[SunnyBoi]

Originally Posted by ebonho

So this 250 MC is the same as the ones for the 200 as well as the 390, just that the 200 and 250 ones have normal levers, and the 390 ones are the ones that come with adjustable levets, as the ONLY difference?

Asking coz I have decent sized hands and adjustable levers are not a tjing for me. So I'm happy with normal levers, as long as Im not putting a 250 part on my 390, where the basic 390 part (the MC itself) is slightly different.

Yes, as per the spare part catalogs. Fun fact, the MC used on the 2013 D390 and 2012-13 D200 are the same as the pulsars. You can verify it from the part numbers. No wonder I said it was "horrible". Difference between the 200/250 and 390 MC seems to be only the adjustable lever.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Do you use the standard service center DOT spec with this new MC or 5.1?

I always use cheap TVS dot4 fluid and flush it out every year. Spending extra on 5.1 fluid is a waste of money especially if the person bleeding does not fully flush and replace the fluid. Even if they do, there will be zero benefit if you dont track your bike.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Do you use normal organic brake pads with this new MC or sintered ones?

I'm using brembo sintered pads on the 200 and EBC HH pads on the 390. I will always go for the EBC even over the brembo sintered ones as there is a significant jump in feel and braking. That said, I bought my brembo pads from my spare market for 1500 a pair instead of paying 2700 at the showroom so I can't complain much.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Thanks for the tip! A thousand bucks is the sweet spot I would be willing to pay for better front brakes.

My honest suggestion is to get the brembo sintered pads from mysparemarket and the MC from the showroom. Do not buy MC from mysparemarket, I got a used unit with gunk inside, promised as a new one. I ended up paying less in the showroom than him for the new MC and got a newer revision. I noticed your reset button on the speedo is failing, get a new dash cover from him too with the pads.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by SunnyBoi

Difference between the 200/250 and 390 MC seems to be only the adjustable lever.

Thank you!

I always use cheap TVS dot4 fluid and flush it out every year. Spending extra on 5.1 fluid is a waste of money especially if the person bleeding does not fully flush and replace the fluid. Even if they do, there will be zero benefit if you dont track your bike.

Great point. I'll do the same. When i resurrected my 390 last October, the brake fluid waa changed. My initial posts on this thread after I got my bike back will show that I was delighted with the feel of the brakes (the sane hard feel you are talking about). But that feel eventually gave way back to the spongy feel. And the lever coming close in. I still brake with one (covering index) finger. But I want that hard feel back. And for it to stay. I don't know if I should try a proper bleed and new fluid replacement at the KTM service once more (one last time, to rule it out) or to just go in for this MC upgrade directly.

The bike currently needs a chain kit and rear wheel bearings and rubbers, a fork cone assembly, the hesitant starter/start up jerky fueling issue, and replacement if the engine oil (mineral Petronas) to synthetic Motul. In addition, I'd like to get my front brake bite and feel looked at too. As above.

My honest suggestion is to get the brembo sintered pads from mysparemarket and the MC from the showroom. Do not buy MC from mysparemarket, I got a used unit with gunk inside, promised as a new one. I ended up paying less in the showroom than him for the new MC and got a newer revision. I noticed your reset button on the speedo is failing, get a new dash cover from him too with the pads.

The above seeds a bit of a doubt in my brain, cause if you have made two key changes, MC upgrade and brake pad upgrade, how do you know definitively which change of the two is the improved brake feel and performance attributable to predominantly?

I rhink I'm currently on the organic front pads, coz I surely never remember paying 2700 for brake pads. I change my rear pads more often than I change oil filters. Or around as often. I'm ok spending a grand on a MC. But 3 grand oon brake pads is difficult to digest for what I see as high wear consumables. How do you see it? Wgat is the cost difference between the organic and sintered KTM original spares brake pads. And how much of a difference do they make versus JUST the MC upgrade with yearly fresh brake fluid change?

P.S. Great eye on the meter set rubber! I was dreading water in the coming monsoons!!!

Cheers, Doc

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The above seeds a bit of a doubt in my brain, cause if you have made two key changes, MC upgrade and brake pad upgrade, how do you know definitively which change of the two is the improved brake feel and performance attributable to predominantly?

Cheers, Doc

Easier to think of it like this, the MC upgrade or just a replacement to a new unit will fix your excessive lever travel issue and the lever will be more firm. This is because the master cylinder gets weak as it gets older and the seals are not doing a great sealing job. These units used to go weak real quick despite bleeding it every two years.

The sintered pad upgrade will give you lots more bite and increased brake feel compared to the organic compound. The progressiveness will depend on the pad material and how the manufacturer designed it to be.

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by b16h22

Easier to think of it like this, the MC upgrade or just a replacement to a new unit will fix your excessive lever travel issue and the lever will be more firm. This is because the master cylinder gets weak as it gets older and the seals are not doing a great sealing job. These units used to go weak real quick despite bleeding it every two years.

The sintered pad upgrade will give you lots more bite and increased brake feel compared to the organic compound. The progressiveness will depend on the pad material and how the manufacturer designed it to be.

This is exactly what I'm trying to convey the confused folks -- seems the rudimentals are all taken for a toss making it more murkier. Simply put, a bike's braking performance depends a LOT more than standard axial MC swap. If one wants to know when an MC swap truly makes a difference then I'd suggest a RADIAL MC swap and boy, that makes one true-blue helluva difference -- it's something to be felt and just cannot be put to verbiage.

Finally! Congratulations on getting the finer aspects lined up.

Cheers!
VJ

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by b16h22

Easier to think of it like this, the MC upgrade or just a replacement to a new unit will fix your excessive lever travel issue and the lever will be more firm. This is because the master cylinder gets weak as it gets older and the seals are not doing a great sealing job. These units used to go weak real quick despite bleeding it every two years.

The sintered pad upgrade will give you lots more bite and increased brake feel compared to the organic compound. The progressiveness will depend on the pad material and how the manufacturer designed it to be.

Brilliant! MC it is then. I just detest that spongy feel. Not so much the lever coming in but the sponge in the last bit of travel. Kadak maangta, as they say in our local lingo.

Braking like cornering is an art. And is all about feel.

Cheers, Doc

[SunnyBoi]

Originally Posted by ebonho

The above seeds a bit of a doubt in my brain, cause if you have made two key changes, MC upgrade and brake pad upgrade, how do you know definitively which change of the two is the improved brake feel and performance attributable to predominantly?

I rhink I'm currently on the organic front pads, coz I surely never remember paying 2700 for brake pads. I change my rear pads more often than I change oil filters. Or around as often. I'm ok spending a grand on a MC. But 3 grand oon brake pads is difficult to digest for what I see as high wear consumables. How do you see it? Wgat is the cost difference between the organic and sintered KTM original spares brake pads. And how much of a difference do they make versus JUST the MC upgrade with yearly fresh brake fluid change?

Cheers, Doc

Think of it this way.

Your existing MC is similar to a piped 2 stroke with a peaky powerband. Sure, if your brakes are bled well, squeeze it hard and you'll do stoppies or whatever. However, everywhere else in the range, its going to suck.

Better master cylinder is like a modern 4 stroke with a wide powerband and lot of torque down below. its easier to live with when doing regular speeds aka more braking power at lower braking levels, better feedback and better modulation.

Upgrading from organic pads to sintered pads is like adding a linear super charger. Power is going to increase linearly throughout the range. it does not alleviate symptoms of a peaky powerband but there will be more power down below due to the virtue of a supercharger.

My holy grail is to have more power everywhere, power that I can use down below as well, power when I want it so i can get faster corner exits and spend less time waiting for the band to kick in. You get the drill by now. This is why I go the whole hog in changing both the master cylinder, use sintered pads and frequently flush brake fluid to keep it always fresh.

Since you were happy with the brakes before, you can get the MC rebuilt. A rebuild kit will cost, 180rs? since the 2013 MC is same as the pulsars you can get it at any bajaj showroom. You can try this first if you dont want to spend on a new MC.

[shadowrider]

The speedometer on my first gen has been acting weirdly with the infamous intermittent zero showing up during riding. It's been like this for the past 7-8 months and took it to the svc today. The checked with a new cable, issue persists. Then they checked with a different meter they had along with the new cable and the speed was showing properly.

For now, I've decided to not change the meter. The odometer works fine as of now. I will replace the meter once the odometer stops working, if it does.

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by shadowrider

The speedometer on my first gen has been acting weirdly with the infamous intermittent zero showing up during riding. It's been like this for the past 7-8 months and took it to the svc today. The checked with a new cable, issue persists. Then they checked with a different meter they had along with the new cable and the speed was showing properly.

For now, I've decided to not change the meter. The odometer works fine as of now. I will replace the meter once the odometer stops working, if it does.

Did they check the battery charging voltage. If not, keeping a tab of it should help -- as it's pretty common on the Dukes to show impending batt/coil failure on the odo with intermittent zero warning. It perhaps could be a faulty console or other aspects of the same, but do keep a tab of your battery health.

Cheers!
VJ

[shadowrider]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Did they check the battery charging voltage. If not, keeping a tab of it should help -- as it's pretty common on the Dukes to show impending batt/coil failure on the odo with intermittent zero warning. It perhaps could be a faulty console or other aspects of the same, but do keep a tab of your battery health.

Cheers!
VJ

I think they did. The battery was replaced eight months ago. Since the reading was correct when they test rode with their spare meter, the chances of an impending coil replacement is not there.

[doga]

So noticed this today.



Thank God this didnt come off on the expressway where I usually let rip as my return journey from work is often late nights. I am sure I didnt lose the clip today and I rode with the missing link for some time. Funnily I lubed the chain yesterday but didnt still notice.
Before everyone thinks the obvious the clip had been installed correctly with slit opposite to the direction of motion.
What are views of the experts on this? I can may be source a new clip however a bit shaken and would now have trust issues. I had used 2 DID chains before which I installed myself on my erstwhile zx and cbr but they were all flaired master link type. Never had a problem. I am thinking of flairing the exposed pin but worried it may crack as it probably wasnt designed for flairing. Also thinking of it the pin probably would be slightly longer to take the clip compared to a pin meant for flairing? If this is the case I am pretty sure it wont flare properly without either losing strength or having some give.
If flairing is not an option and I donot want a clip again do I then look for a 'flairable' master link?
Please note, this is an RK z ring chain I sourced from LRL motors

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by doga

If flairing is not an option and I donot want a clip again do I then look for a 'flairable' master link?

Yes. Resoundingly. After losing one clip, however it fell off, on a bike that does 10,000 rpm and 175 kmph, I would not trust another replacement clip.

If RK Takasagos are quick links clip type instead of one piece, then that's one chain I am staying away from regardless of the reviews, especially from riders I rate and trust.

Cheers, Doc

[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by ebonho

If RK Takasagos are quick links clip type instead of one piece, then that's one chain I am staying away from regardless of the reviews, especially from riders I rate and trust.

Cheers, Doc

Many DIDs and RKTs come with master link for purely for ease of installation. It doesn't mean they're inferior but also it doesn't mean they're fail/fool proof..

Originally Posted by doga

So noticed this today.

Attachment 2591968

Thank God this didnt come off on the expressway where I usually let rip as my return journey from work is often late nights. I am sure I didnt lose the clip today and I rode with the missing link for some time. Funnily I lubed the chain yesterday but didnt still notice.
Before everyone thinks the obvious the clip had been installed correctly with slit opposite to the direction of motion.
What are views of the experts on this? I
If flairing is not an option and I donot want a clip again do I then look for a 'flairable' master link?
Please note, this is an RK z ring chain I sourced from LRL motors

Flaring is basically riveting the chain links provided the right amount of play is maintained. Too tight a flare will weaken the chain and cause tight spots and worse, snap the chain when you least expect. It's equally bonkers!

Now, the sight I beheld was simply death wish! Glad both the ride and rider are safe. Master link types aren't really bad per se, they still do duty on many bikes and are equally stronger and durable as rivet. I sincerely feel, giving the benefit of doubt -- the cusp of it is a combination of bad luck/installation -- if you've installed it yourself consider this a learning curve and move on.

I totally hear you when you mentioned how negatively it affects one's confidence level. I'd sincerely say, it could have ended otherwise, but look on the positive side, she brought you home in one piece and the chain proved its mettle. Get a professional help in installing the clip by properly pressing the X rings and plates in place and then installing the clip.

Relax, install a link or a flare and enjoy your ride!

Good luck! Keep us posted..

Cheers!
VJ

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Many DIDs and RKTs come with master link for purely for ease of installation. It doesn't mean they're inferior but also it doesn't mean they're fail/fool proof..

Cheers!
VJ

That may well be. But a chain is not something you take off and put back on again and again. Not a motorcycle one at least.

On a bicycle with a master link, if it were to fail, you are doing around 90 rpm at the crank. Bicycle chains with a quick link I do use, since I hot wax my chains regularly.

Mind you, when bicycle chains fail, you still have a nasty accident. And most manufacturers go to great pains to specify that the quick links are single use only, and not to be taken on and off regularly. A very rare few like Conex are made ro be reusable. Though even those have a cycle limit. Not KMC. And Shimano has always used replacement pins.

On a bike the same is not the case. It is put on once. And taken off when its done. At the end of its life. So the quick link does not justify the risk. In my opinion. And the risk at thousands of revs a minute and at ton plus speeds is not small and is simply unacceptable. Unnecessarily so. Again, in my opinion.

So no. Not for me.

Cheers, Doc

[doga]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Flaring is basically riveting the chain links provided the right amount of play is maintained. Too tight a flare will weaken the chain and cause tight spots and worse, snap the chain when you least expect. It's equally bonkers!

-- the cusp of it is a combination of bad luck/installation -- if you've installed it yourself consider this a learning curve and move on.

Get a professional help in installing the clip by properly pressing the X rings and plates in place and then installing the clip.

Cheers!
VJ

Vijay, I am no grease monkey, however I am always pretty meticulous when I do something. I did take my time with the clip type master. With a rivet type link, you do it incrementally each time taking measurements, so you don't cross the recommended threshold. Before doing it, you can always measure the width of the master and compare with another regular link to make sure you have not over or under-pressed the link.
I now realize there is no way the existing pins can be flared like I was thinking in my previous post as that'd require hollow pins which the clip type master doesn't have!
Although I agree the clip type link is ubiquitous however it must be telling that most chain sprocket kits DID or even RK ships for litrebikes are all rivet types. They themselves don't recommend the clip types for high tension applications. If you search on youtube you'd find plenty of chain losing clip videos but may not as many rivet failed ones! When I put the order for the RK kit I was expecting rivet type master link however when I received the clip type I didn't think much as it was only a 390 single. In hindsight I should have returned however a big problem is that all these online shops don't post many details, just the brand and some generic marketing spiel, so choosing a certain master link chain is not easy. Other option is pick up a phone and talk which I usually detest, so decided to try the clip type.
I do agree though that the installation has to be spot on and a professional is recommended probably the reason the KTM chain sprocket comes as a joined chain, and you have to remove the swingarm pivot bolt for installation. I used to think how silly this is, but now probably it makes sense as you can never trust an underpaid mechanic with being through with this process. Also, the cost of a good the chain tool is not cheap, and these guys would run through these pretty heavy.
Which takes to me the last point I quoted. Which professional should I go to? I can virtually guarantee there'd very few mechs who have installed a rivet master link in and around my area. In fact a quick check on amazon just shows some international listings which gives you a sense of how low the demand is for a master link. Bikeandbiker has some listed, but they are out of stock for 520 pitch. I have sent LRL a message over whatsapp hopefully they'd have some stock, though not listed anywhere on their site.
If I don't have a solution in next couple days, I'd get regular stock Rolon 'cheese' chain installed at the svc and then patiently ride though the monsoon after which the chain would be up for replacement. Hopefully I'd be able to source a rivet type link by then!

[doga]

Originally Posted by ebonho

A very rare few like Conex are made ro be reusable. Though even those have a cycle limit. Not KMC. And Shimano has always used replacement pins.

On a bike the same is not the case. It is put on once. And taken off when its done. At the end of its life. So the quick link does not justify the risk. In my opinion. And the risk at thousands of revs a minute and at ton plus speeds is not small and is simply unacceptable. Unnecessarily so. Again, in my opinion.

So no. Not for me.

Cheers, Doc

Docs extensive cycling experience comes to the fore! I do see the clip type link popular with dirtbikes, probably because they like to take the chain apart and clean it quickly. Basically bicycles with lot more power