[redrage]

Originally Posted by Madhu_Bengaluru

@redrage And by the way, which is the lake in the backdrop of the bike? Is it the Gulakamale lake off kanakapura road?

Nope. This is nearby itself, Chudanahalli lake.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Madhu_Bengaluru

Perfect bike for our pot hole filled, bumpy Bangalore roads. Started to think about replacing my old workhorse honda unicorn with this for the daily commutes while i am waiting for KTM 390 Adv to be launched.

I am on a very similar trajectory myself. Good to see that more people are thinking on similar lines. Congrats in advance.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Fiddling with the carburetor is a whole load of BS propagated mostly by folks who don't have a clue of what their doing in the first place, because on a factory tuned motorcycle there does not arise a need to meddle with the carburetor at all.

The advantage of a carburetor over a FI system is its simplicity, you may run right or not but in the end you're able to run, rather than with the FI in which case it is either you run or you don't.

And if it is adventure you seek then carburetor is the way to go, especially in India. Though to add, as Redliner has mentioned, the FI systems on Hero's are practically indestructible, but then you never know, life is full of surprises.

Hey Ashwin, beyond reliability, a significant aspect of any ADV aspirations in India is the possibility of riding "high". If you remain at sea-level you might be able to get away with original carb tuning as you suggest. As you climb higher, things inevitably get compromised up, sometimes severely. The Impulse TV ads showing them doing donuts up in Ladakhi deserts was pretty hilarious to me after realizing mine wouldn't even run properly on the link roads just above Manali, at around 7,500ft... black, sooty spark plug, bad misfiring & power loss, etc... A re-jet got it running fine around here locally but still suffering severely approaching the passes, including humble Rohtang at "only" 13,500ft - Oh my, that first trip to Ladakh was an extended misery!

Now, with a fully re-setup carb (main jet changed, main needle lowered, etc), it's finally quite okay (still not perfect for every condition), though I still re-jet before heading up higher. My old KB125/100 "smokers" didn't misfire up there, but still benefited hugely from jet changes on the way to Ladakh (when I finally couldn't take the power loss any more)! Friends had similar problems with their (three) carb'd Himalayans when we went in 2016. Most pertinently here, will add that one of them suffered MUCH more than the rest, my lowly Impulse could run higher speed than he could on the Moray Plains (his top-end about 80). He got the main jet changed to a smaller one at the RE workshop in Leh and did much better on the return journey. All this to say that small production variations can and DO affect overall tuning, and there will be a certain number of "factory tuned" bikes that just don't run at ideal air/fuel ratio as delivered. All the worse when your atmospheric conditions change dramatically. With a careful eye to plug color, I suppose I've re-jetted every bike and many of the cars I've owned. The truly obsessive-compulsives (esp. on race courses) used to change jets on rainy days. Same thing though more discreet - it does make a difference.

An absolutely reliable, feedback-type FI system offers real advantages over carbs, but I've always preferred the latter for ADV touring, because: 1) so many FI systems have NOT proven absolutely reliable - and 2) because I know how to fully disassemble and rebuild a carb roadside. But assuming a reliable FI or a lack of such mechanical abilities, I'd forego the carb any day - and if buying a new X-Pulse, I think I'd probably be considering the FI option, in light of my sometimes dramatically changing operating conditions.

Also, most ECU's would have "limp home" modes that can help you get to your destination even if a sensor or non-essential part of the circuit is compromised. No help if the pump gives out or injector gets pumped full of water that settled in the tank, both common issues with RE's early systems... which didn't even have the benefit of adjusting for altitude. Anyway, as with most things, there are pros/cons.

Just my two cents.

-Eric

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Hey Ashwin, beyond reliability, a significant aspect of any ADV aspirations in India is the possibility of riding "high".

I perfectly understand and accept that FI's are the future, and even welcome them, it is just that I find unwarranted claims against carburetors unnerving, especially since the stock intake route is built to account for altitude changes and does a great job at mellowing down its effects, granted not equally on all motorcycles as I've heard similar tales as you've described of playing with jets or taking the AF cover off on some when getting Leh'd.

And I obviously can't compare with your terrain as the highest I've ridden is at around 8,000ft, and neither of my motorcycles have thrown a tantrum at those altitudes.

Though you might want to hold back on the Xpulse for a bit since the Lambda sensor is sticking out way too much for my linking and does definitely give me the notion that it would take a hit when luck is not on our side.

You're spot on about factory state of tune, which I've observed in my recent motorcycles to take a Leaner trend, which can set off OCD but I simply ignore it because it favors high altitude riding and more importantly because I can extend carburetor rebuilds as over time I've experienced carburetors to run richer than stock, which seems counter-intuitive but is what my plug readings have been telling me over time. It's definitely not the AF, I strictly change it every 5k km's.

As for FI's, currently I believe we do not have any open-loop FI systems running in the 200+cc category which is a good thing, but then the closed-loop systems do not seem to be all that reliable, the case of the Interceptors reported by a couple of online personalities being an example, which is a shame as the antiquated PGMFi system on the ZMR's have done the same route without breaking a sweat.

As for Limp Mode, In Indian machines that means the mode where you park the motorcycle and walk back home.

Sorry for the pun but to date I've literally not witnessed a FI motorcycle go into limp mode, they usually die and we hire a carrier to transport the motorcycle back home, which is an expensive affair especially if you're really far from home, the nearest SVC in most cases are helpless, but that is as expected.

Personally I feel the Carb vs FI debate doesn't matter much considering that both are equally weighed in when it comes to pro's and con's.

Whereas another paradigm that I'd like to bring into this discussion is the wiring of Ignition, irrespective of FI or Carb, most modern day machines run on a DC CDI, even my P220 for example though fueled by a carburetor still needs the battery to run, which makes it just as prone to dying from an electrical failure as a FI, maybe not so much, but you get the point.

In such a case doesn't it simply make more sense to run a rudimentary setup similar to the one of smaller motorcycles for adventure riding?

Saying this as my CT100B has a separate primary coil independently wired from the rest of the generator that feeds the CDI, ensuring that even if all the electricals are down or shorted the motorcycle would still fire and run.

Simply bringing this point up as I've heard rumors on this forum that Yamaha might bring a smaller displacement(125cc) off-road motorcycle to India.

[ringoism]

[quote=ashwinprakas;4598149]Whereas another paradigm that I'd like to bring into this discussion is the wiring of Ignition, irrespective of FI or Carb, most modern day machines run on a DC CDI, even my P220 for example though fueled by a carburetor still needs the battery to run, which makes it just as prone to dying from an electrical failure as a FI, maybe not so much, but you get the point.

In such a case doesn't it simply make more sense to run a rudimentary setup similar to the one of smaller motorcycles for adventure riding?

Saying this as my CT100B has a separate primary coil independently wired from the rest of the generator that feeds the CDI, ensuring that even if all the electricals are down or shorted the motorcycle would still fire and run.

QUOTE]

Good point there. I really don't know if the Impulse would run without battery, kinda thinking it would but don't recall ever trying. Most Bullets won't run without them, and they've left plenty of people stranded on account when cold weather completely knocked out batteries whose weakness didn't show till then.

Related to the original subject (but which I hadn't thought of), I suppose no FI bike would run battery-less on account of the pump/ECU demands?

Apparently pretty easy to do a "battery delete" circuit on the Bullets and probably other bikes. My DR350 and KB125 runl fine without them. Horn/lights weak on the former, on the latter I wired my own rectifier and big capacitor to give a battery-like effect. Still run on Minda A/C horn, which is not too easy to find these days, I think they went out with the Rajdoots and Yezdis...

-Eric

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Good point there. I really don't know if the Impulse would run without battery, kinda thinking it would but don't recall ever trying.

Most Bullets won't run without them, and they've left plenty of people stranded on account when cold weather completely knocked out batteries whose weakness didn't show till then.

It wouldn't run or at least not without dying soon after as like most Bullets and modern motorcycles it has a DC CDI which is evident from its stator lacking a primary coil winding.

Related to the original subject (but which I hadn't thought of), I suppose no FI bike would run battery-less on account of the pump/ECU demands?

Some motorcycles would run provided there's at-least a battery/capacitor in place, the R15 is an example of the same as confirmed by a fellow enthusiast. With the rest I guess all we can do is pray to the almighty.

Apparently pretty easy to do a "battery delete" circuit on the Bullets and probably other bikes. My DR350 and KB125 runl fine without them.

Wiring a capacitor parallel to the battery would do in most cases, a 4700 μF one costs only about Rs.60/-.

As for the DR350, it runs on a rudimentary setup as seen on my CT100B i.e the stator has a primary coil that powers the AC CDI.



Even the legendary KLR650 had an AC ignition;



Unfortunately in India we skipped that part of the motorcycle development timeline as the first instance of motorcycles that came with 150+ cc displacement featured DC Ignition.

Hence why the only truly adventure capable motorcycles we have available in the market today are the low displacement commuters i.e provided someone is brave enough to bring something new(old tech) before the EV phase completely takes over, else we'd simply have to live with the fact that we were never offered anything worth keeping to begin with when it came to 4 strokes.

Still run on Minda A/C horn, which is not too easy to find these days, I think they went out with the Rajdoots and Yezdis...

I've to date not owned a machine that used an AC Horn, generation gap at its best I believe.

[girishv]

Went for a test drive today at Sai honda. The seat height is little high for my height of 5' 6. Wife did not appreciate the looks either. The engine was little rougher than expected. Compared to that 200 S seems to be much better both in height and refinement.

Dropping the plan of getting xpulse and the only other bike in consideration now is CB300. Will be taking a test ride on saturday. Hope for the best.

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Personally I feel the Carb vs FI debate doesn't matter much considering that both are equally weighed in when it comes to pro's and con's.

I am one of those ol skool blokes who still swear by Carbs. My 2010 P220 had a Mikuni flat-slide carb with a reworked exhaust, getting the right tune was a royal pain. The Himalayan in the BS3 avatar (ignoring the Chassis and Coil issues) which was a carbed one can run circles around the current BS4 version. Experts are welcome to thrash or dismiss my theory but that is what I have observed to which even my close rider friends (much more technically sound than me) also agree too. The biggest USP of the BS3 was, it could still run on a flat battery by just a push start.

[k!ng_@thur]

I checked with Auto Needs Hero in Gurgaon on MG Road this week, seems like they're yet to receive news on when they can get a TD vehicle... Miles to go..

[Red Liner]

Does anyone have any news from their dealerships on when deliveries are expected to commence? I saw the 200t at a dealership showroom but not the 200. Me thinks Hero is making some changes to things like the seat etc to the production vehicle based on feedback from the media drive. And hence the substantial delay.

[petrolhead_neel]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Does anyone have any news from their dealerships on when deliveries are expected to commence? I saw the 200t at a dealership showroom but not the 200. Me thinks Hero is making some changes to things like the seat etc to the production vehicle based on feedback from the media drive. And hence the substantial delay.

Talked to Mr. Sanjay Tripathi, Associate VP at Hero Motocorp. He said, and I quote, "Depends on where you are, but by the end of the month, it will be all over India. "

What a fabulous bike. I hope I can have one someday soon!

Neel

[Red Liner]

I wonder if the xpulse FI variant is bs6 ready? Would be crazy if they did a bs6 version just a few months down the line. And am sure the prices will go up a bit as a result.

And i am hoping with all their raid de himalaya testing, this bike is tuned well for higher destinations. Don't want whats happening with the interceptors now getting an ecu update in time for the leh season

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

...

Whereas another paradigm that I'd like to bring into this discussion is the wiring of Ignition, irrespective of FI or Carb, most modern day machines run on a DC CDI, even my P220 for example though fueled by a carburetor still needs the battery to run, which makes it just as prone to dying from an electrical failure as a FI, maybe not so much, but you get the point.

...

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

...The biggest USP of the BS3 was, it could still run on a flat battery by just a push start.

I have a BS3 Pulsar 200 NS and I found out the hard way that the bike won't start with a dead battery even with a push start.

My bike's battery died very suddenly in the middle of my commute. There was enough voltage to power on the instruments but not enough for the DC ignition. Push starting didn't work at all at first. Somehow, after I switched off the ignition and waited for a couple of minutes, the battery regained enough voltage to get the engine started and get me to my office. I got a new battery the same day.

The function of the DC ignition used to be done by mechanical distributors in old carburettor equipped cars. They had automatic timing advance for speed and load. The digital ignition modules are a cheaper, easier and better way of doing the same job.

[karthikr]

XPulse 200 FI Price hike ?!

Hi All, I just received a call from Sai Hero BLR on the booking we made last week for the Xpulse 200 FI, apparently the on-road prices are up by 13k from 1.29L to 1.42L.

Also one interesting thing I noticed was a 1.5K 'handling fee' which I believe is deemed illegal by RTO ?

Other smaller dealerships in BLR still quote 1.29L as the on-road price. Waiting for an email reply form hero south region and the dealership.

Anyone here informed about this hike ?

KR

[Romins]

Originally Posted by karthikr

XPulse 200 FI Price hike ?!

Anyone here informed about this hike ?

KR

Hero website displays: Bangalore
SELF START DOUBLE DISC BRAKE SPOKE WHEEL
Price
`96,500

SELF START DOUBLE DISC BRAKE - FI
`104,500

Called up BHAGATH MOTORS, KR Puram, Bangalore.

Carb OTR 1.2lac, FI OTR 1.36lac. I am not 100% sure about this. The sales person was a little confused about the numbers.

On another note: Cochin may not see a XPulse 200 for another 2 months. They have 200T display vehicle available. OTR 1.15lac.

I think Hero knows the worst city roads are in Bangalore, so getting the off-roading model to Bangalore on priority.