[s_pphilip]

Originally Posted by kn09

For your city i would suggest you to opt for Yoko ES100 or S drive,for size 195/60R14 the traction rating is AA which means you have lot of traction, grip and high speed stability.

Well happy ending here, thanks for suggesting, today picked a set of 4 - ES100's, 195/60R16, could feel substantial difference, as if the car had an under body magnet, the tires are like leaches, of course I am resisting going fast to enable the bedding process but momentarily touched 120 kmph which I did after a really long time.

ASPEC A348, 215/60R16 wasn't available at the dealers. Yes I know after all those discussions on 225/60R16 decided it better to pick the OEM size due to the current suspension issues and also as I can pick Yoko's.

I moved the earlier City Mich's to the i10 Asta, went straight to Hyundai showroom, picked the new diamond cut Grand 14 inch alloy, must say the car now looks as if it went through a 6 pack work out, looks taunt and fit. Will post pictures.

I was unhappy however when the tire guys mentioned that one of the Mich's has a bulge on the side wall, this set of 4 has done less than 7-8 k kms, I touched and the side wall thickness feels like a tire-tube cross section, they advised me against high speed driving, conveyed that to dad and he said he never goes above 80 kmph.
I will change the tyre in a months time or so, dad was kind of pushing to pick it right away, I wanted to try for warranty, since dad paid for all these tires, felt bad as I am putting him in a compromise, maybe I'll pick a couple of 175 size Yoko's or Apollo's, some how I continue my good run with Yoko's, or I may be plain lucky with them, started fancying Acelere's too of late as VFM.

I believe I got a decent deal, paid 20k for 4 ES 100's, not sure what it is priced elsewhere but I believe the difference will not be much.

[s_pphilip]

Okay let me ask this, since the i10 Kappa has 3 Michelin Energy XM2's now which are good and the 4th has a side wall bulge and I don't think I'll get those purchase bills in time, I 'd need a Tyre swap to avoid risk, so do I change to another Energy XM2 or can I pick a Yoko or Apollo, in my limited understanding, I believe that the tires on both sides of the same axle should be of the same size, brand, model, tread etc.
The current set of Mich's are made in Thailand and I am disappointed with the bulge.

I believe Energy XM2 is smooth and comfortable and should have good life, but I think it has weak sidewall and these don't grip as good as Potenza G3's, I just picked ES100 so don't want to comment on them so early though initial impressions are positive.
Potenza G3's has better grip than Energy XM2 unlike some user comment in this forum.

The Fabia has A-drives and 2 of the tires have got badly worn to the seams on one side yet the tires seem to pull on some how, I don't want to say this again, but I like Yoko's. I want to try C-drives. This change can wait so have time.
Are ES-100's grippier than C-drives.
ES-100's I changed to are Made in Japan, made me happier.

The i10 and the City deserve upgrades, they feel so much more planted, its ridiculous we are constantly warned about suspension damage when the upgrade makes sense. The i10 moved around like a hover craft earlier, now bites into the ground.

[kn09]

Originally Posted by s_pphilip

ASPEC A348, 215/60R16 wasn't available at the dealers. Yes I know after all those discussions on 225/60R16 decided it better to pick the OEM size due to the current suspension issues and also as I can pick Yoko's.

I moved the earlier City Mich's to the i10 Asta, went straight to Hyundai showroom, picked the new diamond cut Grand 14 inch alloy, must say the car now looks as if it went through a 6 pack work out, looks taunt and fit. Will post pictures.

The Fabia has A-drives and 2 of the tires have got badly worn to the seams on one side yet the tires seem to pull on some how, I don't want to say this again, but I like Yoko's. I want to try C-drives. This change can wait so have time.
Are ES-100's grippier than C-drives.
ES-100's I changed to are Made in Japan, made me happier.

The i10 and the City deserve upgrades, they feel so much more planted, its ridiculous we are constantly warned about suspension damage when the upgrade makes sense. The i10 moved around like a hover craft earlier, now bites into the ground.

Hi

Which tyres did you purchase for your sonata?

I suggest you get a single xm2 for your i10 will not make any difference unless the other three tyres are worn out.And do not worry about the suspension damage.

For your fabia as you have time for tyre change wait and see how the es100 perform,es100 have more grip than c drive and if you are looking for a change then try S drive.

Please post pics of your i10 with the new wheels

[s_pphilip]

Originally Posted by kn09

Hi

Which tyres did you purchase for your sonata?

I suggest you get a single xm2 for your i10 will not make any difference unless the other three tyres are worn out.And do not worry about the suspension damage.

For your fabia as you have time for tyre change wait and see how the es100 perform,es100 have more grip than c drive and if you are looking for a change then try S drive.

Please post pics of your i10 with the new wheels

Haven't yet, I will be changing them this weekend, placed an order for Aspec summer tyres - 215/60R16, the Yoko dealer didn't have it in ready stock, said it will take 3-4 days. These is the only option in Yoko's.

Yes I am inclined towards same Mich's as I don't want different treads on the 'i' rear axle, though I didn't understand whether you meant its okay to have separate tires by this: "will not make any difference unless the other three tyres are worn out".

I checked 'snapdeal' and XM2 is priced pretty competitively, I think the only risk is whether it is a seconds sale or original, can't really tell this since we can't check the tires in person before the purchase and once ordered I don't think they may entertain a replacement if I tell them to take it back because I don't see the imported "made in xxx" label, so I have accepted this fact and intend to go ahead with the online purchase.

My friend picked a Yoko C-drive online and there is no mention about the country of origin on the tyre, though some delhi dealer who couriered them has stamped a warranty card covering 5 years of use.
An open market dealer said that's because 1st and 2nd quality duplicates are sold online, however I cross checked with the Yoko's on the Fabia purchased locally and 2 of them don't mention the country likewise.
Pretty confused, but decided to try my luck online anyways, money mercy.

On a separate note I asked some Tyre guys and they say it is difficult to get a warranty replacement on tires as they easily prove the bulge is due to bad roads, so warranty concept is technically useless and depends on dealer goodwill.

About ES100's and G3's, are they in the same league. I would bend towards a tire with some comfort orientation for the Fabia as the cars dynamics is in place and don't need out and out on the edge types.
Year on year my average speeds have been constantly reducing like insurance depreciation, maybe age catching up, but I occasionally relive and have a blast.

Will post pics on the 'i' soon. The diamond cut alloys really make the car look blackberry sharp, the most impact-full 20+k spent on the car.
Not promoting speeding but just portraying car characteristics, touched 140 kmph momentarily and the 'i' felt nervous, nothing dangerous, but on the edge types, doesn't matter as it will rarely see north of 80kmph.
I think the safety envelope went up by 20-30 kmph with the tire upgrade, 110-120 kmph felt comfortable, of course its no Fabia but the engine is nice for a small car.
Thanks again.

[kn09]

Originally Posted by s_pphilip

"will not make any difference unless the other three tyres are worn out".

I checked 'snapdeal' and XM2 is priced pretty competitively, I think the only risk is whether it is a seconds sale or original, can't really tell this since we can't check the tires in person before the purchase and once ordered I don't think they may entertain a replacement if I tell them to take it back because I don't see the imported "made in xxx" label, so I have accepted this fact and intend to go ahead with the online purchase.


Thanks again.

I was saying that the car will perform same with a new single xm2 and older tyres unless the other three tyres are worn out.

I am happy that the output is positive

[s_pphilip]

Originally Posted by kn09

I am happy that the output is positive

Got the Yoko ASPEC on the Sonata this Monday, what a revelation its been, feels the cars got another layer of foam below, of course not any magic carpet ride yet, but vast difference. These too carry the 'made in Japan' tags, so origins do relate to comfort.
Time to check the suspension, but I again enjoy being in the Sonata, this tells the undersized 'made in India' G3's were real bad.
I got 2 Jabra Bluetooth's free thrown in, looks like the dealer was happy I picked 8 good Yoko's in a week.

Dad's taken the 'i10' to Mangalore, missed to snap the alloys, the car should be back in a month, will click then.

[s_pphilip]

Originally Posted by s_pphilip

today picked a set of 4 - ES100's, 195/60R16,

A month down and there seems to be a lot of noises from within the car, looks like the ES100 transmits every vibration into the cabin and things seems to be loosening up a bit, for the grip it offers, I knew there will be some trade off, got a puncture too within 2 weeks, but yes the grip is awesome and the tires no longer screech, so overall I am fine, hope they pave the roads smooth after the monsoons.

And to correct the tire up size for the City is 195/60R14. Pardon the earlier typo.

[rosh_aveo1.4]

Guys. A help here. Plan to change my Nissan Sunny tyres from the horrible JK Vectra to something more comfy since that is all I look for, not handling as much because...it's a Sunny.
Anyway, the stock size is 185/65R15 but the Yoko A drives (which I earlier used in my Optra and pretty happy with) only have them as 195/60R15 (costs Rs.4,500). Will that loss of 5 mm profile actually make the ride more discomfortable, although the tires themselves I am sure will be more comfy than the JK.
The other option is the pricier Michelin XM2 which is available in the 185/65R15 (costs Rs.5.300). I'm sure this would be a no brainer choice.
And another option which I never thought of until the dealer informed me, is the Continental ComfortContact CC5 with the same size 185/65R15 (Rs.4,750).
Any opinion on these? Sunny owners or otherwise? I really thought to go for the VFM Yoko but I'm just not sure if going down on the profile a bit is wise or not.

[bharatsomany]

Hello!

I have gone thru a lot of discussions describing the 3% / 4% diametric deviation limit when sizing tyres, but own experience has told me something else.

For me, running 215/75R15 (+8.65%) tyres on an Innova vs. the stock 205/65R15 size has not only increased the ground clearance but to a small extent sorted out the problem of always running high revs while consistently feeling that there is more than enough torque available at lower revs.

Ditto for a Skoda Superb (Automatic) running 215/55R17 (+5.76%) tyres vs. the stock 205/55R16 size with the Speedo reading now exactly matching a GPS speed measurement.

Again for a Skoda Laura (Automatic) running 215/60R16 (+5.14%) tyres vs. the stock 205/55R16 size with which I drove extensively in Ladakh with no problems whatsoever.

I have also gotten a friends Ford Figo shod with 195/70R14 (+7.80%) tyres vs. the stock 175/65R14 size, again with many a thank you having saved the cars underside from repeated damage.

This got me wanting to share my observations and to know more on the subject from fellow enthusiasts.

To start off, here are the Pros and Cons of oversized tyres as I understand them:

PROs:
+Increased Ground Clearance.
+Increased Tyre Contact Patch.
+Lower Tyre Pressure (Larger Tyres Typically have higher load ratings).
+Better Speedo Accuracy (Nearly all cars over-report speed with stock sizes).
+Lower engine revs for the same speed.
+Added sidewall height and therefore better ride quality (if not upsizing wheels).
+Possibility to install larger wheels without too much compromise on ride quality and the risk of wheel damage due to ultra-low profile tyres.
+Accurate & Lesser Odometer Count.
+Full Wheel-Well (Better Aesthetics).

CONs:
-Higher Center of Gravity.
-More load on brakes probably resulting in faster wear.
-Lack of availability of high performance tyres in tall sidewalls (if not upsizing wheels).
-Possibility of Speedo under-reporting the actual speed.
-Probable Lower Fuel Economy.
-Higher possibility of rubbing fender liner / lip in the case of bad alignment or suspension damage.

Further Opinions Requested...

[rpunwani]

Dear bharatsomany,

I agree with you on most counts. My experience & knowledge of upsizing tyres is as follows:-

PROs:
+Lower Tyre Pressure (Larger Tyres Typically have higher load ratings). Tyre pressure will have to be maintained the same, though Load Rating may be higher. Please note that a low tyre pressure will lead to increased flexing of sidewalls and therefore heat build-up in the tyre will be more.
+Better Speedo Accuracy (Nearly all cars over-report speed with stock sizes). Agree, I find a 5% difference between the speedo in my car and the GPS. At 100 km/h on the speedo, the GPS reads 95 km/h
+Full Wheel-Well (Better Aesthetics). Correct, for most cars. The manufacturers in India generally tend to go one or two steps lower on the tyres to save costs

CONs:
-Lack of availability of high performance tyres in tall sidewalls (if not upsizing wheels).
-Possibility of Speedo under-reporting the actual speed. Depends on the error you get and the %age increase in circumference while upsizing
-Probable Lower Fuel Economy. I feel that the fuel economy would increase
-Higher possibility of rubbing fender liner / lip in the case of bad alignment or suspension damage. While upsizing, it is also important to ensure that when the wheels are turned max. either to the left or right the tyre should not touch any part of the car. Also there is a rule regarding how much a tyre can protrude from the wheel arch.

Would appreciate expert views as always expressed by fellow BHPians

[ramzsys]

Last time when i went to Ford service, i saw a 2012 ford fiesta classic's both front shocks being replaced owing to noise from the suspension. The owner lamented that Ford has refused warranty because he was using Qualis tyres(195/70 R14) instead of stock 175/65 R14.

[dhanushs]

bharatsomany, cons will also include:

• Higher un-sprung weight, which has surprisingly big and bad effects on higher speeds, when compared to lower speeds.
• More load on tie-rod end due to more wight and contact patch/friction. If ends fail, can prove to be fatal.

These cons, compromise safety for a daily use passenger car. Hence, I would not advice upsizing beyond a limit.

[Santoshbhat]

Upsizing may help reducing revs while cruising on the highway in cars with short gearing, but what about those that have tall gearing? You will end up driving in a lower gear to compensate the lack of torque.

Also I would not advise upsizing on cars equipped with ABS, ESP and other complicated electronics. The increased wheel dia will mess up the readings and I would not want to take risk with these critical safety related equipment.

Higher GC is the only real advantage I see with oversized wheels i.e. wheels with a larger diameter. Increased contact patch, better cushioning from taller profile and fuller wheel well can be achieved even by maintaining the same outer wheel dia. There are far too many downsides in oversized tyres just to increase the ground clearance IMO.

[bharatsomany]

Originally Posted by rpunwani

Tyre pressure will have to be maintained the same, though Load Rating may be higher. Please note that a low tyre pressure will lead to increased flexing of sidewalls and therefore heat build-up in the tyre will be more.

rpunwani,
My logic is that a tyre designed for more load will end up behaving the same as an overinflated tyre because it has a larger contact patch and can carry more at the same pressure.
If we take a linear view of load carrying capacity vs. inflation pressure and compare 2 tyres, say a 205/55R16 91Y setup and a 235/45ZR18 94Y setup, the tyres have a load rating of 615Kg and 670Kg respectively (both at 51PSI).
Considering a Skoda Laura as the test candidate, the stock 615Kg tyre comes with a manufacturer recommended pressure of 2.2bar or ~31.91PSI.

Now, 615*31.91/51 = ~385Kg per tyre or ~1539Kg total for 4 tyres.

Given the car weighs 1465Kg including 90% fuel, a 68Kg driver & 7Kg of luggage (the standard Euro spec for Curb Weight) the suggest pressure makes a lot of sense for an average usage condition with 2 persons in the car.
With this logic, keeping the tyre pressure the same on the oversized tyres would yield the following calculation:

670*31.91/51 = ~419Kg per tyre or ~1677Kg for 4 tyres.

That puts the gap at ~138Kg, which is not very far out but still formidable in my opinion since we are comparing 2 tyres with a relatively small difference in load rating. Take a 225/50ZR17 98Y (@50 PSI) and the calculation is:

750*31.91.50 = ~479Kg per tyre or ~1914Kg for 4 tyres.

Gap = ~375Kg which is just too far out.

What say?

I feel that the fuel economy would increase

I agree that rolling resistance is not purely a function of size but I do feel that an increased contact patch and likely higher weight of the oversized tyre will most certainly make the case for lower fuel efficiency, unless you're considering always running lower revs and no change in driving style can offset the losses. Honestly, I cannot come to terms with this.

Am I missing the logic here?

Originally Posted by ramzsys

Last time when i went to Ford service, i saw a 2012 ford fiesta classic's both front shocks being replaced owing to noise from the suspension. The owner lamented that Ford has refused warranty because he was using Qualis tyres(195/70 R14) instead of stock 175/65 R14.

ramzsys,
No offence, but I'll have to call 'irrelevant' on this one. Some workshops are so stupid that they will first try to con a customer that warranty is not valid even if you put in a manufacturer recommended size, like a 225/40R18 in place of a 205/55R16. Secondly, I do not agree that oversized tyres will cause shock-absorber/strut damage, especially if the wheel size is the same.
I can tell you for a fact that the ride quality is loads better and can only be attributed to the tyre itself damping more of the road aberrations since suspension and wheels remain the same!

Originally Posted by dhanushs

bharatsomany, cons will also include:

Higher un-sprung weight, which has surprisingly big and bad effects on higher speeds, when compared to lower speeds.

dhanushs,
I am sure you will agree that very minor increase unsprung weight is mostly if not entirely offset by the fact that the same speed can be attained at a lower RPM. What matters is inertia/momentum, not just absolute weight, although I am not trying to imply that heavier is better. I say if Circumference increases at the same percentage as the weight, the final effect is zero. This does not even take into account the reduced intertial force due to lower drivetrain revs at the same speed. Still, I'd be happy to take a physics lesson in the unlikely case that I'm wrong.

More load on tie-rod end due to more wight and contact patch/friction. If ends fail, can prove to be fatal. These cons, compromise safety for a daily use passenger car. Hence, I would not advice upsizing beyond a limit.

Increased wear on tie-rod ends sounds plausible but nowhere close to as dangerous as being fatal. If they were so weak and broke at the drop of a hat then a bad rubble hit, pothole or bump would have the very same effect.
Furthermore, if you consider the fact that larger wheels would typically add to the weight even without an oversize, I don't see a threat to safety.

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Upsizing may help reducing revs while cruising on the highway in cars with short gearing, but what about those that have tall gearing? You will end up driving in a lower gear to compensate the lack of torque.

Santoshbhat,
100% Agreed. This makes no sense for cars with tall gears (& dated transmissions) like the old generation Cruze. But most newer cars (including the new 6 speed Cruze) come with more and more gears with relatively short (& sensible) ratio spacing. As another example, even the VW Vento is coming out with a 7 speed DSG on the 24th (24-09-2014).

Also I would not advise upsizing on cars equipped with ABS, ESP and other complicated electronics. The increased wheel dia will mess up the readings and I would not want to take risk with these critical safety related equipment.

ABS, EBD, ESP, EDL, BAS, etc. do not work on the basis of ride height but in the basis of faster than mathematically possible acceleration. Given that a larger circumference would make the same force take longer to accelerate the wheel, it is impossible for slippage detection to fail.
This is easily tested. Put a Nano Tyre on a Safari and the ABS will fail, guaranteed. Put a Fortuner tyre on the same Safari and I openly challenge anyone to make it fail.

1) Increased contact patch, 2) better cushioning from taller profile and 3) fuller wheel well can be achieved even by maintaining the same outer wheel dia. 4) There are far too many downsides in oversized tyres just to increase the ground clearance IMO.

1) Substantial increase of contact patch can almost never be achieved simply with wider/softer tyres.
2) You cannot have a taller profile without REDUCING the wheel diameter if outer diameter is the same.
3) It is impossible to have a fuller wheel well without an increased diameter, unless we're talking of a lowered suspension which still does not help close the gap on the front and rear sides (just the top).
4) I don't see any real downsides besides accelerated suspension wear yet.


LETS GET DEEPER INTO THIS FREINDS... MORE OPINIONS REQUESTED.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by bharatsomany

Santoshbhat,
100% Agreed. This makes no sense for cars with tall gears (& dated transmissions) like the old generation Cruze. But most newer cars (including the new 6 speed Cruze) come with more and more gears with relatively short (& sensible) ratio spacing. As another example, even the VW Vento is coming out with a 7 speed DSG on the 24th (24-09-2014).

ABS, EBD, ESP, EDL, BAS, etc. do not work on the basis of ride height but in the basis of faster than mathematically possible acceleration. Given that a larger circumference would make the same force take longer to accelerate the wheel, it is impossible for slippage detection to fail.
This is easily tested. Put a Nano Tyre on a Safari and the ABS will fail, guaranteed. Put a Fortuner tyre on the same Safari and I openly challenge anyone to make it fail.



1) Substantial increase of contact patch can almost never be achieved simply with wider/softer tyres.
2) You cannot have a taller profile without REDUCING the wheel diameter if outer diameter is the same.
3) It is impossible to have a fuller wheel well without an increased diameter, unless we're talking of a lowered suspension which still does not help close the gap on the front and rear sides (just the top).
4) I don't see any real downsides besides accelerated suspension wear yet.


LETS GET DEEPER INTO THIS FREINDS... MORE OPINIONS REQUESTED.

Car makers decide the gear ratios for a particular car based on a lot of parameters like power/ weight ratio of the car, the kind of expected usage etc... . Of course a lot of us modify our cars to suit our usage better. So if you want taller gear ratios oversizing will help. But if that is not the case then the gear ratios getting altered may be an undesirable side effect of oversized tyres.

I am no expert on ABS, ESP etc. Since these things are related to the wheel turning or the lack of it, and in that sense related to the tyre and wheel size, I think its better they work with the wheel size that they're meant to work with.

If you can't increase contact patch by going for wider tyres on the same rim with a slightly lower profile thus maintaining overall outer dia, I don't see how you can increase contact patch with tyres of a bigger diameter or taller profile.

I just said you can increase side profile without altering the overall diameter. You just have to go for a smaller rim and taller profile tyres.

If filling the wheel arch is the objective, then lowering the car and going for rims with a negative offset (or spacers) are a better option than going for oversized tyres. Aesthetically atleast this is better than oversized tall profile tyres.

Higher ground clearance is hugely desirable on Indian roads which is why a lot of manufactures are jacking up their cars for India. For example the Fiat Linea, Toyota Corolla, etc... and even the BMW 3. But to be honest I hate to see cars with that awkward stance and wish this trend stops.