[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by ani_meher

I am hearing that RC200/RC390 is a 'track' bike for a long time now. As per Wiki, following are the tracks in India:

Permanent tracks

• Buddh International Circuit, National Capital Region
• Irungattukottai Race Track, Chennai
• Kari Motor Speedway, Coimbatore

Inactive tracks

• Sholavaram Airstrip, North Chennai

3 in South, 1 in Delhi. Don't know how many of these allow bikes or have track sunday for bikes.

Then which utility does this bike satisfy? Racing on nicely laid public roads? Long distance touring with 9.5L tank is a novelty, if that's the case. I am curious to know buyers' view.

P200/CBR250/Ninja300 can be used for touring as well. Duke twins are used for solo touring and off roading (even though it is not mainly intended for that). But where does a dedicated track bike fit in Indian scenario, when there are no tracks?!

A friend of mine regularly attends track days at BIC on his CBR 250 along the big boys.He has managed a best time of 2.52;and a friend of his 2.37 on the Duke 390.

He was planning to purchase a litre class for track days;but sense prevailed after he got a sound advice from other big bike owners;now he booked the RC 390 today; and this machine will be parked at the track itself.

He is not alone; quite a few big bike owners are going for the RC 390 to be used as a track tool.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by akshay4587

A friend of mine regularly attends track days at BIC on his CBR 250 along the big boys.He has managed a best time of 2.52;and a friend of his 2.37 on the Duke 390.

He was planning to purchase a litre class for track days;but sense prevailed after he got a sound advice from other big bike owners;now he booked the RC 390 today; and this machine will be parked at the track itself.

He is not alone; quite a few big bike owners are going for the RC 390 to be used as a track tool.

I know a couple of Duke 390 owners who regularly hit the track at BIC, and are planning to do the same.

When you spend 8000 bucks for a day of track time, each time (and they are many at regular intervals) and over 50,000 for leathers and other gear, the 2 odd lacs for the machine itself is a bargain to end all bargains.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by ebonho

How many of the recently launched bikes offer you Metzelers, USD WP tech forks, trelllis frame, alloy swingarms, dual disc ABS, 44 bhp and a 170+ top speed with a still decent 25-30 kmpl fuel mileage in 200,000 rupees?

Originally Posted by Sheel

How many of the recently launched bikes have wheel, fork, gasket, cooling & other multiple issues apart from the KTM? Search for them, I bet you know quite a few

In all good humor, it is evens then. You take things mentioned by you at 2L and get things in return mentioned by me.

They are known as exotics the world over. And temperamental high maintenance ones at that. And are priced accordingly. Oftentimes more than the BMWs and Ducatis as well. The Japs are way cheaper to buy and live with.

I am sorry, but since when did KTM become exotic? I am not going into off-road and cruiser bikes but can you point out a sport bike costing more than a Ducati or BMW.

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

And this is what I cannot agree with. I ask again, so what if there's one extra cylinder?

And hope friends have not forgotten that the Comet GT-250, despite it being a twin, it did not have a very significant advantage over the single cylinder CBR-250R. So as long as things work, I am not looking too much at a single, twin etc.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Originally Posted by Sheel;

I am sorry, but since when did KTM become exotic? I am not going into off-road and cruiser bikes but can you point out a sport bike costing more than a Ducati or BMW.

Merely the cost of a bike alone is not responsible for it to gain the exotic status.
Exclusivity even more so. And none of these brands on the whole can be called exotic as they all cater to a lot of segments. Although there are certain models that are conceived to be exclusive from the start eg. Ducati - desmocedici, Mh900e..etc. and the classic models are another ball game.

As an exotic brand Bimota is one and a few other boutique manufacturers who make either more artsy sort of bikes or ones that make race replicas with all the hi-tech carbon fiber and magnesium doo-dads like NCR and suter etc...

As for pointing out 'a' KTM that is more expensive than 'a' Ducati or 'a' Bmw the Super duke 1290 is easily more expensive than a monster 796 or a BMW F800 ST

[Ricci]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Other manufacturers continue to price their products exorbitantly, in many different guises, such as of no. of cylinders (2 cylinders will ALWAYS be more expensive than one). Only in India however this analogy seems to be true. Rest of the world sees ktm singles selling at a premium over their multi cylinder competition. Case in point - the inazuma is much cheaper than the 390 in the international market despite being a single. But here, it's a different story

Now why does this happen? Because we lap up this marketing crap with arms wide open. A similar analogy here would be Honda cars a few years back. Zero equipment, much higher priced than competition. If you asked why the puny 1.2 litre jazz hatch was so exorbitantly priced, you would get a response like "quality components" to "the hatch door needs to be very sturdy and we spend a lot of money on that". I kid you not, do a quick search on t-bhp itself. Competition caught on and look at the scenario today. The city comes loaded with equipment and Indian diesel suddenly is not too bad in quality

So rather, doesn't it seem like they're taking the Europeans for a ride, pricing a cheap to make single at par with or higher than twin cylinder bikes?

Now, I'm not entirely sure the KTMs we buy and the KTMs they (the firangs) buy are the same. Back in early 2000s, I came across a CBZ specificiations page - it mentioned 14.5bhp (CV, to be exact, which is PS) while our Indian CBZ made just 12.8PS. Apparently, the CBZ that HHML exported was not the CBZ we bought domestically.

Pretty much the same is said of Maruti Suzuki, whose export cars of the same model are said to be of much better build quality and specs than ours. So it might just be, than what BAL sells to Europe is of much better quality than what they sell us locally.

Originally Posted by Sheel

These are rumors, no..? Now Yamaha will have to develop a single 250 when they already have a twin 250. Logically, I think they will go with the twin. Have they anywhere brought the R25 with a single? (Unaware as to in which countries have they launched the R25) Will this be India specific, will it provide the volumes to justify making a single 250?

If we had some excise benefits or something, I would have bought this thought. But as mentioned earlier, developing it just for India? Beats me. I might be proven wrong in due course of time, but there are no losers here :-)

Given that they are targeting the CBR300R, they might give us a single, even if there is an R25 twin ready and standing. Unless we know the corporate math behind the estimates of getting a new 300cc single vs bringing the existing 250cc twin, can't be too sure , can we ?

Originally Posted by ebonho

How many of the recently launched bikes offer you Metzelers, USD WP tech forks, trelllis frame, alloy swingarms, dual disc ABS, 44 bhp and a 170+ top speed with a still decent 25-30 kmpl fuel mileage in 200,000 rupees?

They are known as exotics the world over. And temperamental high maintenance ones at that. And are priced accordingly. Oftentimes more than the BMWs and Ducatis as well. The Japs are way cheaper to buy and live with.

Not saying the KTMs are the faultless. But equally there are other reasons why their road bikes are not high sellers abroad.

In India the pricing makes the big difference.

The Duke 200/390 being exotics ? Yeah they are expensive bikes by Indian per capita income standards, but exotics ? The RC8 and 1290 Super Duke can be called exotics, they are made in small numbers and packed with all the tech they can muster. But to call the 200/390 exotics, is like saying , hey the Nissan GTR is an exotic - 540bhp , twin turbo V8 , therefore Nissan Sunny is also an exotic. Or Toyota Etios, because the GT86 is an exotic.

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

Yes they are. But there is some credibility here. How else do you explain Yamaha not launching a production ready bike in India, while they are absolutely at home launching the same in Vietnam. We may not be on the top for Yamaha's revenue stream but I can say with certainty, we are a bigger market than Viet-friggin-Nam (No offense meant to Viet-Friggin-Nam)


Actually, I strongly feel that this off road usage may well be the reason for the issue surrounding bent / cracked rims on the duke. But I am not going to cover up for the manufacturer. Its their job to clarify on the issue, not mine

We've seen that before, all the Japanese brands are conservative, they see India as a mass market and expect huge volumes out of every product, and when they don't sell, they pout and huff and sell us outdated stuff. But there must be some truth in it - perhaps Indonesia/Vietnam/Malaysia see more CBR250Rs sold than India, so they probably get priority.

About the cracked rims - how many of the incidents are because of hitting potholes while braking ? This would compress the forks, leaving little impact absorption, which then would be borne by the wheels since the suspension won't give.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Haters are gonna hate. Lets move on shall we.

I personally have had a very good experience with my duke 200 in the 2 years I have owned it. Only consumables have needed changing other than that once my brother crashed it. And once all the broken parts had been changed it was back to being tight as it was the day I bought it. And so I've gone ahead and booked the RC390 as am not interested in riding in city streets anymore. I have my impulse and a car for that.

I am getting the RC purely to be ridden at the track and some occasional touring which will involve a lot of twisties

About these cracked rims, I am guessing its the D390s ridden in Ladakh that have seen the most of it. Just because they have some off-road pedigree does'nt mean their 'ROAD BIKES' will perform the same in off-road conditions too. I myself saw many 390s there during my trip in July this year. I was on my impulse and in some terrains I blasted past them like they were standing still. Now I know all sorts of bikes have come and gone to Ladakh, but how many are ridden like they belong there? most will be cautious I think but some I believe ride them assuming it would do well and thrash it around and eventually get something broken or cracked.

Originally Posted by Sheel;

How many of the recently launched bikes have wheel, fork, gasket, cooling & other multiple issues apart from the KTM? Search for them, I bet you know quite a few

Errr..Have all these happened to the same bike ? Do post some examples if you have.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Sheel

In all good humor, it is evens then. You take things mentioned by you at 2L and get things in return mentioned by me.

In equally good humor, though still absolutely seriously - ALL the Duke 390s come to the owner with my list - all at the price mentioned. From day 1.

While only SOME of the Duke 390s give their respective owners one or more of your list. Over a period of ownership time. And ALL taken care of by the company.

So the bottom line remains. In that price range, there is no other bie that guaranteed gives what the 390 gives. So if a prospective buyer with 200,000 rupees ONLY in his pocket enters the market for a bike which can offer all of that, he WILL buy the 390 because there is nothing else that comes even close. And he will buy it knowing of all that could fail. But till there is something that is at least as good, and fails less, there isn't really any other choice.

Its the mantra Bajaj has always worked on to become what it is today for the Indian biking fraternity.

Performance in a budget.

I am sorry, but since when did KTM become exotic? I am not going into off-road and cruiser bikes but can you point out a sport bike costing more than a Ducati or BMW.

The KTMs are considred as exotics. An exotic is never about price alone. Its about edginess and sex appeal and novelty and an exit from commonality.

Originally Posted by Ricci

The Duke 200/390 being exotics ? Yeah they are expensive bikes by Indian per capita income standards, but exotics ? The RC8 and 1290 Super Duke can be called exotics, they are made in small numbers and packed with all the tech they can muster. But to call the 200/390 exotics, is like saying , hey the Nissan GTR is an exotic - 540bhp , twin turbo V8 , therefore Nissan Sunny is also an exotic. Or Toyota Etios, because the GT86 is an exotic.

See above. I am not referring to the baby "third world" Katooms.

Send me your mobile number again please Ricci. Could not meet up last time. And forgot to save it in the party chaos. Lets get together.

[D'Artagnan]

What's the logic with having hard seats?
I've seen duke 390s with hard seats, I'm pretty sure they've carried the same on to the rc390. The seats are so hard that your hands bounce up if you slap it to remove dust on the seat.

Why are they purposely giving a hard seat? If it's for track racing, could you give me an insight as to how it helps the driver?.

[batterylow]

To help keep you in one place I guess. A soft surface will mean you tend to move around more than a firm surface.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Do we have pics of the rear seat? I believe the ones seen in pics are just a seat cowl and not the actual seats?

If those are the actual seats, god bless the pillion! But then - why would you want to carry a pillion anyways!

[basuroy]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Do we have pics of the rear seat? I believe the ones seen in pics are just a seat cowl and not the actual seats?

If those are the actual seats, god bless the pillion! But then - why would you want to carry a pillion anyways!

They are the actual/stock seat . As per one review , the pillion seat has padding and not completely fiber (the grab rails or perhaps better choice of word will be grabbing hole are present below the seat ).

[nishsingh]

Everytime I read about the price of the RC 390 in other markets, I get a shock as to why am I even considering looking at the competition. The RC 390 costs less than the Ninja 300 in Australia, and here we have to pay double for the Ninja!
"KTM Australia is introducing the RC390 at $8295 with the first deliveries expected in November. While that price is certainly more expensive than the top selling Ninja 300R, and $1000 more than Honda’s more powerful CBR500R, the RC390 certainly brings a new flavour into the market, and one we think will prove very popular." From - http://www.mcnews.com.au/ktm-rc390-test-review/

Anyway, has anyone here looked at the RC 390 in the flesh. Are the displays out there in the KTM showrooms yet?

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Ricci

So rather, doesn't it seem like they're taking the Europeans for a ride,

Let's say that they are. Why should it matter to me? And I really feel we are quite far behind on the biking scene as compared to the firangs. Unlike us, they have a plethora of choices across any class of bike. The motorcycling scene is just warming up this side of the ocean. We are far behind the motorcycle evolutionary process and definitely not qualified to offer the Europeans our pearls of wisdom. They in turn can probably teach us a thing or two instead.

And a manufacturer, ktm or whomever can choose to price their products as they see fit. Where does the question of "taking for a ride" even come into the picture is beyond me

Originally Posted by Ricci

pricing a cheap to make single at par with or higher than twin cylinder bikes?

How do you know a single is cheaper to produce? Care to quote numbers? Let's be clear here, a single being cheaper to produce is an assumption, not a fact unless you can substantiate otherwise. All that nikasil & forged piston stuff probably costs money. I'm no expert on this but look forward to some objective data / numbers around this from you if possible

Originally Posted by Ricci

Now, I'm not entirely sure the KTMs we buy and the KTMs they (the firangs) buy are the same. Back in early 2000s, I came across a CBZ specificiations page - it mentioned 14.5bhp (CV, to be exact, which is PS) while our Indian CBZ made just 12.8PS.

The European specs (power, weight et al) are exactly the same as the Indian bike, as are the zip tied black wires against an orange trellis and the exact same exhaust bend pipe crudely hammered in to fit the frame. You may watch any video review online and confirm the same. Any particular dissimilarities that you observed?

Originally Posted by Ricci

We've seen that before, all the Japanese brands are conservative, perhaps Indonesia/Vietnam/Malaysia see more CBR250Rs sold than India, so they probably get priority.

These are all speculations and yamaha will do whatever it has strategized. We are merely trying to guess what the big blue will do, based on whatever logic we can think of. I never questioned why Indonesia first, never even mentioned Malaysia ..... but Vietnam? No, they are not a bigger market than us. But yamaha makes us wait and launches it there of all the places. Not sure why

Originally Posted by Ricci

SoAbout the cracked rims - how many of the incidents are because of hitting potholes while braking ? This would compress the forks, leaving little impact absorption, which then would be borne by the wheels since the suspension won't give.

For some reason, many desi brothers have come to a conclusion that the super stuff road bikes that are the dukes, are good for off road usage. Many parts of these bikes undergo stress levels they were never designed for in the first place. As they are put through more torture, the structural integrity of those parts, including rims, deteriorates. At some point, even a seemingly small jolt sees the rims give way

This is what I think and do not deem this to be conclusive. In my experience of regular usage as a commuter, I encounter some rough roads, bumps, dips etc everyday. The bike seems to be taking it rather well

However, as stated earlier it is not my prerogative to speak on behalf of the manufacturer. Bajaj should look into this a little more

Do search for the very informative thread "man of steel" has put up around this very issue. Some interesting conversation there on the subject of why ktm wheels crack

Finally, I can't seem to understand from your post what the message / takeaway is. There are a lot of assumptions in your post and if you can substantiate them, it will be quite the eye opener

Thanks!

[ganesh_bbr]

There is a video of walk around and exhaust sound from India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRrwSK-aKKg

[man_of_steel]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

How do you know a single is cheaper to produce? Care to quote numbers?

Although I cant quote any numbers, its pretty simple.

For a twin: Cost of
- Pistons X 2
- Cylinder X 2
- Conrod X 2
- A stronger heavier crank to accomodate 2 big-ends
- Valves X 2
- Exhaust headers X 2

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. R&D charges extra!

One question I have. Does a twin cylinder motorcycle fall under a different tax shelf?