[Red Liner]

Great review and comparison tale between the current Big 4 of the low capacity ADV/Dual sport motorcycles actually on sale: VStrom 250 vs Versys X 300 vs BMW GS310 vs Honda CRF 250 Rally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ol99luyTQ

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

300X was in consideration for my quest for a (relatively) light weight adv bike, but the pricing killed it. I am not even going out of my way to take a test ride of the bike. Idea was to sell the versys 650 and get a light weight bike which is more maneagable but guess the wait is become longer now. Hope the baby GS or the Xpulse is out sooner then speculated. Not even mentioning the 390 adv here - the ghost which only exists in peoples mind. 650 himalayan is exciting (torque ), but i guess that is at-least couple of years ahead plus another year for the new product to settle-in.
Is TVS planning any adv variant based on RR310??

Same with me - the price definitely killed it for me. If Kawa can price X300 at these levels, BMW will definitely price the GS at 5lakh+. Again no-no for me. And I have given up on Hero. Xpulse. If at all it launches, it will turn out to be another splendor with adv styling

All my hopes are on TVS variant of baby GS.

[nasirkaka]

^^^ Is the versys650 difficult to manage in city? Wondering how you are planning to downgrade to 200-300cc from 650. I am eyeing V650 from my Ninja 300. Can you elaborate your thoughts please?

Versys 650 is a capable and comfortable motorcycle, actually quite suited for touring in Indian conditions. Initially i did find it tall and big and heavy to handle but down the line, got used to it and also got the lowering kit installed. Now the bike is only as tall as a pulsar. Not like a Duke 200 but this versys is pretty manageable in city as well. Just that with a big top box which can accommodate two full face helmets, its not the easiest to weave through traffic.
Why i want to downgrade is that i am not using the versys 650 to its potential. Using it mainly for daily commuting to work in Bangalore and weekend breakfast rides whereas the bike is meant to explore length and breadth of India. Secondly, i have used it for about 20k kms and am sort of bored of it and looking forward to a change. Am not a speed freak and usually ride slow so downgrading the engine may not matter much personally. Lastly, i do not like a few things about versys 650, mainly lack of low end torque (my other bike is a bonnie SE 865, the torque monster), and a lot of buzz and vibrations from various fairing components. Am looking for a light weight adventure bike which can be thrown around without worrying too much on damages and service, spares and maintenance cost which are very high with these big bikes. Versys X300 did not really completely fit my requirements, but was under consideration mainly for lack of other available options. Now the pricing it a let down. So the wait for light weight and easy on pocket adv motorcycle continues.

[Urban_Nomad]

These new ADV bikes better blow my mind!

The way my 390 is currently set up, it is very close to what I want from a motorcycle today. Some mods:

- Raised the bike using fork spacers : More ground clearance, less forward pitch, slightly slower steering; but nothing a ride or two wont get you comfortable with. Same as this - http://deelipmenezes.com/project-ktm...e-fork-spacers

- Off road footpegs with serrated teeth, mounted 5+ inches forward and about an inch lower than stock : If you can visualize (apologies don't have any pics handy. Backed up my phone's data yesterday), the footpegs are now where the swing arm pivot point is (where it meets the frame), and an inch lower. GODDDDDDDD, this has TRANSFORMED the bike. Standing up and riding hard is no problem. Just the general comfort has improved by a 1000%, no exaggeration. A big factor for my sciatica ridden body. I doubt if I would have been able to have so much fun riding to Spiti if it wasn't for this (and the above) mod

- Knobby tyres : Front is a Michelin Sirac, rear is vee Rubber VRM 193. Will be changing to Sport Demons soon. The rear is at the end of its life at ~3000 Kms

The one and only thing missing here, a proper suspension. The travel isn't a problem. In fact it actually has more travel than the Versys 300 or even the 650. But it is definitely harsh and not adjustable (rear - only preload). Honestly, if I can figure out a cost effective method to get around this (springs?), I wouldn't bother for a second with these new bike launches

I would ideally want something like the CRF 250 Rally @ sub 3 lac (HA!), but the Baby GS might just turn out to be my Baby Jesus and end this never ending wait for something fun and light that doesn't cost the world

[Red Liner]

Hey urban, get in line mate! Theres a whole bunch of us waiting for that proverbial light weight adv bike that doesn't cost a lot but goes like stink!

[nasirkaka]

@Urban_Nomad,
390 is a potent donor bike for adventure provided one has time, patience and lots of money. Indimotard had converted a couple of 390s and they looked terrific and to the point. But those shocks itself would have costed close to a lakh. Myself had done some basic mods to my 390 to make it touring friendly like a tall windscreen, handle bar risers, aux lights, luggage frame, etc but giveup and jumped to versys 650 when it was launched. Few issues i had with 390, which i use to constantly highlight even in the 390 thread was stiff suspension, hard seat and vibey nature of engine, rear set pegs and had to keep the revs high to enjoy the bike.
Going by international reviews, baby GS does not seem like built for off road or inline of CRF250, but more like a road bike with a bit of capability to go off road. Should work for most, in our conditions, if priced well.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Hey urban, get in line mate! Theres a whole bunch of us waiting for that proverbial light weight adv bike that doesn't cost a lot but goes like stink!

Apologies for my impertinence sir. I shall even save you a spot in this goddamn line

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

@Urban_Nomad,
390 is a potent donor bike for adventure provided one has time, patience and lots of money.

And I have neither

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

Indimotard had converted a couple of 390s and they looked terrific and to the point. But those shocks itself would have costed close to a lakh

Actually, these are some random Taiwanese forks. Not sure of the rear shock though but it definitely wasn't top shelf Ohlins type stuff

The forks have a travel of roughly 10 - 11 inches and cost Rs 25K. But that's not all, you see. You will get new brake lines, disc, master cylinder et al from the Enfield thunderbird (Yuck). Then your choice of front (spoke) rim in 17, 19 or 21 inches. Rims are cheap, but its expensive to get the hubs, catcher, spacers etc custom made. Will take the cost northward of 50K for sure. Even after all this, you will be playing around with fork settings and it wont exactly be plug and play. So like you said, lots of money + time to be spent. Even after all that, what you basically have is a "Jugaad"

I want something straight from the factory that doesn't need me to fiddle around with much except very basic stuff like different handlebars / risers (Example - some reviews of the GS mention that the bars are too low for proper stand up riding)

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

Myself had done some basic mods to my 390 to make it touring friendly like a tall windscreen, handle bar risers, aux lights, luggage frame, etc but giveup and jumped to versys 650 when it was launched.

Ya. Unfortunately these mods don't really do much from a comfort standpoint. Some of the things on the 390 are needlessly aggressive, the biggest hindrance (per me personally) are the footpegs that are simply too far back. Even a 800 km (To and fro) ride left my legs "frozen" for the next few days

In comparison, imagine this...

I came back from Spiti, washed up, sat for a couple of hours with some guests who were over, Ran around with my kid, later dropped my wife and child to the railway station ... all with a smile on my face

THATS the difference!!!

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

..stiff suspension

Agreed 100%

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

hard seat

The seat is surprisingly comfortable. No numb butt and extremely supportive. Or maybe I am just accustomed to it

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

and vibey nature of engine

Not really a thing for me, but I come from riding an Enfield so...

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

rear set pegs

Biggest issue IMO

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

and had to keep the revs high to enjoy the bike

Performance post 4K is very acceptable. The problem is choppy fuelling at low RPMs, which one can somewhat counter by going a gear higher and slipping the clutch

Originally Posted by nasirkaka

Going by international reviews, baby GS does not seem like built for off road or inline of CRF250, but more like a road bike with a bit of capability to go off road. Should work for most, in our conditions, if priced well.

I am very clear with where this bike will be used.

- Daily commute
- Short Tours out of town. Seldom with a pillion
- Weekend trail riding, nothing very gnarly
- One tour a year where man and machine will do well with some off road cred (Spiti / Bhutan types)

I think the GS will absolutely shine here. What is rather infuriating is the fact that:

- The bike is currently in production
- In our very own country no less
- But is not available for sale to us 3rd world aspirants

[naturaldisaster]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

I am very clear with where this bike will be used.

- Daily commute
- Short Tours out of town. Seldom with a pillion
- Weekend trail riding, nothing very gnarly
- One tour a year where man and machine will do well with some off road cred (Spiti / Bhutan types)

Xpulse: If you can ignore the limited power, (didnt bother us 10 years back,) fits all your needs.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by naturaldisaster

Xpulse: If you can ignore the limited power, (didnt bother us 10 years back,) fits all your needs.

Ya, I just didn't find it very appealing. Looked like a Karol Bagh mod job to be honest

Even the engine output is not known but I don't have high hopes from it. Even the ones with a Karizma heart are kinda Meh! I own a bone stock impulse myself and don't think I need to even talk about the (lack of) power

For the boring straight highways, I want to be able to cruise at a fair speed so that I can get to the fun stuff quicker. Not sure the Xpulse would cut it. Plus I would happily pay more for the GS' power and rider aids like switchable ABS

[Red Liner]

Don't hold your hopes too high on the BMW GS 310 coming at a good sticker price as well as cheaper after sales. I doubt both of those will happen considering the number of service centers BMW plan to establish in india. I expect that number to be far less than kawasaki. BMW will money on the 310 series abroad and not in india. They did not build this bike keeping the indian market in mind, and since there is no equivalent bajaj to dictate pricing terms to a jv partner like BMW... Well.

I would not be surprised at all if the 310r goes up against the ninja 400 pricing and the gs310 against the versys x 300. Why would BMW be any lesser in brand value as opposed to kawasaki? And BMW just needs a presence in india. Their balance sheets are certainly not going to be dictated by volume sales here.

I think a hero x pulse would do very well. Train it or truck it to the nearest city like delhi or gauhati, and off you go. And considering the number of hero service centers that abound, i mean this bike has winner (for the right buying audience - explorers who have tasted bigger adv bikes and know there is no real exploring to be done on it) written all over it even before launch.

I also think the xpulse looks great, utilitarian, and just lithe. Enough for india until maybe a honda crf rally is out.

Ps. The impulse was way too ahead of its time, i dont think the motorcycle travel bug was that hot when it launched, people didnt really care about exploring places on 4 wheels, much less 2.

[nasirkaka]

Call me selfish, but i would not mind paying a bit premium for the BMW badge for the lovely G310GS. Would love to have little exclusivity which will be difficult if priced economically like the KTMs which sells in big numbers.

I want something straight from the factory that doesn't need me to fiddle around with much except very basic stuff like different handlebars / risers (Example - some reviews of the GS mention that the bars are too low for proper stand up riding)

I was at indimotard a few months back and had asked them about the modded 390. A similar mod would cost about 2L was what i was told, plus all the headache of waiting for parts to import and related hassles. So gaveup as gone are the days where there was stamina to spend days together at garage. As you rightly mentioned, straight from the factory is the answer and by the looks of it, we will have many options in adv segment in couple of years time.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Great review and comparison tale between the current Big 4 of the low capacity ADV/Dual sport motorcycles actually on sale: VStrom 250 vs Versys X 300 vs BMW GS310 vs Honda CRF 250 Rally

Here's another one, freshly cooked in the US and delivered just a couple of mins ago -

https://youtu.be/XepiztD8IEE

[naturaldisaster]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Ya, I just didn't find it very appealing. Looked like a Karol Bagh mod job to be honest

Even the engine output is not known but I don't have high hopes from it. Even the ones with a Karizma heart are kinda Meh! I own a bone stock impulse myself and don't think I need to even talk about the (lack of) power

For the boring straight highways, I want to be able to cruise at a fair speed so that I can get to the fun stuff quicker. Not sure the Xpulse would cut it. Plus I would happily pay more for the GS' power and rider aids like switchable ABS

From what i understand, it all comes done to money.

1) on road + more highway power = affordable
2) off road + less highway power = affordable
3) off road + more highway power = expensive
4) cheap on road bike + cheap off road mods = unreliable
5) cheap on road bike + good off road mods = expensive and not as reliable as proper off road bike

The more chini you add, the sweeter the kheer

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Don't hold your hopes too high on the BMW GS 310 coming at a good sticker price as well as cheaper after sales.

I am gonna stick my neck out and predict a ~3 lac price point for the Baby Jeebus. Not sure of after sales but again should not be heart attack inducing

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I doubt both of those will happen considering the number of service centers BMW plan to establish in india. I expect that number to be far less than kawasaki. BMW will money on the 310 series abroad and not in India.

I am no automotive pundit, but the motorcycle sales overseas are on a decline per a few reports. In India, the trend is more encouraging. Don't see why BMW wont want to capitalize on this and hedge all bets in a dwindling market. Isn't it better for them to simply come out and say - "Not for India"? Why are they even bothering with setting up service centers? What's the need for the charade? Why launch a product with an aim to fail?

Originally Posted by Red Liner

They did not build this bike keeping the indian market in mind, and since there is no equivalent bajaj to dictate pricing terms to a jv partner like BMW... Well.

Its made in India by TVS. Everyone knows that. BMW cant get away from that fact

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I would not be surprised at all if the 310r goes up against the ninja 400 pricing and the gs310 against the versys x 300

I am willing to bet you 10 Starbucks Grande Lattes it will be nowhere close to this prediction. Lets see

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Why would BMW be any lesser in brand value as opposed to kawasaki? And BMW just needs a presence in india. Their balance sheets are certainly not going to be dictated by volume sales here.

Is KTM a lesser brand? Even for all the arm twisting power Bajaj may have, they don't have the majority stake (47% ?). And call me a believer but I doubt there's any arm twisting going on there. Bajaj pulled a dying company out of doldrums. All that "cool" factor that KTM has, would have been dead years ago if it wasn't for Bajaj coming to their rescue. Post the Bajaj JV, KTM had posted a record growth and till at least a couple of years ago; was the company with the highest growth rate in the world

You may view this as arm twisting. To me - its a partnership where both have benefited with each other's existence

And going by your logic, the BMW would be around 4.5 lac? More? How? What do you think the road going G310 R will be priced at? Please remember, the only (equipment) differences between the 2 are:

- 2 inch extra suspension
- Luggage rack from the factory
- Plastic bits

Just think of the G310R standing next to a Katoom 390. Recollect all the reviews you may have seen. Now tell me, how much will the made in India G310 R cost? How much more will the GS cost over the R?

Another number - the legendary R 1200 GS starts at around 16 lac ex showroom (Source - https://autoportal.com/newbikes/bmw/r-1200-gs/). The (now discontinued) Triumph Exlplorer 1200 was around 18 I think. What happened to the BMW brand there, for their flagship no less?

BMW cannot afford to be so arrogant. Seppuku is a Japanese thing, well displayed by 300 X immediately upon its arrival. This European will have to be smarter

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think a hero x pulse would do very well. Train it or truck it to the nearest city like delhi or gauhati, and off you go. And considering the number of hero service centers that abound...

If and when Hero can spare resources from its Splendor sticker design department, we can discuss the bike's (perceived) merits. Its heartening to see the hate being showered on these guys in various online forums. I know someone in the family who works at Hero. Post the big man Munjal's demise, there is zero motivation anywhere in the organization to do something different. All that crap being dished out by the motorcycling junta to Hero is 100% deserved. I don't think the Xpulse will be launched; but would love for Hero to prove me wrong here

Off topic, but getting your motorcycle transported "safely" across the country is not the easiest of things. Moreover ... and this is just me; if I want to travel on 2 wheels; I want to travel on 2 wheels. Because my wheezy lethargic bike cant handle a simple highway run; I now need to consider alternate means of transport? I am NOT Ok with this. In that case, why even buy this bike? Why not travel via bus / train / Aircraft and rent a bike at your "adventure destination"?

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I also think the xpulse looks great, utilitarian, and just lithe. Enough for india until maybe a honda crf rally is out.

Maybe. Power figures are not known. And it better have awesome FI. Also, would actually prefer that the CRF 250 L be launched here. Cheaper, more manageable seat height

Honestly, the Himalayan could have helped fill the current void much better. But I think it would kill RE to churn one single bike out of the factory that runs straight and doesn't disintegrate into a million pieces

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Ps. The impulse was way too ahead of its time, i dont think the motorcycle travel bug was that hot when it launched, people didnt really care about exploring places on 4 wheels, much less 2.

Ha! As an owner of the Impulse, I can tell you there's nothing futuristic about the bike mate. It was half baked ... period

Hero was simply not able to pull their head out of the commuter motorcycle hole, and its evident in the final product. Wheezy engine that just about works in a commuter environment, a suspension that eats up half its travel if you weigh upwards of 70 Kilos, forks that bend if you try jumping it hard, it gasps for air if you take it any higher than Shimla, footpegs placed so far ahead that if I were to slide back in my seat, I could almost fool myself that I was riding a chopper ... which also leads to cramped ergos (When standing) if you are anything taller than 5 feet 7

I am not even getting into quality issues that many new owners faced like rusty bits from the showroom itself

It needed:

More power - ~25 BHP
Better suspension - Didn't even have to be adjustable
FI - The "old school" crowd can continue to sharpen their pitchforks

And THAT would be a start

Originally Posted by naturaldisaster

The more chini you add, the sweeter the kheer

Haha! After a few spoon-fulls though, the law of "diminishing marginal sweetness" would set in, where adding more chini would make the kheer inedible

The 300X is one such kheer

[Red Liner]

I will have to agree with everything you say urban, but i have this nagging feeling that BMW might just outprice us. Anyway, its just a feeling, lets wait until the cat is out of the bag.

The xpulse on the other hand, well if it does launch by mid next year should make for a good cheap bike offroad (not enduro). If honda launches anything in this category, i am first in line.