[KushKaun]

Since the time when I started to think about the technical aspects of a motorcycle apart from the fact that they can be ridden with joy was the refinement of a bike engine. Like how we have been told since childhood that India is a developing country and still counts the same, I have been hearing and experiencing the fact that only the Japanese made engines are really silent and refined, but when it comes to home made engines the refinement or the silent treatment is missing and it still continues (sparring the well refined Mojo engine)

My questions to the technical gurus out there is:

• Is refinement only majorly a Japanese thing?

• Also in terms of reliability the Japanese soar ahead when compared to others, can't the other companies just reverse engineer the Japanese?

• Is the extra cost of the Japanese bikes because they earned the reputation of being reliable and smooth and that takes economic effort to maintain?

Just few questions out of some observations. What can we Indian manufactures do to gain that Japanese heart ?

[ashwinprakas]

Refinement is a term as ambiguous as 'Contentment' is in the Indian subcontinent.

Generally people consider refinement as lack of vibrations, well, sorry to break it you you but there isn't a motorcycle out there that doesn't vibrate, the only difference being the degree of it which depends on the state of tune.

You want more oomph! you get more vibes and vice versa!

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by KushKaun

I have been hearing and experiencing the fact that only the Japanese made engines are really silent and refined, but when it comes to home made engines the refinement or the silent treatment is missing and it still continues (sparring the well refined Mojo engine)

Not really, maybe there was a time like that but if you ride the new Apache RTR 162 4V, it is as smooth as the Yamaha FZ or the Suzuki Gixxer. Even the new Royal Enfield twins certainly have got it right in eliminating much of the vibrations the RE singles are notoriously known for.

My questions to the technical gurus out there is:

• Is refinement only majorly a Japanese thing?

• Also in terms of reliability the Japanese soar ahead when compared to others, can't the other companies just reverse engineer the Japanese?

• Is the extra cost of the Japanese bikes because they earned the reputation of being reliable and smooth and that takes economic effort to maintain?

[/quote]

The halo behind the Japanese engineering is more of a perception these days - much like how many people still blindly believe that any Maruti is cheap to maintain - though we have complex cars in the Maruti stable that cost as much as any other similar car when it comes to maintenance.

I am not saying Japanese engineering is overrated, I am just saying that it is no longer a USP - with almost all manufacturers catching up with the Japanese in terms of quality and reliability. A Bajaj, or a TVS or a Mahindra would probably be just as reliable as a Suzuki or Yamaha or a Honda can be.

[roy_libran]

Is an ultra-refined motorcycle engine actually desirable?
Does it not become, errrrr like a splend* /scoot*, then?

For me a motorcycle has always been one that need draw the rider into a tight, somewhat rough copulation, to use a word, when riding.

[highlander]

Is refinement only majorly a Japanese thing?

The definition of refined varies from person to person.
A lot of non-Japanese bikes are refined as well.

Also in terms of reliability the Japanese soar ahead when compared to others, can't the other companies just reverse engineer the Japanese?

This is top-down approach and Japanese in a lot of cases are engineering years ahead. In a lot of industries (including automotive), it is hard to catch up. Here is a good podcast which talks the Japanese approach way back: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015
Fun Fact: This factory now makes the best electric cars in world.

Is the extra cost of the Japanese bikes because they earned the reputation of being reliable and smooth and that takes economic effort to maintain?

Yes, quality does come with a price. Of course only an insider can comment if the additional cost is all due to quality or how much of it is padding the margins.

Just few questions out of some observations. What can we Indian manufactures do to gain that Japanese heart ?

An Indian manufacturer, has to basically think outside the box to outshine the counterpart -- this needn't be just engineering, it can also be marketing, making new vehicle category etc.

An example in scooter segment in TVS Jupiter. Indian manufacturer, had to create a very competent product to make it the number #2 seller. In fact, it is better than #1 selling scooter.

All TATA cars have more space per car than counterparts -- From Nano till Hexa. Space conscious folks cannot overlook this USP.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by KushKaun

My questions to the technical gurus out there is:

• Is refinement only majorly a Japanese thing?

• Also in terms of reliability the Japanese soar ahead when compared to others, can't the other companies just reverse engineer the Japanese?

• Is the extra cost of the Japanese bikes because they earned the reputation of being reliable and smooth and that takes economic effort to maintain?

Japanese engines are generally more refined and more reliable than the rest. Refinement is due to the fact that they are not tuned to perform to their maximum potential, and reliability is due to the fact that they usually go with age-old proven technology and are the leading nation in terms of quality control. One look at how consistently punctual their bullet-trains are (you get a certificate which you can hand over to your employer if a train is more than 5 minutes late), and the level of respect they provide to strangers even (like no talking on the cell-phone while using public transport), will give you an idea about how seriously they might take something like quality control. You must read the case of Japan Airlines Flight 123 which crashed in 1985; even though Boeing's own technicians were at fault for not properly repairing the rear pressure bulkhead from a previous incident, as they did not conform to Boeing's approved repair methods, the Japan Airlines president, resigned, maintenance manager killed himself, and engineer who had inspected and cleared the aircraft, committed suicide. Now think about how seriously the nation as a whole takes such matters.

To answer your question about reverse-engineering, yes it is possible, maintaining the same levels of quality control might prove to be a bit difficult though BUT why bother trying to compete with the Japanese at something they are already the leaders at? This is what the design house Kiska, which was integral to the restructuring and growth of KTM, said when they decided to throw versatility, refinement and reliability out of the window in favor of cutting edge design and outright performance.

Lastly, there is no extra cost involved in owning a Japanese bike as such. Resale value is definitely better, but the fact that they might seem expensive to you is due to other reasons like import duties that our nation slaps on imported products, higher labor costs etc. European bikes and cars are generally speaking, the most expensive with Japanese products being cheaper and local 3rd world country offerings, struggling to compete at an even lower price-point.