[MonsterPatrol]

Originally Posted by Parth46

He has single-handedly elevated MotoGP to a whole new level of sporting events simply on the back his imitable charisma and unparalleled skill and success.

Another common misconception. Not single handedly but with the effort of other riders,Dorna's capacity to attract new sponsors and most importantly new contracts with television broadcasters of different regions. However Rossi gets the credit for taking it to a different level in South America,Indian subcontinent and the Far East. But in Europe, Motogp has always been a supremely popular sport since the days of Agostini,Hailwood.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Thats news to me. I always thought that Rossi was the old school types who turned his nose up to electronics. Do you have more info you can share on this? Just curious

Mick Doohan won 5 consecutive championships on the Honda and Honda were pissed off that he wasnt trying any electronic inventions on the bike. It was after Rossi came in that the electronic inventions began full swing.

"Despite up to eight rivals on non-factory HRC Honda motorcycles Doohan's margin of superiority over them was such that in many races Doohan would build a comfortable lead and then ride well within his limits to cruise to victory. Although pure riding skill clearly played a large part in his success, the ability of his chief race engineer, Jeremy Burgess, to perfect the suspension and geometry of a racing motorcycle may have given him an advantage over his rivals. Between 1994 and 1998 the bike was said not to have had many changes, with Honda engineers reportedly becoming frustrated at Doohan's reluctance to try innovations such as electronic shifting (it was only when Rossi came to Honda in 1999 that Honda engineers had their head with Rossi willing to try more innovations".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Doohan

So Rossi inherited Jeremy Burgess and we all know what Jeremy Burgess is capable of just like Adrian Newey of F1. At Ducati thou, even Jeremy Burgess wasnt able to help him.

Originally Posted by Parth46

Yes, no "newbie" is CURRENTLY worthy of the pedestal on which Rossi resides. I'll get to this in a moment. He has single-handedly elevated MotoGP to a whole new level of sporting events simply on the back his imitable charisma and unparalleled skill and success.

Well you should look a little further before that. There was the Wayne Rainey vs Kevin Schwantz duel during Motogp's most splendid years. And then came the lull when Doohan was winning everything. Then came Rossi with his fast bike-slow qualifying and overtaking during the race making for an entertaining spectacle and becoming a household name.

Originally Posted by Parth46

The "old-timers" like me have said time and again that the new guys are seriously good and fast and potentially will stand the test of time for the years to come, but the main point is this - Rossi is ALREADY a TIME_TESTED veteran of racing that has been winning since 1996. The new crowd is in just a bit too much of a hurry to write off Rossi and herald the Lorenzos and Marquezs as the new heroes who should be worshipped and the old should have given way to the new long back. Is it Rossi's fault that he is fit enough and motivated enough and competitive enough to still fight for the crown at 36? Is there some unwritten rule that an athlete should only stay in his/her chosen sport till only a certain age? Yes, MotoGP is a young guy's game but the fact that a 36 year old is still kicking butt needs to be treated with respect and not disdain.

No. No one here said Rossi should quit. Rossi should quit only when he wants to. But he hasnt had a favorable result in the last 5 years in Motogp. He is leading the championship this year but am not too sure if he will win this year. And he is not really kicking butt, he got his ass handed on a platter by Jorge Lorenzo, Casey Stoner and Marc Marquez over the last few years.

Originally Posted by Parth46

@ JayKis - Yes, he won his last title in 2009 - 6 years ago. But he also won his FIRST title way back in 1996. Perhaps you can point out other riders who've been so successful at the top level over the decades, enlighten us.

You perhaps didnot get the point. He hasnt been successful at the top level in the last 5 years Having said that, getting to be on the grid itself is a big thing and a matter of respect, which i agree to.

Originally Posted by Parth46

Yes, there is no dearth of Rossi fanboys anywhere and I'm proud to be one of his biggest fans - agree it can be intimidating for some folks used to lesser gods. It's like the Manchester United effect, where all these people who you've never seen before suddenly come out of the woodwork to don their favorite yellow and blue clothing, cover themselves in the number 46 and wrap themselves up in huge flags bearing The Doctor in massive letters.

Am not intimidated by Rossi fan boys. Infact I love them. I like the points of view they bring across and then I like to torture them and tear them apart. Call me sadistic!!

Originally Posted by Parth46

Yes, the ability to switch rides and still win does make Rossi a great rider. Please let us know who else in the current and slightly older crop has won world titles on an Aprilia, a Honda and a Yamaha over 20 years? That too in classes ranging from 125 cc - 1000 cc?

Casey Stoner is one who comes to mind. Won on a Ducati. Won on a Honda. Rossi has won only on the Honda and Yamaha in Motogp (four stroke). BTW how many races have Rossi won in motogp without Jeremy Burgess as his crew chief? Zero! How many racers have Jeremy Burgess taken to Championships? Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan, Valentino Rossi. You get the drift?

Originally Posted by Parth46

Rossi not in the same league as Marquez or Lorenzo? Pardon me, but that is one of the most laughably absurd things I've read in a long, long time. Thanks for the laughs my friend.

Electronics? The master at making the right tyre choice day in and day out, ability to preserve the tyres just enough to mount a last lap assault, not binning it under pressure like MM93, and it's all due to electronics? My apologies again, but I find it really tough to absorb these valuable nuggets.

Rossi hasnt been in the league of Lorenzo, Stoner or Marquez in the last 5 years. Thats why I said " He was a master". He is currently not in the same league.

About the electronics, please read further up.

Originally Posted by Parth46

Just don't write him off yet. He's one who can ride around at the back of the grid till he's 50 and still be the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

This is why I love the Rossi fanboys. He will be riding around 50 in the motogp grid? Hahaha!!

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by JayKis

Mick Doohan won 5 consecutive championships on the Honda and Honda were pissed off that he wasnt trying any electronic inventions on the bike. It was after Rossi came in that the electronic inventions began full swing.

So Rossi inherited Jeremy Burgess and we all know what Jeremy Burgess is capable of just like Adrian Newey of F1. At Ducati thou, even Jeremy Burgess wasnt able to help him.

I call this the progress of technology. Would the MotoGP world really have stayed at that level of technology even if Rossi hadn't come along? It's absurd to think that a sport built on prototypes so that the overall road-facing technology can be improved wouldn't have moved at all and Rossi was the one Honda used to develop their techno-wizardry. If at all, Rossi has never been a big fan of all the electronics that are used today. In fact, he has never has to hide behind the high-end bikes to win. Case in point - Yamaha's seamless gear-shifter only made it to their bike this year, a full 3 -years late behind Honda. Do you really think the "traction control" generation of today would've been able to cope so easily with the snorting NSR 500s and the big-bang two strokes? Apples to oranges, my friend.

And to top if off, just to prove that he was not winning just cos of the RCV, he moved to Yamaha and still remains the ONLY RACER IN HISTORY to win back-to-back races on two different manufacturers, and subsequently the season. You get the drift?

Well you should look a little further before that. There was the Wayne Rainey vs Kevin Schwantz duel during Motogp's most splendid years. And then came the lull when Doohan was winning everything. Then came Rossi with his fast bike-slow qualifying and overtaking during the race making for an entertaining spectacle and becoming a household name.

And where do you think all those sponsorships and TV rights came from? I agree that Rainey/Schwantz et al were providing a big spectacle but VR has big role to play in MotoGP going mainstream in the mid-90s.

No. No one here said Rossi should quit. Rossi should quit only when he wants to. But he hasnt had a favorable result in the last 5 years in Motogp. He is leading the championship this year but am not too sure if he will win this year. And he is not really kicking butt, he got his ass handed on a platter by Jorge Lorenzo, Casey Stoner and Marc Marquez over the last few years.

Is he really getting his ass kicked? really? You forget that he's the championship leader as of today, and has routinely kicked the butt of all 3 names you've referenced here.

Am not intimidated by Rossi fan boys. Infact I love them. I like the points of view they bring across and then I like to torture them and tear them apart. Call me sadistic!!

LOL, you've found a real tough fanboy to mess with this time, not really that easy to torture and tear apart! Nice try and thanks for the laughs though!

Casey Stoner is one who comes to mind. Won on a Ducati. Won on a Honda. Rossi has won only on the Honda and Yamaha in Motogp (four stroke). BTW how many races have Rossi won in motogp without Jeremy Burgess as his crew chief? Zero! How many racers have Jeremy Burgess taken to Championships? Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan, Valentino Rossi. You get the drift?

Rossi has won 125,250, 500, 800, 990 CC across two & four strokes from an overall career perspective. Does Stoner even come close? Hardly think so. And Moaner fanboys only refer to his win with Ducati and indirectly prove that it was the single biggest triumph of his career and thus should be used as the biggest yardstick when talking about Ducati. LOL.

Also, perhaps you miscounted but Rossi has already won 5 races since appointing Silvano Galbusera as his new crew chief. And if you think Rossi won so far only due to Jeremy Burgess then it's a puerile argument at best, a gross injustice at worst. You get the drift?

[mayankk]

Burgess has been dissociated since 2013,no?
Might help to read.

[MonsterPatrol]

Originally Posted by JayKis

Mick Doohan won 5 consecutive championships on the Honda and Honda were pissed off that he wasnt trying any electronic inventions on the bike. It was after Rossi came in that the electronic inventions began full swing.

That pretty much concludes the discussion. Brilliant writeup by both JayKis and urbannomad. Highly informative. A bit of stats before I hit the sack, since 2010-Rossi has won only 7 races from 91 race starts! Jorge 31 from 92, Stoner 18 from 50 n Pedrosa 18 from 85.

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by MonsterPatrol

That pretty much concludes the discussion. Brilliant writeup by both JayKis and urbannomad.Highly informative. A bit of stats before I hit the sack, since 2010-Rossi has won only 7 races from 91 race starts! Jorge 31 from 92, Stoner 18 from 50 n Pedrosa 18 from 85.

Good for you that you find these discussions productive and have now found inner peace.

For VR - 84 wins from 258 starts with 166 podium finishes, and the longest winning career in GP racing - 18 years, 244 days; and you can still pick and choose stats from a small sub-set! Amazing, is all I can say.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Parth46

I call this the progress of technology. Would the MotoGP world really have stayed at that level of technology even if Rossi hadn't come along? It's absurd to think that a sport built on prototypes so that the overall road-facing technology can be improved wouldn't have moved at all and Rossi was the one Honda used to develop their techno-wizardry. If at all, Rossi has never been a big fan of all the electronics that are used today. In fact, he has never has to hide behind the high-end bikes to win. Case in point - Yamaha's seamless gear-shifter only made it to their bike this year, a full 3 -years late behind Honda. Do you really think the "traction control" generation of today would've been able to cope so easily with the snorting NSR 500s and the big-bang two strokes? Apples to oranges, my friend.

You conveniently overlook the fact that Rossi was the biggest benefactor of electronics on the Honda. Rossi won all his motogp championships on electronics. This disproves the argument that if there are no electronics, Rossi will win. If you want to look at 500 two strokes era then, Doohan will win everything. He would throw a can of whupass over Rossi.

Originally Posted by Parth46

And to top if off, just to prove that he was not winning just cos of the RCV, he moved to Yamaha and still remains the ONLY RACER IN HISTORY to win back-to-back races on two different manufacturers, and subsequently the season. You get the drift?

There is a reason why Rossi won moving from Honda to Yamaha. Both the bikes were good even before he set foot on it. Read Kenny Roberts Jr's article on the same. We all know what happened when he moved to Ducati

Originally Posted by Parth46

And where do you think all those sponsorships and TV rights came from? I agree that Rainey/Schwantz et al were providing a big spectacle but VR has big role to play in MotoGP going mainstream in the mid-90s.

I thought motogp was being run by Dorna. They bring the sponsorship and TV rights. For godsake, Rossi even though popular, is just a rider!

Originally Posted by Parth46

Is he really getting his ass kicked? really? You forget that he's the championship leader as of today, and has routinely kicked the butt of all 3 names you've referenced here.

Since I have mentioned Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez. Let me dissect their rivalries with Rossi one by one.


Stoner from 2006 to 2012: There were 124 races and Stoner has beaten Rossi 75 to 49 (incl Retirements). Stoner won on multiple machinery, Pussy won only on the Yamaha. We all know how the Ducati trip fared out.

Lorenzo from 2008 onwards to current: Am not even taking the case of Lorenzo here because thats not prettiest of the picture. Would you need Lorenzo's data, would be more than too happy to pour the grief.

Marquez from 2013 to current: Would you even need that

They can be only compared to Rossi during the the time they have been racing in Motogp.

The above does look like handing ass on a platter, doesnt it?

Originally Posted by Parth46

Rossi has won 125,250, 500, 800, 990 CC across two & four strokes from an overall career perspective. Does Stoner even come close? Hardly think so. And Moaner fanboys only refer to his win with Ducati and indirectly prove that it was the single biggest triumph of his career and thus should be used as the biggest yardstick when talking about Ducati. LOL.

Also, perhaps you miscounted but Rossi has already won 5 races since appointing Silvano Galbusera as his new crew chief. And if you think Rossi won so far only due to Jeremy Burgess then it's a puerile argument at best, a gross injustice at worst. You get the drift?

Valentino Pussy could have won the 125, 250, 500, 800, 1000 or whatever, you can show multiple classes. 500, 800/1000 (motogp) are literally the same, just the highest class prevailing at that point in time. Lorenzo and Marquez won in other classes as well.

Rossi won because he had Jeremy Burgess. That makes Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez wins all the more special because they didnt have Jeremy Burgess. Let Rossi win a championship without Jeremy and we will give his due credit. Yeah, winning 5 out of 54 races over 3 years is such a commendable job for the greatest of all time!! Terrific.

Originally Posted by MonsterPatrol

That pretty much concludes the discussion. Brilliant writeup by both JayKis and urbannomad.Highly informative. A bit of stats before I hit the sack, since 2010-Rossi has won only 7 races from 91 race starts! Jorge 31 from 92, Stoner 18 from 50 n Pedrosa 18 from 85.

Thats the point. Stats will show you that Rossi Pussy got his ass whooped in his rivalries with Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez. Thats something the fanboys cant manipulate!

So how can you call someone the greatest of all time when he has losing record against three of his contemporaries is the stark question?

[MonsterPatrol]

Jeremy Burgess... A man worthy of Motogp hall of fame deserved a better send off.

[MonsterPatrol]

A representation made by HRC themselves

[mayankk]

Taking it to an unnecessary level here.
Love how a retired rider is brought in to buff up the ranks of an argument that frankly is now cluttering up the thread.
Just for the sake of graphics though:

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by JayKis

Sheel, Rossi is the one who propagated this electronics software control in the first place. Would really put Lorenzo, Stoner and Marquez over Rossi on the list if you take the electronics off. Just my view just like Lewis Hamilton over Nico Rosberg

Hi!

I do like Valentino & I am his fan, but I do like others as well. I like the way Lorenzo rides & switch off the tv the moment he crosses the line, not something I do when Rossi wins. That is the prime reason of him having so many fans.

On topic of electronics, I recall an interview of his [in Bike India or Overdrive, some ~ years ago] that he was against electronics & other rider aides. But because I don't have any links etc, I won't push further.

And to be very honest, race-craft wise I will still pick Valentino over his other rivals racing at the moment. I am not going into any statistics, but if he qualified in top 6 and didn't have to over work to gain positions, I bet, he would have been at top.

I also know & acknowledge that he can't get a good qualifying spot & that is half the race lost. But putting up a show...you got to hand over to him.

What do you folks like watching? A Pedrosa/Lorenzo march to finish line or 'em fighting for positions with each other? Why watch a race then? Go and watch qualifying on Saturday [Friday for Assen]

And you can't compare different eras, no you can't. Lots of things were different, from tires to electronics to regulations...lots.

[MonsterPatrol]

If you look at the figures and results since 2006, Rossi hasn't been very dominant as most of the people make him look like. His supreme domination in MotoGP world ENDED in 2005, I stress on the word 'domination'. Age was not a factor as he was just 26 years old at that time and at the peak of his career.
Since the arrival of the 2 spanish superstars along with an Aussie freak in 2006, his overall success percentage has been comparitively low as to his earlier racing career.

If you compare his results to his compatriots who started racing alongside him on FACTORY rides post 2006 then this is what you get. (Minimum of 90 race starts)

99.Lorenzo - 136 race starts, 36 wins, 88 podiums, 31 poles, 2 world championships = 2149 points
Winning - 27%, Points average per race - 15.4%, Overall podium percentage - 65%

27.Stoner - 99 race starts, 38 wins, 66 podiums, 38 poles, 2 world championships = 1696 points
Winning - 38 %, Points accumulation average per race - 17.1%, Overall podium percentage = 67%

26.Pedrosa- 154 race starts - 26 wins, 94 podiums, 27 poles, 0 world championships= 2305 points
Winning - 17%, Points accumulation average per race - 14.9%, Overall podium percentage = 61%

46.Rossi - 161 race starts- 31 wins, 85 podiums, 20 poles, 2 world championships = 2352 points
Winning - 19 %, Points accumulation average per race 14.6%, Overall podium percentage = 53%

[schakravarthy]

Whenever Rossi gets within sight of a leading bike, the chances of him passing that bike are almost certain, whoever it may be. As soon as he gets within sniffing distance, he puts pressure on the leading bike until the rider is forced to commit an error. If he doesn't, well, he will just barge his way past, resulting in some of the well documented skirmishes.

Many bikes in a pack, Rossi at the back, maybe even a second down; my money will always be on him coming tops. I don't get that 'feeling' with any other rider.
I believe he's sort of an old school track 'n' hunt kinda rider, though off late, he has mellowed down a bit.

Love him or hate him, but you can't deny that he's the GOAT. He probably is the best thing to have happened to the sport.

[MonsterPatrol]

Although its illogical to compare riders from different eras, but Rossi’s main rivals from 2001-2005 Max,Sete and Loris capirossi were nowhere near as consistent as Stoner, Lorenzo or Pedrosa.

Rossi from ( 2001-2005) - 81 race starts, 51 wins, 71 podiums, 30 poles, 5 world championships = 1708 points
Winning percentage = 64%, Points accumulation average per race 21%, Overall podium percentage = 88%

Max biaggi – 81 Race starts, 8 wins, 39 podiums, 15 poles, 0 world championships = 1052 points
Winning percentage = 10%, Points accumulation average per race 13%, Overall podium percentage = 39%

Sete Gibernau - 81 Race starts, 9 wins ,23 podiums , 0 world championships = 854 points
Winning percentage = 11%, Points accumulation average per race 10.5%, Overall podium percentage = 29%

Loris Capirossi – 77 Race starts, 3 wins, 22 podiums, 0 world championships = 770 points
Winning percentage = 4%, Points accumulation average per race 10%, Overall podium percentage =29%

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Parth46

you might enjoy this (maybe not)

Thanks for the video bro. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Still gives me goosebumps. Can't imagine its been 6 years .....

The man is a sporting legend.

In the days of the Greeks, he would have been a God by now.

I'm no Greek, but the guy is God for me. And millions around the world.