[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Mate I am curious to know the bikes which compare against Harley Davidson Street 750 when it was launched. Could you list them.

Pick any bike in its price range and you will get the answer.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Could you elaborate on what strategy Harley Davidson can implement. Better engineered and better featured is a very broad term. Can you be more specific, it would be interesting to know mate.

Better features - Diet Plan to reduce weight, Modern tech & rider aides like cornering ABS, Traction Control, better heat management, brakes instead of wooden planks - the list is endless.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Combining 2 and 3, if HD had given the Street 750 twins more power and made them bigger and say, equally sized as the rest of the range, HD would have sold tons of Street 750s and nothing else!

And looks?

Iron 883 is one of my favourites from the brand, regardless of the price - but the same cannot be said about the Street 750, which was just like an Avenger with a little more muscle.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Pick any bike in its price range and you will get the answer.

Like? Can you give any examples mate.

Better features - Diet Plan to reduce weight, Modern tech & rider aides like cornering ABS, Traction Control, better heat management, brakes instead of wooden planks - the list is endless.

I am a little confused here, are we talking about their bread and butter higher displacement heavy cruiser line up or the new to be offered low displacement models which are just getting moulded. They do offer something called Reflex Linked Braking System on their trikes which will soon be offered on their other models. Their night rod/V-Rod range of models designed by Porsche did have water cooled engines but I am not sure if those were withdrawn due to poor response. About the weight, again if you are talking about their cruisers then do share some data on weight of the cruisers which compete against Harley Davidson.

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

I am a little confused here, are we talking about their bread and butter higher displacement heavy cruiser line up or the new to be offered low displacement models which are just getting moulded. They do offer something called Reflex Linked Braking System on their trikes which will soon be offered on their other models. Their night rod/V-Rod range of models designed by Porsche did have water cooled engines but I am not sure if those were withdrawn due to poor response. About the weight, again if you are talking about their cruisers then do share some data on weight of the cruisers which compete against Harley Davidson.

Same issues across the range.

Reflex Linked Brakes are nothing but a CBS system - while i was talking about more advanced ABS systems and TC systems which arent there even on their high end models.

Weight - Fat Bob - 296kg, XDiavel - 220kg ... thats a difference of more than 25%

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Well - that way one can argue that Duke 390 is all the performance on would need 95% of the time on our roads - so anything beyond that is overkill. I disagree though - the 5% of the time you get a chance to open the throttle is when you really enjoy owning a big bike.

ethanhunt123, I was in no way implying anything related to any KTM. Outside of all the marketing and product positioning mumbo jumbo that I tend to spew, I was pointing out how in the real world, Ive never seen the Street 750 to be lacking in performance.

Coming back to our earlier discussion, you brought up the point of the Street 750 having "lack of performance". We often forget, at least I do, that the bike was designed to be made available for A2 license holders in Europe so obviously its performance is capped. Having more than 47 odd HP would make it unavailable to the A2 market. So that answers the question of more performance.

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Besides i was comparing performance of the HD750 with others in its price range - its a laggard compared to them all.

Sure the bike might be a laggard compared to say the Z650. Sure you can get cheaper A2 level motorcycles. But none of them come with the HD badge or get you entry into the HD world.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

3. To me (YMMV), when the topic of HD bikes and presence comes up, the conversation really starts with the bigger (and more expensive) offerings. Again, if HD had made the Street 750 look as big as its other offerings, nobody would have put down any money for the traditional big and burly HD bikes and would have bought the Street 750. There had to be some compromise to logically space out their products.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

And looks?

Iron 883 is one of my favourites from the brand, regardless of the price - but the same cannot be said about the Street 750, which was just like an Avenger with a little more muscle.

CD, that is exactly what I alluded to when I said there had to be some compromises with regard to engine capacity and looks. There is no way that HD could have made a bike similarly proportioned (or styled!) to the 883 but with a smaller 750cc engine. No value conscious customer would have said, hey let me pay Rs 3 lakhs more to get the 883 cc when I can get a similar looking HD with 750 cc and only 3 PS less.

Also imagine how annoyed 883 owners would have been if HD released an 883 ish proportioned / styled cut price Street 750. They would have felt cheated by HD.

So all things considered, HD had to compromise on the looks!

P.S - If the Street is good enough for Captain America, then who are we to complain about the bike's looks!

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Coming back to our earlier discussion, you brought up the point of the Street 750 having "lack of performance". We often forget, at least I do, that the bike was designed to be made available for A2 license holders in Europe so obviously its performance is capped. Having more than 47 odd HP would make it unavailable to the A2 market. So that answers the question of more performance.

Neil - i really dont buy into this A2 license logic. For example - even Z900 has a A2 variant - but the stock bike is 120bhp+ Same with other bikes such as Bonnie. If HD's 750 engine was capable of pumping out more performance - they would have gotten it and launched a restricted A2 variant.

And my point about KTM was just to show that you wont even feel lack of "real life" performance with a D390 even on highways with superbikes. That doesnt mean D390 can be said to have same performance as them.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Sure the bike might be a laggard compared to say the Z650. Sure you can get cheaper A2 level motorcycles. But none of them come with the HD badge or get you entry into the HD world.

Exactly what i said in the beggining - the only positive of the bike is HD badge (for those who value it). If we remove it - its a mediocre motorcycle at best.

PS: Pay Marvel enough and they might even feature the mighty CT100B in one of their movies

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Like? Can you give any examples mate

Quoting myself here as I didn't get any reply on this.

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Same issues across the range.

All their offerings are Cruisers mate, that's why I asked about its competitors' offerings specific to cruisers only.

Reflex Linked Brakes are nothing but a CBS system - while i was talking about more advanced ABS systems and TC systems which arent there even on their high end models.

Nope. That's not really true and I quote this from information available on the web about Reflex Linked Braking System. Here's the excerpt about RLBS "NEW ELECTRONIC REFLEX LINKED BRAKE SYSTEM WITH CORNERING CONTROL FEATURES
The all-new Reflex Linked Brake system for 2019 Harley-Davidson Tri Glide Ultra and Freewheeler® three-wheeled motorcycles is fully electronic and utilizes the latest inertial measurement unit (IMU) and ABS sensor technology to enhance traction, stability and braking control in both a straight line and in corners. The Reflex Linked Brake system is designed to aid the rider in controlling the vehicle while accelerating, decelerating, and braking in a straight line, in adverse road conditions, and in emergency situations. It includes four key elements:

Traction Control (TCS)
Traction control system (TCS) is designed to prevent the rear wheels from excessive spinning under acceleration, which could occur on wet or slippery road surfaces or when abrupt acceleration is commanded by the rider. If the TCS detects that a rear wheel is losing traction under acceleration it will apply brake pressure to limit wheel spin.

Drag-Torque Slip Control System (DSCS)
Drag-torque slip control system (DSCS) is designed to prevent excessive rear wheel slip under deceleration, which typically occurs when the rider makes an abrupt down-shift gear change or decelerates on wet or slippery road surfaces. When DSCS detects excessive rear wheel slip under deceleration it will adjust engine torque delivery to better match rear-wheel speed to road speed.

ABS
ABS is designed to prevent the wheels from locking up under braking, with the goal of maximizing deceleration while maintaining straight-line stability when braking on wet or slippery road surfaces or over-braking due to an unexpected hazard. The ABS detects if wheels are approaching lock up under braking and if so, modulates the brake pressure to limit wheel slip.

Linked Braking
The Reflex Linked Brake System electronically links braking through both the front brake hand lever and the rear brake foot pedal. Linking will be active any time the brakes are applied and vehicle speed is above approximately 4.3 mph (7 kph mph). The brakes will remain linked as long as the rider continues to apply a brake control.

When the front or rear brake is actuated above approximately 4.3 mph (7 kph mph) the system applies a proportional amount of pressure to both brakes on the other axle. The amount of brake pressure applied to the other axle depends upon many factors including how hard the rider is applying the brake, the vehicle speed, and if the vehicle is turning. The amount of pressure electronically applied to the other axle is less than what a rider could apply directly with the linked axle’s lever or pedal.

The linked brakes are a rider aid, and do not replace proper braking techniques. The maximum vehicle deceleration on most surfaces is still reached by the rider applying both the front and rear brake controls.

A technical highlight of the system is its ability to measure lateral acceleration – the force the rider feels in turns – and adjust accordingly as that lateral force affects available traction. For example, the brake pressure required to limit wheel slip when cornering is typically lower than the pressure required under straight line operation, so when the system senses lateral acceleration that indicates the trike is cornering, the ABS response is adjusted accordingly. The action of Traction Control and linked braking also adjust based on lateral acceleration."

Weight - Fat Bob - 296kg, XDiavel - 220kg ... thats a difference of more than 25%

Not a fair comparo as one is a Cruiser and other is a Power Cruiser.

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

And my point about KTM was just to show that you wont even feel lack of "real life" performance with a D390 even on highways with superbikes. That doesnt mean D390 can be said to have same performance as them.

And what exactly is the point here mate. That ways even a Bajaj CT100 can keep up cruising speeds which kisses sweet spot of motorcycles two or even three times its engine size. So a CT100 can be compared to a Duke 390 in its own way as per your analogy, isn't it?

Exactly what i said in the beggining - the only positive of the bike is HD badge (for those who value it).

And it took them only 100+ years i.e. more than a century to build that name. Similar to Rolex or Blancpain which took them a long long time to build their brand name, whereas something like a US $5 quartz watch keeps better and accurate time than Rolex or Blancpain. But people who buy them Rolex or Blancpain know the value as you rightly mentioned.

If we remove it - its a mediocre motorcycle at best.

People say the same thing about Royal Enfield while sales charts speaks something else. As you rightly said it is for "people who value it."

PS: Pay Marvel enough and they might even feature the mighty CT100B in one of their movies

Why not mate? Remember Bond wearing a humble Casio AE1200WH digital watch instead of his Omega Seamaster in Casino Royale. There are some who idolize their screen idols and the products do click with "people who value it" for some it is Omega Seamaster while for some it is Casio AE1200WH.

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

The all-new Reflex Linked Brake system for 2019 Harley-Davidson Tri Glide Ultra and Freewheeler® three-wheeled motorcycles

Great that Harley is finally putting modern braking system in their Three-wheelers ..... do we know by when they will trickle down to their two wheelers ?

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Not a fair comparo as one is a Cruiser and other is a Power Cruiser.

Help educate me the difference between the two ? Except one has antiquated power figures while the others have modern engines with good power/torque output.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Great that Harley is finally putting modern braking system in their Three-wheelers ..... do we know by when they will trickle down to their two wheelers ?

They did mention of including it in their 2019 motorcycle line up and it is a good 6 months for 2019 to get over. So who knows by when they do it.

Help educate me the difference between the two ?

Sure mate read up about how Bajaj marketed Dominar 400 as a power cruiser even taking some design cues like tank mounted indicator console inspired from Ducati Diavel. I am sure it will make for an interesting read about power cruiser class of motorcycles.

Except one has antiquated power figures while the others have modern engines with good power/torque output.

This statement is so very similar to Bajaj Dominar vs RE CL series vis a vis power/torque/performance/features, etc.

But as mentioned before it all depends on "people who value it."

[sam_babushka]

Harley Davidsons, HOGs, the 'Brotherhood' are the result of extremely well thought out, and executed, marketing plans, the objective of which are to instil a sense of exclusivity amongst owners, and create an aura of aspiration around all others. Every brand has to reinvent itself to avoid the pitfalls of becoming irrelevant, and to sustain for the future. A smaller capacity bike is the IV Harley desperately needs to save itself from extinction, and avoid it to become yet another Chinese owned brand. My personal observation purely

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

And looks?

Iron 883 is one of my favourites from the brand, regardless of the price - but the same cannot be said about the Street 750, which was just like an Avenger with a little more muscle.

It's not merely about the looks, at least not for the user's who've inherently been riding Harley's,

A quote lifted from an Int. HD Forum:

I ride a Harley. If I wanted a Honda, I'd buy a Honda. There are more and more people on this forum that need to visit the local Honda shop and quit riding Harleys for the cool factor. Man up and get what you really want.

The reason the Street series as well as the V-Rod series are not considered as real Harley's is because of them belonging to the Revolution Engine platform which even though was co-developed with Porsche is believed to be blasphemous by purists due to its OHC configuration.

What makes things subjectively worse is that this started bringing in new millennial owners who simply got a Harley for the bling factor and had no clue about the real pedigree of Harley's and their OHV lineage, most of these guys couldn't even change their own oil, hence the disparity which festered over time and is what we see today.

Give things some time and you'll see Pushrod RE owner's loose their minds when RE announces their new line of Bullet/Classics/Thunderbirds with OHC's instead of OHV's.

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

most of these guys couldn't even change their own oil, hence the disparity which festered over time and is what we see today.

Sorry but how is knowing or not knowing how to change oil relevant to the bike's ownership or which model's HD launches ?

As far as the so called "HD Purists" are concerned - well thank god they are a dying breed. Instead of worrying about their outdated notions of a "Real HD" - Harley should focus on making modern motorcycles - if it means liquid cooled high performance engines - so be it.

PS: RE owners loose their minds on simple color and lettering on new RE bike launches and throw theirs in the garbage dump. So why would anyone take them seriously ?

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Sorry but how is knowing or not knowing how to change oil relevant to the bike's ownership or which model's HD launches ?

When motorcycles had their own share of challenges i.e the Pushrod's, not every Tom, Dick or Harry could really ride one and by that I mean clock some serious miles on them, hence the ubiquitous choice was to get a Japanese motorcycle.

This changed when Harley brought out the Revolution platform which caused a shift in buyer preferences as just about anyone in the market for a motorcycle could have a go at a Harley and that is something that the purists didn't see eye to eye with. A similar case being the increased number of RE's on the road after the UCE motor came out and a purist RE enthusiasts dislike for the same as well as for those riding them.

Though discrimination is not justifiable we surely can sympathize to an extent at least because not all of us ride for the cheap thrills just the way not all of us are in it for the long hauls.

As far as the so called "HD Purists" are concerned - well thank god they are a dying breed. Instead of worrying about their outdated notions of a "Real HD" - Harley should focus on making modern motorcycles - if it means liquid cooled high performance engines - so be it.

Survival is one thing but it is not always viable for brands such as Harley's who sell their products based on emotion rather than value because if it were the latter then there are better folks out there who offer way more of it.

Anyhow, all we can do is speculate, lets see how things fare in the times to come.

PS: RE owners loose their minds on simple color and lettering on new RE bike launches and throw theirs in the garbage dump. So why would anyone take them seriously ?

This is a good example of what happens when a brand opens up to the masses, a few years ago I used to commute 700~800km's bi-weekly between KA and KL, on the interstate I've made friends with many RE riders who were riding pre-UCE machines and though they take a day or two more than me(I reach the same day) and ride at lazy paces of 50~60kmph they knew all that there is to know about motorcycle maintenance and quite frankly had character, these riders would never bother about what RE as a company does as long as they get their spares.

The new generation of RE owners post the UCE era is what we see today, crying and moaning for the pettiest of reasons and pulling off media stunts as the ones you've mentioned.

Though there are both types of riders who use both types of machines, general perception is formed by the majority and hence not much we can do about it except try to see things with an open mind.

[marcussantiago]

The problem is that Harley painted themselves into a corner by appealing only to its core base for decades. The base grew up, grew old, and cemented the brand as something only old dudes buy. The perceived snobbery of Harley purists looking down their nose at anything that isn't a gigantic American-made V-twin that makes a lot of noise and performs like something from the 1960s, didn't appeal to the younger crowd, for some strange reason.

To try and imagine what this is like, imagine you're in your twenties, earning money, and it's time to buy a new car. Would you ever go for a Classic Ambassador, an unchanged relic from your father and grandfather's time? Sure, that makes your dads and uncles get all misty-eyed with nostalgia and the good old days. But everyone in your circle of friends would laugh at you! Especially if it cost the same or more than any modern brand on sale. And especially if the sales people looked down at you for being a silly kid who doesn't understand the heritage and history and pride behind that badge and blah blah blah.

This is where Harley is right now in the west.

Combine this with the explosion of the middle class in China and India, where there's a bigger market of people that would buy a bike than the entire Western hemisphere combined, and the world changed and left Harley behind.

So now Harley's pulling out all the stops to innovate and survive, simple as that. It's all well and good harping on about heritage and history and an emotional connection to your customer base and whatnot but you still have to pay the bills.

Side note: Also, that kind of rhetoric works when you're selling an unmistakably good product to go along with all the brochure literature hype. Harleys are, by every possible standard you can use, just meh. They're like America's Royal Enfield, constantly touting their WW2 heritage and classic charm and whatnot. And by the way, even Royal Enfield figured out that they can't play that card forever, and started breaking their own mould with the 650 twins and whatnot.

All that said, Harley's absolutely on the right track. A 338 cc bike might make Americans and Europeans roll their eyes and laugh, but for the Asian market that's a KTM-Duke-390-sized shock to the system. Adventure travel is cooler than ever in this age of Instagram and vlogging, so Harley's making an adventure bike. Electric vehicles are the future, and not a distant future, so they're already racing to put out an actual electric bike in the showroom, not just a PR-friendly concept bike that will never get built.

If you were running Harley, in this day and age, with all the challenges and problems they're facing, what would you do differently?

[anjan_c2007]

I would rather label it as a short sighted move, lacking vision and long term strategy, that hurts the brand equity and image of the iconic Harley Davidson marque. It is always preferable to change over the brand name to a new one, for the less premium (for our market) bikes, with the 338 cc engine that HD plans to manufacture here and in other markets.

It is like GM teaming up with SAIC of China to bring a bad reputation to the old time brand Chevrolet, letting it down with the SAIC-GM cars launched in India and elsewhere. GM could have used a new brand name for such cars rather than maul the brand "Chevrolet."

We are not sure as to whether Chinese roots from Qianjiang Motorcycle Company Limited, will, go down well with the Indian buyers for the 338 cc bike. Given a choice, most may prefer the competition rather than a HD with such a "marriage of convenience" origin.

The US President calls for a 0 % duty on HD bike imports into India very often in his speeches and tweets, which is quite debatable and may never be accepted by our government. The POTUS never however quotes import duties on the Ford Mustang or Jeep products but HD is firmly entrenched in his mindset.

And given the severe headwinds that the US- China trade relations are facing presently, the future of this HD- QMCL marriage cannot be predicted, at least with optimism.