[dkaile]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

Attached is a Cycle World review

I think you will find the report interesting.

Very Interesting ArizonaJim! What I have been saying all along stands vindicated. Himalayan is a bike with a potential to punch above it's body weight and that is what is making many people uncomfortable. It is a bike that you will take for a once-a-week adventure, not once-a-month or a once-a-lifetime one. It is "accessible fun" personified!

My one line comparison on another topic caused a mini furore. But I have no regrets. "The Himalayan's ruggedness and simplicity are exactly the cure for the exceedingly complex ADV bikes of today" and my words have been echoed by some experienced experts.

Cheers to that...

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by dkaile

* Simple carburetor design which is easily self-adjustable for high altitudes
.

It should have been fuel injected. However simple designed a carburetor would be, you have to adjust it with varying altitudes. Plus bothersome in winters or when bike falls.

Any news of Himalayan coming with fuel-injection? If FI comes, they can have my $$

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Any news of Himalayan coming with fuel-injection? If FI comes, they can have my $$

Just a matter of time mate. Will definitely come sooner than later to fulfill the emission norms and accessibility to foreign markets. As for me, I would pick the carb version any day over the FI one just for it's simplicity, repairablity and peace of mind in remote locations.

[Darth Sid]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

Attached is a Cycle World review, written after test riding one of the Himaliyans imported into the USA for evaluation.

I think you will find the report interesting.

http://www.cycleworld.com/royal-enfi...rst-impression

In some part I am not very surprised at the observations posted in that review. It is very interesting to read a review like this from an American site because the lack of a hundred horses would be a major issue for many but what this review shines the light on, albeit from a different angle, is what most buyers of this bike already feel.

The Himalayan is indeed a very rider friendly bike with a very laid back character and that's not a bad thing. It adds to its flexibility and versatility. After ten years of riding an Enfield and then switching to more 'modern' motorcycles for about six, I never thought I would look at or consider buying from RE again. Glad to see that RE is making a sincere effort to move with the times and expand their market.

Originally Posted by Sheel

It should have been fuel injected. However simple designed a carburetor would be, you have to adjust it with varying altitudes. Plus bothersome in winters or when bike falls.

Any news of Himalayan coming with fuel-injection? If FI comes, they can have my $$

Originally Posted by dkaile

Just a matter of time mate. Will definitely come sooner than later to fulfill the emission norms and accessibility to foreign markets. As for me, I would pick the carb version any day over the FI one just for it's simplicity, repairablity and peace of mind in remote locations.

I agree. While FI adds refinement and responsiveness, even I would prefer the simplicity and easy to fix character of a carb setup. No need to worry about a sensor going haywire or the fuel pump going kaput and leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere. I have experienced such crippling breakdowns with my Duke 200, though fortunately within city limits. 4500 bucks for a fuel pump!

[dkaile]

Himalayan walk-around, exhaust note, auxillary lights and compared to Harley Softail exhaust note. City was hijacked this Sunday by Kanwariyas, so had nothing better to do... Lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_2pQDllrk

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Darth Sid

I agree. While FI adds refinement and responsiveness, even I would prefer the simplicity and easy to fix character of a carb setup. No need to worry about a sensor going haywire or the fuel pump going kaput and leaving you stranded in the middle of nowhere. I have experienced such crippling breakdowns with my Duke 200, though fortunately within city limits. 4500 bucks for a fuel pump!

Sid, lots of things in lots of KTM's have gone wrong, let us not use KTM as a benchmark here.

I have been using FI bikes since '09, zilch issues yet. All petrol cars sold in India have FI, you came across any reported problem as such? [because of fuel-injection]

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by Sheel

I have been using FI bikes since '09, zilch issues yet. All petrol cars sold in India have FI, you came across any reported problem as such? [because of fuel-injection]

The purpose of this bike is slightly different than a conventional road biased bike.

To make a long story short, with inputs from other sites that I visited:

Fuel injection doesn't give appreciably more power, and it doesn't provide much better gas mileage. Fuel injection does allow for more accurate control of the air/fuel ratio, and in doing so, allows a bike to run cleaner and keep a catalytic converter on board. With aftermarket tuning software, it also allows much finer adjustments of the fuel map.

Carburetors also have advantages. They are more affordable to tinker with. Tuning with a handful of jets can usually be done for only a few rupees in India, whereas fuel-mapping software on an injected bike begins at tens of thousands in bills, in most cases, and non-serviceable by any road side mechanic in India. Carburetors are infinitely more rebuildable and user-serviceable than fuel injection, so for those traveling to remote places for which this bike is purpose built, carbs can have a slight edge. And carbs did not hold back motorcycle performance. Remember the Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird? That old carbureted dinosaur made 133 horsepower in 1998. That's still a very respectable number, even 18 years later.

Ultimately, both methods of fuel delivery have their applications, fans, and detractors. It's unlikely we'll see a resurgence of carburetors in the future, due to environmental concerns. Fuel injection is, at this point, smooth and capable of more accurate, affordable fueling than any other method of atomizing the fuel and air mixture that humans have developed to date. We're able to make our bikes run cleaner without sacrificing much at all. Fuel injection is reliable, and hey - you don't have to figure out how to use an enrichener!

SOURCE

...But for this RE, I would still prefer a carb.

Cheers...


Note from Mod - Post edited. Do NOT copy-paste text from other sites into your post without a link as credit.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Sheel

I have been using FI bikes since '09, zilch issues yet. All petrol cars sold in India have FI, you came across any reported problem as such? [because of fuel-injection]

Same here FI technology has improved and become robust now, can take on any harsh conditions these days.

Originally Posted by dkaile

Tuning with a handful of jets can usually be done for only a few rupees in India, whereas fuel-mapping software on an injected bike begins at tens of thousands in bills, in most cases, and non-serviceable by any road side mechanic in India. Carburetors are infinitely more rebuildable and user-serviceable than fuel injection, so for those traveling to remote places for which this bike is purpose built, carbs can have a slight edge.

Not really in a country like India, trying to get the right jet is not that easy as you think. It is a bloody pain, compared to EFI parts that you can readily order and get it delivered to your door steps in days.

Also the part about 10's of thousands are gone, its becoming cheaper and cheaper and more number of reliable tuning options are coming up everyday. Hey and if you have a reliable EFI, why would you even go tuning??

It's plain and simple, they would be saving about 30-40 k INR per bike by sticking to carbs and sure will launch an EFI one couple of months down the line with a revised price tag. It is just marketing and economics, nothing to do with biking or maintenance.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by dkaile

The purpose of this bike is slightly different than a conventional road biased bike.

To make a long story short, with inputs from other sites that I visited, Fuel injection doesn't give appreciably more power, and it doesn't provide much better gas mileage. Fuel injection does allow for more accurate control of the air/fuel ratio, and in doing so, allows a bike to run cleaner and keep a catalytic converter on board. With aftermarket tuning software, it also allows much finer adjustments of the fuel map.

Carburetors also have advantages. They are more affordable to tinker with. Tuning with a handful of jets can usually be done for only a few rupees in India, whereas fuel-mapping software on an injected bike begins at tens of thousands in bills, in most cases, and non-serviceable by any road side mechanic in India. Carburetors are infinitely more rebuildable and user-serviceable than fuel injection, so for those traveling to remote places for which this bike is purpose built, carbs can have a slight edge. And carbs did not hold back motorcycle performance. Remember the Honda CBR1100XX Blackbird? That old carbureted dinosaur made 133 horsepower in 1998. That's still a very respectable number, even 18 years later.

Ultimately, both methods of fuel delivery have their applications, fans, and detractors. It's unlikely we'll see a resurgence of carburetors in the future, due to environmental concerns. Fuel injection is, at this point, smooth and capable of more accurate, affordable fueling than any other method of atomizing the fuel and air mixture that humans have developed to date. We're able to make our bikes run cleaner without sacrificing much at all. Fuel injection is reliable, and hey - you don't have to figure out how to use an enrichener! But for this RE, I would still prefer a carb.

Cheers...

In my opinion, the main reason why EFI on bikes in India has a bad rap is because of the manufacturer inexperience and organisational capability. Bajaj, TVS and RE messed up. There were a lot of failures and customers were unhappy. Yamaha and Honda did not mess up and as a result customers were rarely even aware that their bikes (R15, CBR, etc.) even had fuel injection. I'm going with anecdotal evidence so don't hold me to it. Experience and capability counts in the following ways:
* selecting the right vendors
* selecting the right components
* ensuring consistent quality from vendors
* knowing failure modes of various components
* designing systems to prevent failures
* analysis of failures
* implementation of corrective measures to prevent repeated failures.

All these steps require a skilled and experienced engineering, quality assurance, purchase and management teams with various systems and processes in place. I believe that both Bajaj and RE did not have organisational maturity at the point at which they launched EFI bikes and that is the reason the products and the customer experience suffered.

Let's face it: EFI is the future. It's been around for decades and, at least in cars, its reliability is beyond question. As engine management systems get more sophisticated, both performance and reliability will continue improving. Indian emission regulations will continue to become more stringent and all 2 wheelers will eventually be equipped with EFI.

In 1998, EFI technology in bikes was still not good enough compared to carburettors. I'm going on magazine reviews of that time which mostly said that EFI systems did not provide the same level of throttle control that a carburetor did. Even GP bikes were slow to switch over to EFI. A jerky throttle is somewhat masked by a car's large inertia but it can't be done on a bike. On a car, a jerky throttle is just annoying but on a bike it can be dangerous.

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Not really in a country like India, trying to get the right jet is not that easy as you think. It is a bloody pain, compared to EFI parts that you can readily order and get it delivered to your door steps in days.

Also the part about 10's of thousands are gone, its becoming cheaper and cheaper and more number of reliable tuning options are coming up everyday. Hey and if you have a reliable EFI, why would you even go tuning??

It's plain and simple, they would be saving about 30-40 k INR per bike by sticking to carbs and sure will launch an EFI one couple of months down the line with a revised price tag. It is just marketing and economics, nothing to do with biking or maintenance.

No offense, but I have seen many 'jugaads' to changing jets all together, but those are possible only on a carbureted bike. Also, I don't agree with your point of view that EFI parts are easier to source than carburetor parts! And who would be willing to wait for them to arrive if stuck at a remote location? The cost involved e.g. on my Harley, for tuning software/hardware is minimum 20~30k. And if something went bad with it, the only way to get it back would be on a flat bed. Himalayan with a carb would at least be able to limp back to civilization.

Yes, they would be saving money on the hardware for sure but they still have some way to go to perfect their systems reliability factor. It is the future too keeping in my mind the emission norms. But for the end consumer of this bike, a carb version would just give more peace of mind keeping the various current factors and usability options in mind. This is just a personal opinion, don't hold it against me.

Cheers...

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

. Bajaj and RE messed up.

Please include TVS in the list too. Remember the orange RTR 160 Efi?

[Urban_Nomad]

Anyone who things "playing around" with carbs / jets is a breeze must definitely give this thread a dekko -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...o-impulse.html

For versatility - EFI all the way for me

[ku69rd]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

It's plain and simple, they would be saving about 30-40 k INR per bike by sticking to carbs and sure will launch an EFI one couple of months down the line with a revised price tag.

Not too sure if there is so much a gap in motorcycles at-least.
Yamaha retails both their FI & Carb versions with a difference of around 7700. (Ex-Showroom)

Also its a myth that Carbs do not make much power when compared to FI...The same Yamaha FZ Carb makes 14 PS when compared to 13.1 PS that is made by Yamaha FZ FI version.

I believe its more like the horses for the courses. Depends on what people actually want...Carbs or FI. Both have their own merits and demerits would leave it to people to make the choice for themselves.

PS: Kawasaki KLR 650 sold in the US...still on carbs. Will let others to derive their own understandings.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by dkaile

Yes, they would be saving money on the hardware for sure but they still have some way to go to perfect their systems reliability factor.

This is the key thing, if done right they have a winner in their hands. Imagine the peace of mind factor with a perfect EFI system.

Originally Posted by ku69rd

Not too sure if there is so much a gap in motorcycles at-least.
Yamaha retails both their FI & Carb versions with a difference of around 7700. (Ex-Showroom)

Well for a company like Yamaha it is an easy job, for Royal Enfield this would mean lot of investment either developing or buying from people with expertise and that sure is going to get passed on to the customer. That is what i think.

[dkaile]

Passed on from a friend!!