[bdutta]

Dear Mods, have tried to search for an appropriate thread to post this under, but only found two threads that seem to conclude on "sell the bike". I'm not willing to let go of this bike due to strong emotional attachment with it. Worst case, she can spend her sunset years in my garage. However, if you do find a more appropriate thread to merge this into, kindly do help.



Dear Friends,


As may be evidenced from my plea to the mods, I have this 1997 HH Splendor with around 65K miles on it. It has been maintained quite well. On two occasions when I was away for extended periods of time (1.5 years and 2 years), the bike key engine parts (carburetor, bore, piston etc.) were disassembled by an authorized HH SS and stored in safe place. Had got it reassembled by them upon my return. Barring initial 2 years of ownership where I had a daily run of about 45Kms, after that the usage was limited to short runs, which might explain low miles on the meter. The bike had been serviced for initial 8 years or so of ownership exclusively at HH SSs, but post that at trusty FNGs. After all these years and change of 5-6 cars, the bike is still with me (and hopefully shall continue to be with me). However, in the last 4-5 months, I've started having trouble where the engine seems to splutter, choke, cough (not exactly sure how to describe) while running, especially at higher RPMs. In the last 6 months, I've had to change her spark-plug (every time genuine Bosch has been used) some 4-5 times, i.e. 1 spark plug lasts about 4 weeks. After cleaning the plug socket/bay and changing spark-plug she is as good as new. Always a one-kick start bike. However, I have realized the pattern that if the bike is stressed even slightly more than usual (fast acceleration) she'd start spluttering, missing, choking randomly at first, then more frequently, finally leading to a state where she'd refuse to start. The FNG seemed to be at loss, but another garage (which I visited during one such emergency halt due to bike refusing to startup after a shutdown midway, in warm state) suggested that the valve may need replacement (or that's what I thought he said). Now, the FNG came back saying that he thinks that it is time to change the carburator.


How good is the diagnosis and prescription ? I guess there are serious experts here who'd know better.


kind regards,
BD

[Mr.Boss]

Originally Posted by bdutta

I've started having trouble where the engine seems to splutter, choke, cough (not exactly sure how to describe) while running, especially at higher RPMs. In the last 6 months, I've had to change her spark-plug (every time genuine Bosch has been used) some 4-5 times, i.e. 1 spark plug lasts about 4 weeks. After cleaning the plug socket/bay and changing spark-plug she is as good as new.

With the phenomena you mentioned, it could be anything from the electrical system, head, cylinder & bore.

Regarding the plug failure,
if it gets chocked in oil - suspect Piston / Cylinder / rings (Oil getting into combustion chamber will leave a noticeable smoke through exhaust, along with drop in engine oil quantity)
if the spark intensity is getting reduced - check all the coils, CDI & wiring

[aargee]

Originally Posted by bdutta

How good is the diagnosis and prescription ? I guess there are serious experts here who'd know better

Before jumping to expensive troubleshooting, please start easy. Do the following strictly in the same order as prescribed & do let us know the outcome

1. Ensure the inside of the tank is not rusted
2. Clean the tank no matter rusted or not, drain out all fuel & leave it to Sun for drying
3. Clean carb, air filter & if possible use a new spark plug or clean the existing one to look brand new
4. You're using 20W40 engine oil isn't it? Give a try with Shell 10W40 Semi Synth. Trust me, its far superior to 20W40
5. Assemble back everything
6. Buy fresh petrol from a reputed fuel pump (where the sales is more) & then report back here if the issue is still observed

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by bdutta

Dear Friends,

Pull the plug and post a picture.

If its anything like this, then start with the carburetor;



Picture borrowed from a fellow enthusiasts query, the spark plug is sooty black but not wet, if its wet with oil then there are other things to worry about, which we'll get to as and when the need arises.

[bdutta]

Originally Posted by Mr.Boss

Regarding the plug failure,
if it gets chocked in oil - suspect Piston / Cylinder / rings (Oil getting into combustion chamber will leave a noticeable smoke through exhaust, along with drop in engine oil quantity)

Thanks. That was one of the first things 2 different mechanics asked as well. Now I do see white smoke from exhaust, and I do not see thick black smoke either, but the exhaust does smell of unburnt fuel, I think. Very high revving on neutral does give out some light darkish smoke.

Originally Posted by aargee

Before jumping to expensive troubleshooting, please start easy. Do the following strictly in the same order as prescribed & do let us know the outcome
1. Ensure the inside of the tank is not rusted
2. Clean the tank no matter rusted or not, drain out all fuel & leave it to Sun for drying
3. Clean carb, air filter & if possible use a new spark plug or clean the existing one to look brand new
4. You're using 20W40 engine oil isn't it? Give a try with Shell 10W40 Semi Synth. Trust me, its far superior to 20W40
5. Assemble back everything
6. Buy fresh petrol from a reputed fuel pump (where the sales is more) & then report back here if the issue is still observed

The bike was serviced 3 weeks back (by FNG - who is well known to do a decent job), an also the air filter was changed, a new spark plug was put at same time, and engine oil was changed, but since I didn't specific a type/brand, I suspect the most common/cheapest variety might have been used. I buy petrol from one of the 2-3 different Indian Oil pumps within Bangalore city (high traffic ones). However, I'm not sure if carburetor has been cleaned in quite a while. Anyhow will try to follow those steps. Thanks again.

[Mr.Boss]

Originally Posted by bdutta

Now I do see white smoke from exhaust

Should be one of the below cause
- Damaged valve guide
- Valve stem bend (or wear)
- Piston, Cylinder, Rings wear

Check if there is a drop in engine oil level

[Gansan]

If you intend to keep the bike, have the engine reconditioned by a good mechanic. Buy a new engine head,bore and piston kit, replace all bearings and seals. If the Crank case is good or can be reconditioned with minimal work retain it, or replace that too. Then you will be good to go for another 60k-70k KM.

That is what I did with my Splendor, though it had done 105k KM by then. It has done another 50k now, absolutely no issues.

As for petrol tank cleaning, be wary of it. I did not clean mine because it was in regular use. Some mechanics clean the tank by throwing in lot of bolts and nuts, fill it with some solvent and shake it a lot in the name of cleaning. It can cause scoring inside the tank and worsen the rusting if there is any.

[ashwinprakas]

Ain't it too early to gun at evasive means?

The OP is yet to read his Spark plug which is the primary indicator of engine condition, simply replacing parts or going for a rebuild doesn't quite make sense without actually diagnosing the issue at hand.

Reason for insisting to do a reading is because the earlier photo I'd shared was of a fellow enthusiasts motorcycle that the SVC convinced him to be put through head decarbonization(SCAM!) And even after the procedure the plugs were fouling and the motorcycle was emitting smoke, he was asked to rebuild the head!

Luckily he posted a query(the picture) and it was clear as daylight that the motorcycle was running uber rich, a little fiddling around with the carburettor and the motorcycle was running as good as new.

He was able to cut his losses at 5k for the decarbonization being thankful that he'd not opted for the rebuild as per the SCV's advice.

And as for running rich, it's better to run lean than rich as running rich tends to result in 'Bore Wash' a phenomenon where the excess fuel in the AFR tends to clean out bore lubrication resulting in accelerated cylinder wear, which leads to oil consumption.

So to reiterate, diagnose before following remedial measures just out of the blue, especially evasive ones.

Cheers,
A.P.

[abhi9044]

Hello Everyone,
In this lockdown period, today I tried firing up my Dad's Splendor. What i found was quite shocking. After starting there was some tik-tik noise from the magnet cover, which after the engine warmed up vanished. I believe that this was indeed the crank noise. The bike was regularly serviced but till date the centrifugal filter nor the oil filter has been cleaned, neither have the valves been adjusted. It has done around 47,000 kms till date and is 17 years old. Now that noise from crank has really got me worried. I wonder if there is any problem. But maybe it was due to the fact that the bike was standing on the side stand for quite a while and all the oil drained out from the bearings. Second reason I suspect is the oil. Hero Honda used to recommend 20w40 for this engine back in the days but these service centers irrespective of the model year have used 10w30 in all bikes.Could this lead to increases clearance in the crank due to enhanced wear and tear? I did the last oil change myself and poured in 10w40 Mobil Super Moto (Semi Synthetic).
Another concern was that there was noise from the timing chain which was present even when the engine warmed up. So decided to pull out the cam chain tensioner and see what's going on with that. To my surprise this is what I found



The rubber plug had this indent, whereas the tensioner itself had these cracks.





These cracks were not due to metal fatigue but it seemed like the top layer of the metal had eroded. Although the tensioner itself was fine and was holding the pressure nicely but still should I be replacing it?
After the spring was elongated and and placed back in the bike even then the cam chain noise didn't disappear. I'm guessing that the cam chain is now asking for a replacement. Also should I be replacing the oil pump gear since that is very much prone to failing on these bikes.

Thanks.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by abhi9044

After starting there was some tik-tik noise from the magnet cover, which after the engine warmed up vanished.

The timing chain tensioner is a rudimentary setup on the Splendor and rests behind the Magneto. You could manually inspect if something is out of whack, ideally this is supposed to be a fail-proof system.

Now coming to clatter that shows up when the engine is turned on but vanishes a short while after is usually the result of poor oil circulation and the first point of concern should be your oil pump, cause a weak oil pump takes time to send oil to the head which would result in clatter that would go away after warming up.

I believe that this was indeed the crank noise.

Crank noise doesn't go away like that, be it crank bearing howling or piston slap.

Plus on a half decently maintained machine the crank would last 100k km's at the least before acting up.

the centrifugal filter nor the oil filter has been cleaned, neither have the valves been adjusted.

If there is no clatter from the valves feel free to ignore, my P220's valves haven't been adjusted since purchase and she has clocked about 50~60k km's now.

As for the Centrifugal filter, the one on the commuter Honda and Kawasaki's are huge, would take more than 50k km's before it gets clogged.

Here's a picture of the rotor on a friends Splendor, the motorcycle had IIRC 60~70k km's and we'd opened her up a day before an interstate run to change the clutch plates, the rotor filter was perfectly clean.



My friend was the one taking photos and he didn't know what to snap, hence do not have a picture of the inside, but trust me it was clean.

As for the strainer, it would ideally be clean provided oil changes are religiously performed.

It has done around 47,000 kms till date and is 17 years old.

Not a matter of concern, these machines are heirlooms handed over from generation to generation, 50k km's is just scratching the surface.

But maybe it was due to the fact that the bike was standing on the side stand for quite a while and all the oil drained out from the bearings.

The Oil Pump is what feeds the bearings oil, so if it is working fine then you shouldn't worry about oil pooling etc, as it sucks oil from the base of the case i.e where the strainer is.

Second reason I suspect is the oil. Hero Honda used to recommend 20w40 for this engine back in the days but these service centers irrespective of the model year have used 10w30 in all bikes.Could this lead to increases clearance in the crank due to enhanced wear and tear? I did the last oil change myself and poured in 10w40 Mobil Super Moto (Semi Synthetic).

You can use any oil you want provided you do not extend drain intervals, using 10W30 instead of 20W40 wouldn't hamper engine life drastically, my CT100B is recommended to run on 10W30, I've been running 20W50/15W40 without a care in the world and its not even motorcycle oil.

So basically, change interval makes all the difference.

Another concern was that there was noise from the timing chain which was present even when the engine warmed up.

If you're 100% sure its the timing chain then replace the timing chain kit along with the tensioner kit to give you peace of mind, which case change the oil pump as well.

If possible take the head and cylinder off and inspect for play on the con-rod, just jerk the piston up an down, if there is movement with the crank remaining stationary then you have play, though if at all there was play you'd be getting piston slap.

Since you're taking the head off do change the piston rings as well.

All this is not needed, but ideally if I take the effort to open anything I make sure everything consumable component in the vicinity is also replaced as it'd prevent the need to get my hands dirty in short succession.

Regards,
A.P.

[abhi9044]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Now coming to clatter that shows up when the engine is turned on but vanishes a short while after is usually the result of poor oil circulation and the first point of concern should be your oil pump, cause a weak oil pump takes time to send oil to the head which would result in clatter that would go away after warming up.


Crank noise doesn't go away like that, be it crank bearing howling or piston slap.

As for the Centrifugal filter, the one on the commuter Honda and Kawasaki's are huge, would take more than 50k km's before it gets clogged.

Thank you sir for your valuable feedback. I guess my first step will be opening up the clutch cover and then inspecting the Oil Stainer as well as Centrifugal Filter and cleaning them if dirty. If they are clean then i would suspect the oil pump gear behind the magnet. If that is also good then definitely the suspect will be the oil pump. Also there is no noise from the head although I would be opening up the timing chain cover to inspect the same.
On a side note do I have to use a Impact Driver for opening up the screws of the centrifugal filter or an ordinary phillips head would do? I'm still a student and that means I've got limited financial reserves.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

If you're 100% sure its the timing chain then replace the timing chain kit along with the tensioner kit to give you peace of mind, which case change the oil pump as well.

Regards,
A.P.

I guess I'll be going ahead and replacing the timing chain kit for that complete peace of mind. I think that it has failed so early because of my dad's habit itself. He used to rev the bike(like 20-30%) during every cold start in the morning. Well I'm not blaming him, since that is how everyone in his company use to start their vehicles back in the days. And as they say, old habits die hard. Although now after I told him about the consequences he is more gentle with the throttle during the cold starts. Better late than never.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by abhi9044

do I have to use a Impact Driver for opening up the screws of the centrifugal filter or an ordinary phillips head would do? I'm still a student and that means I've got limited financial reserves.

An Impact Driver and a Mallet would set you back by 1k, it makes life easy, else you can do just fine with a regular screw driver and block of wood.

Commonsense is of the essence when dealing with stubborn screws without an Impact Driver, put body weight on the screw, once there's enough weight that the screw wouldn't slip, continue applying turning force and tap the screw drivers end with the wooden block. Prime importance is to make sure that you do not deform the head of the screw.

It is something that should ideally come naturally but then there are guys like myself without any mechanical background who mess-up quite a few screws and bolts before mastering the required finesse.

P.S. When we changed the clutch on my friends Splendor we didn't have access to an Impact Driver, so it was opened the old-school way. Also do not that the Splendor's rotor filter and clutch hub uses slotted nuts irritatingly of two different pitches, so do go to you nearby spares shop and source the driver specifically for the Splendor.

It looks like this:



They all look alike, so do make sure to get the ones specifically made for the Splendor.

Although now after I told him about the consequences he is more gentle with the throttle during the cold starts. Better late than never.

I doubt revving the engine cold would cause such aggravated wear and tear, especially on this engine.

After all this 'sloper' engine was built by Honda to account for such kind of use, one of the intent of sticking with the sloper design was to ensure that the top end was lubricated as soon as the motor was fired up by negating gravity from the equation.

I recall reading that on the original motor big daddy Honda wanted the engine to survive poor maintenance of the worst kind seen in rural Asia, the engine surviving extended drain intervals was one of his requirements and a reason why I believe these motors have humongous centrifugal filters.

I'm also guessing Kawasaki borrowed the design philosophy with the 4S Champion cause other than the Honda derived motors and the Kawasaki 100's used by Bajaj I've not seen any other motorcycle sport such a huge rotor filter.

Rotor Filter on my P220 for comparison:



I was used to these robust 200~250cc motorcycles and the first time I saw my CT100's rotor filter I was in for a surprise.

Cheers,
A.P.