperatures used to drop below 5 at night).
3. Superior fuel economy - I have managed to eke out 51 kmpl under sedate driving, which was again effortless.
4. Top end - Though I wouldn't bet it against a R15 on an open stretch, I used to have frequent challenges from Bullet 500's and R15's on my way to college. Shorter stretch and more muscle meant the others barely managed to keep up.
5. More than adequate power on demand - whether you're driving in city or highway. It used to hover at 70kmph around 5K RPM in 5th gear. with a sweet hum and in a relaxed tone.
6. Projectors - Didn't know what darkness was with them.
7. Crispness - This bike did not understand what delay meant. Any throttle movement was instantly transmitted to the engine and then to the wheels. My Activa 5G gives me a adequate time for a coffee break before converting input to output

Cons:

1. Being a new entrant in Fi, dependancy of fuel quality on the mechanicals was always an issue. There was a time when I managed to choke a brand new fuel filter in just 1 tank full (they lasted atleast 6 months normally)! Choked filter meant your engine was starved of its rightful share of fuel AND the fuel pump was doing extra work to push fuel.
2. Service - it was the age of Probiking, meaning any issue could be rectified only by taking it across town to PBK (Probiking showroom) which was always chock-a-block with Avengers, 220s, 200s and Ninjas.
3. Repair cost - I did manage to kill my fuel pump once after bike was left standing for 2-3 days. I presume water might have seeped in since it was unusually cold and rainy that time. However, it cost me a cool 4500 in 2011 to get the pump replaced (and multiple visits later due to improper sealing of the tank).
4. Delicate sensors - My bike was never the same after getting the pump changed. Bajaj modified the design of the fuel filter and somehow I used to get knocking after the engine got warmed up (surprisingly, no knocking was there when engine was cold). I had shifted to COCO in Sector 21 for fuel, got K&N installed, but there was no respite. Probiking narrowed it down to a faulty temperature sensor, but I was already planning for a car then so I had to sell it off with a heavy heart.

Was it worth it? Every rupee of it
Will I buy it again? YES (unless my wife kills me first)
Carb vs FI? FI all the way.

[jd10ent]

I have been using a FI bike for over 2 years now. Done almost 30k kms. Have not faced any issues with the FI. The usual maintenance is required. Ensure clean fuel is used, do not allow the fuel to empty completely.
Periodically, say about 10k kms, get the fuel filter replaced and throttle body cleaned.
Additionally, one can use fuel injector cleaner additives. Multiple brands are available in the market. Just add 8-10ml (1ml to a liter I think is the normal ratio) to each tankful. I've used LiquiMoly, Add-On and few others from time to time.
Advantages of FI over carb are felt when you are doing high altitude riding, like Leh, Spiti, etc. Carbs tend to lose power due, however, FIs will adjust for lower oxygen and deliver smooth output.

[CarBot]

Originally Posted by scorpian

I had the freedom and flexibility of doing it as it was carburetor and as ashwin has mentioned there's very little that can't be fixed on a carb bike.

I completely agree, I did a stupid thing. I bought the new FZ with FI with full josh. After about 400 kms of riding the bike started to feel boring. Went to my FNG and asked him to put a K&N. He refused to do so for the same reason as quoted above.

Later I sold it at around 500kms on odo and bought a RX135 and rest is history

[navin_v8]

The automobile has come a long way since inception which motorcycles are an integral part of. A lot of technological advances has trickled down from cars to motorcycles. For example: Cars used to have hand crank to start their engines akin to kick starter on motorcycles. The hand crank was replaced with an electric starter motor which also flowed down to motorcycles. We have witnessed many motorcycle manufacturers doing away with kick starters.

Another example is of fueling. Earlier cars had carburetor which were replaced with EFi to increase reliability, ease, overall performance, efficiency in addition to adhering to emission norms. Same trickled down to motorcycles. The question about reliability of an EFi can be witnessed by automobiles of all kind running around the world without much issues.

With Tesla making electric cars mainstream the motorcycle manufacturers aren't far behind. Earlier there were some manufacturers who used to offer electric bikes, but they were just doing it for the heck of it. Now with battery tech evolving and going mainstream many are following what Tesla did. In the distant future we would be discussing about EFi vs Li-ion battery output.

Coming to my experience of using both Carburetor and EFi to this day. Well both have their own advantages and disadvantages as many of our members have highlighted in this thread. According to me it is the type of EFi which determines its reliability and usability. Our desi manufacturers in the beginning offered EFi with Open Loop system to cut corners (skipping O2 sensor, other peripherals, etc.). An Open Loop system is not as "smart" and dynamic as a Closed Loop EFi. About the tuning part, well one can tinker with the Carburetor endlessly to find that perfect air-fuel ratio as per one's liking but I am not sure if the same in possible in EFi. Although ECU remaps can be done to modify the factory programmed maps but I am not sure if one can do it on their own as in Carburetor.

In addition to older CI RE Bullet/s. I have been owning an RE Tbird500 EFi (came with Open Loop type EFi from the factory) close to 6 years now and it has never given me any trouble or left me stranded. Newer technologies always have initial hiccups but then, it doesn't take time for the same to be accepted and becoming a standard.

IMO as the technology evolves the systems will become fool proof, safe and more reliable as we have witnessed (disc brakes, ABS, electric start, alloy wheels, traction control, etc.) trickled down from cars to motorcycles.

[ps_abhijith]

I had used an R15 V1 from 2011-2019.
Through all these years, I had always ensured that fuel level in the tank does not go below 1/4th tank, as it was the only advice given to me form the service center. The service center used to clean the injector during alternate services.

I would say that the issues OP had with ECU may be attributed to the low quality of the ECU itself, and not related to fuel in anyway. I am still in touch with the person owning my bike, and the ECU is still going good.

However, I have had my share of issues with the FI system. In my experience, the fuel pump is the weakest part in FI system, and the one most prone to fail given the quality of fuel in our country.

Mine failed around 2014, with 25k on the odo. I was given a quote of around 11k INR to replace the pump, as it was a sealed unit. The bike's invoice prince at the time of purchase was 1 lakh. This was 10% of the price! Thankfully, I was able to find guides on how to break open the pump, clean it and revive the pump, and was successfully able to do so. The amount of muck, gum and dirt accumulated in the pump was beyond anyone's expectation.

Post this, I used to add fuel injector cleaner once in every 3000km until I sold the bike. Also, ensured that I was filling up only at company owned / relatively new fuel outlets.

Another issue which I had noticed is that if the battery starts to weaken even a little bit, the pump wont prime and the bike wont start, leaving you with a dead bike. I had to change batteries in almost every 2 years, until I upgraded to a 5ah battery. The stock one was 3ah, if I remember correctly.

Other than the ones already mentioned above by others, an advantage of FI system which I had felt was that unlike carb bikes, FI bikes do not need adjustments when you go up in altitude. Though i had experienced drop in power, the bike used to adjust to altitudes.