[jaymanrides18]

On the last weekend, we rode our usual trail. One of our friends, got his rally kit fitted Xpulse that another one of our rider friends chose to try out. The friend riding is a rally-raid enthusiast and has participated in over 20 rallies and more dirt track events. On one of the fast patches, we decided to do a couple of laps, the first one was the X's and the second belonged to the Impulse. The dust was quite a major reason behind the lead and the follow but I thought it'd be a fun little video, so here:

https://youtu.be/kRu6p6wcIlw

Again, not a race - just a little video showing both bike's capabilities.

[Red Liner]

The best thing about shooting videos with a GoPro is you can sit back and look at all your screw ups.

Like this:

https://youtu.be/2r1-ZG8J8jo

Advice appreciated.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Advice appreciated.

Say no further. Best advice: Sell that buffalo and get a splendor BS6. It's got wings.

Seriously though, best thing to do would be to ride along with people who know what they're doing. You tend to sub-consciously pick up a lot by copying and following better riders.

If you think that's too extreme or too vague or ineffective for whatever reason, then you could identify solutions to a problem, isolate the components and work on them separately if possible... i.e you could try to break the solution down into more digestible bits. Lesser the variables, easier it is for us to process something.

For example, if going downhill is a problem, the things you'd usually need to do to solve that are:

a> getting used to using the rear brake more\locking it up
b> body balance to keep legs on pegs and manage the dirt underneath

You could try training at these separately. Go on flat ground, and get used to using only the rear; then do only that on inclines starting with gentle\easy ones until you eventually get comfortable with steeper ones. Locking up is not always necessary, but it's good to get used to so that you can do it when you need it as well as not get caught by surprise if\when it happens. Since you've got ABS on the front, you probably don't need this bit too much I think (not sure though since I have no personal experience of riding an ABS equipped bike offroad).

Same thing with body positioning and balance\bodyweight shifting. Start on flat ground and get the basic fitness and confidence required to ride through undulations while keeping your feet on the pegs.

Next, combine these on easy inclines to get a hang of things, and ramp it up to progressively steeper inclines till you're comfortable with a wide range of inclines and surface types.

Not putting your foot down too much is a BIG DEAL as far as efficient traversal (as well as enjoyment of the ride) goes, especially as the bikes get heavier. You'll fatigue yourself a lot less by minimizing the amount of time you need to put the foot\feet down for balance.

Shifting weight side to side is also a big deal for taking turns without putting the leg down, as well as dealing with the undulations of a surface. You tend to get tighter turning angles when you do this. And of course, you tend to have more control over your body weight when you're standing up on the pegs. I used to go to my local "maidana" to practice this stuff when nobody was around.


Some extra tidbits:

a> This should go without saying but clutch and accelerator work go hand in hand with weight shifting while dealing with the ground undulations.

b> Keep your core and legs in good shape. They make a good difference to the way you ride.

c> On a general note, people tend to enjoy an activity a lot more if it's within their grasp or just enough of a bit out of their grasp that they can stretch and reach it. If they have to stretch themselves too much to reach it, or do not know at that point how to stretch themselves, or if it turns out to be practically impossible to reach it, they naturally end up with little to no fun and a good bit of frustration.

In other words, you tend to have more fun on relatively flat ground while you're still picking up the necessary skills and habits because it'll let you practice what you've picked up better and easier, and you'll also pick up more skills without punishing yourself too much for it. Of course I'm NOT AT ALL saying you need to stick to flatland till you've ridden x amount of dirt kms or anything, just saying that it tends to be a more enjoyable experience as far as the riding part itself is concerned (and not considering the enjoyment derived from the magnificent views, weather and whatnot from hilltops).

No offence intended. Just putting some stuff out that i think might be useful to think about.

[Red Liner]

Excellent advice and that is the purpose of this thread! Not to just post stupid videos.

Now to find a maidan in Bangalore... Unfortunately all i see are expensive high rises lol!

[ast.ggn]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

The best thing about shooting videos with a GoPro is you can sit back and look at all your screw ups.

Get a cheap Impulse/ Xpulse type bike, if you want to enjoy such trails without the fear of things going bad. Keep 390 for highways and easy trails.

Downhill with gravel/ rocks is always tricky, no matter what kind of bike you are on. Engine braking (1st gear) + rear brakes work well in such situation and a little confidence.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Advice appreciated.

Every time you go out for a ride, you need to have a purpose in mind. Wandering aimlessly exploring new areas is a purpose too and a lot of fun. But when it come to technique and improving yourself, you need a more focused approach

Start with the basics. Are you comfortable standing up and riding? As much as you are sitting down? How fast are you able to corner on a relatively flat surface off road? Etc. I've said this many times but here goes - waddling through the terrain is NOT off road riding. Find a place where you can get basic stand up and ride position, flat track cornering etc dialed. This will help immensely

Cant find a place to practice? Look at Google earth. Scan areas near you where you see dirt and navigate to it. Off topic but there's a weird thread I think which is on the lines of Gmaps diminishing adventure . For me, it has only enhanced it as I'm now able to search areas near me that I can explore and have an absolute blast!

Finally - I do strongly believe that you're bringing a butter knife to a gunfight. An off road focused machine like a used impulse or an xpulse will be a much better tool for you to learn, where better = safer, quicker, cheaper. 40 plus horsepower and 180 kilos are not novice friendly figures. Having taken my duke off road enough times, I speak with some authority on the subject

The pic below is of one such area i discovered 200 meters from my place today. Spent a couple hours just practicing stand up riding and flat cornering (getting used to the ergos on the xpulse, especially after the rally kit install

Al the best

[Red Liner]

All you guys are absolutely right. I have been lazy about this whole "find a place to practice" thing. I think I will just have to go by myself this very weekend and practice.

Here are a few things I wanted get sorted:

1. Taking corners on sandy gravely offroad trails with confidence (butt shift to the outside of the corner)
2. Staying stood up and shifting gears (being able to do it on the fly without having to sit down and look where the shift lever is)
3. Learning to use the rear brake to steer offroad
4. Learning to look ahead and stop target fixation offroad

Will head out, practice and report back. Might take a few weekends though lol!

Meanwhile ~enjoy

https://youtu.be/GfAm366wb4w

[Urban_Nomad]

Highly recommend that you cross out number 3 from your list. It's a bad habit that's hard to break trust me. Learn to brake well before the corner and slowly reduce braking distance and add speed. Ride safe

[Urban_Nomad]

A short video from our ride last Sunday. Fantastic fun terrain : loose rocks on an incline. This is from the return leg of the ride

https://youtu.be/cTXZ2SXC7GE

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

3. Learning to use the rear brake to steer offroad

Make sure to adjust the rear suspension such that you have some static sag, this is essential for controlled slides be it On/Off Road.

[Urban_Nomad]

^^ Dont you mean the opposite? More sag = more squatted rear = more weight on the rear tyre = more friction = more difficult to slide the rear... no? Isn't this why when we brake slide we move as forward on the bike as possible and to put weight on the front, coz that's where control comes from?

I would once again clarify- it's good for some fun. But if you get into the habit of doing this all the time; its going to be detrimental to your riding. There are very few, very limited scenarios (downhill turns on loose surface for example) where this is actually useful. Otherwise, you must practice finishing your braking before the corner and not carry your brakes into the corner

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

^^ Dont you mean the opposite? More sag = more squatted rear = more weight on the rear tyre = more friction = more difficult to slide the rear... no? Isn't this why when we brake slide we move as forward on the bike as possible and to put weight on the front, coz that's where control comes from?

We're talking about a stock motorcycle running on stock suspension. I'm yet to see a motorcycle on which the preload alone affected the squat geometry to the point of concern, even my CT100B that had crappy geometry to begin with made negligible difference with varying preload settings.

Plus it would be safe to say that KTM would now what they're doing.

So coming to the matter at hand, the basic understanding about the rear brake is that when you use the rear brake even though the wheelbase gets elongated, it's the FRONT END of the motorcycle that the weight transfers to i.e rear end becomes LIGHTER, hence why even with that puny single pot caliper or drum brake we get to slide the rear around with the least effort.

Now having set that precedence the reason why SAG is important is that we need to come to the understanding that the suspension has two functions i.e compression as well as EXTENSION.

Your rate of preload has an impact on both, but with the preload maxed out which is a common(misguided) practice for road bikes you tend to compromise the rear wheel's ability to follow the surface which compromises handling.

In simple words, proper sag is the difference between:
"Oh...Shit...Shit...Shit!" and "Hmm... Should I be going faster?"
When breaking traction at the rear.

Hope that helps. If not then do give Racetech's Suspension Bible a read.

its going to be detrimental to your riding.

Quite the opposite.

There is a lot of history behind how people came to the conclusion that sliding around on a 100cc dirt bike in a ranch helped improve skills on a 500+cc race bike on the track but my memory is not up to the mark, do give it some Googling. Also to note, Rossi wasn't the first one to set up a ranch, this practice has been going on from the 70's if I'm not wrong.

Something that sticks to memory is Casey Stoner's Podium Finish on the Ducati, on asking him how he was able to carve corners on a machine built to the brim for straight line performance, he said something along the lines of his Dirt Riding experience enabling him to slide the rear of the motorcycle which was second nature to him and hence resulted in him being able to carry speed around the corner on the Ducati that didn't corner as well as competition.

Simply put, it has been already established that pushing past the threshold on dirt makes better/safer riders on the road.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

There is a lot of history behind how people came to the conclusion that sliding around on a 100cc dirt bike in a ranch helped improve skills on a 500+cc race bike on the track but my memory is not up to the mark, do give it some Googling. Also to note, Rossi wasn't the first one to set up a ranch, this practice has been going on from the 70's if I'm not wrong.

Simply put, it has been already established that pushing past the threshold on dirt makes better/safer riders on the road.

There's a world of difference between brake sliding and powersliding. What you're referring to with the Moto GP anecdote is powersliding where the wheel spins faster under throttle than it can grip the road and hence loses traction.

RedLiner is referring to practicing brake sliding where you intentionally lock up the rear wheel with a heavy foot on the brake pedal. And Urban_Nomad is right there. Brake sliding into turns is a very fun thing to do, but it's practical uses are limited, especially for a beginner.

That doesn't mean RedLiner should just strike it off his to-do list though. It's fun. And it's fine, just that it's not an efficient way to ride.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Make sure to adjust the rear suspension such that you have some static sag, this is essential for controlled slides be it On/Off Road.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

We're talking about a stock motorcycle running on stock suspension. I'm yet to see a motorcycle on which the preload alone affected the squat geometry to the point of concern, even my CT100B that had crappy geometry to begin with made negligible difference with varying preload settings.

Im not sure if I misunderstood your posts or if you were trying to convey something else but to a semi informed reader like myself, they do seem to be contradictory.

Are you suggesting setting up static sag in line with what is done on regular road bikes? Or higher static sag than road bikes to account for controlled slides in offroad conditions? Or is it something else which I didnt grasp at all?

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

^^ Dont you mean the opposite? More sag = more squatted rear = more weight on the rear tyre = more friction = more difficult to slide the rear... no? Isn't this why when we brake slide we move as forward on the bike as possible and to put weight on the front, coz that's where control comes from?

This sounds logical though I have no rear world experience with off roading like you guys to back it up.

[ashwinprakas]

I've done the courtesy of providing the source of information, feel free to do your own research and arrive at your own conclusions.

P.S. There is an article on the internet about why track riders are trained on motorcycles as low as 70cc on the dirt. I'd doubt a 70cc can power slide.

Take Care,
A.P.