Originally Posted by Leoshashi (Post 4139575)

In the link which you provided, its mentioned that this change is applicable for existing models manufactured after 2014. So I don't think running your 2010 WagonR on 0W20 is a good idea.

Quoting from the link

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya (Post 4139568)

Having spent 22 years in the lubricant sector nothing amazes me more than the kind of misconception that is still floating around both among the end users (car owners) and more often than not also the so called experts (the mechanics) all across, be it India or North America.

The kinematic viscosity of a 0W-20 oil is 8.3cSt* @100C where as it is 13cSt@100C for 0W-40. As you can see a 0W-40 formulation is much more (62.5%) viscous (thicker) than a 0W-20.

*cSt (Centistoke) - Unit of viscosity

Please also note that the operating temperature of your engine hovers in the vicinity of 100C.

The notion that thicker oil is better was never true but 30 years ago it was usually harmless. It isn’t harmless anymore and to understand why, one must understand the oil-to-engine relationship. First and foremost oil has to lubricate moving parts and to do that it must circulate between those parts. The moving parts inside engines are separated by tiny gaps continuously filled with oil. So, rather than rubbing against one another, engine parts move on a thin film of oil. If the oil film goes away due to inadequate “shear strength” or improper thickness, engine damage occurs in seconds.

Oil thickness (viscosity) is vital to engine protection. Oil viscosity recommendations are based on a number of factors, but one of the most critical is the clearance between moving parts. Before the age of computer-controlled machining tools there was a lot of space or uneven spaces between parts. But new CNC machines create parts that fit like the parts in a fine watch. This is about ten times more precise than machined parts of 20/30 years ago. As a necessary condition oil must fill the space between moving parts while simultaneously be able to circulate freely. With smaller, more precise spaces between parts, thinner oils do a better job of flowing freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thick oils can fill bigger gaps. That was desirable years ago when the gaps between parts were bigger, but big gaps are history. Thick oil without big gaps disrupts two flow characteristics; oil pressure and oil-flow volume.

Using thicker oil can mislead you into thinking it is better because it increases oil pressure. Higher oil pressure by itself is a good thing, but when it comes at the expense of oil-flow volume. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between parts. This makes the oil pump work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure, but simultaneously decreases oil volume.Too thick oil will result in wonderful oil pressure, yet parts inside the engine could actually be starved for oil due to lowered volume being circulated.

Another down side of using thicker oil is that circulating oil accounts for nearly 50% of engine cooling, so reduced oil-flow reduces cooling causing lubricated parts to operate at higher temperatures. Higher parts temperatures mean more wear.

Too thick or too thin oils can both be bad for engines, but damage is neither immediate nor catastrophic; it just reduces overall engine life. Consider that using improper oil could reduce engine life by a conservative ten thousand kilometers.

And last but not the least this thicker viscosity oil also causes viscous drag and reduces your mileage as the moving parts inside the engine have to overcome the friction caused by the thicker oil.

The notion that a 0W-40 is better than 0W-20 for Indian conditions is also misplaced. Honda/Toyota (and increasingly most of the other OEMs) recommend 0W-20 for all their cars here in North America; the temperature in parts of Southern United States can get as high as 38/39C in summer which is similar to what you can get to in India.

If you’re concerned about the ability of mineral oil to handle the warmer temperatures please use a synthetic formulation within the same viscosity range as specified by the OEM.

Always use the oil within the viscosity range as recommended by the engine manufacturer. Believe it or not, the people who designed and built the engine know more than you and me.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by eternalck (Post 4139702)

"This helps" would be an understatement :). Thanks for your detailed reply!! This pretty much confirms my initial views regarding the whole incident. I only decided 0w40 wouldn't be so bad since it was also mentioned in the user manual (picture attached). What I can make of it is that all the three would be tested and the best fuel economy according to them would be from 5w30 (at the time) which they have changed to 0w20 in further revisions. So even if there is adequate lubrication with the 0w40, I wouldn't be getting the maximum fuel economy possible with the oil which I would very much hate.

I think i am going to give the service advisor a piece of my mind regarding this since I anyway have to visit again. Hoping things don't turn ugly but it's time to put the foot down as Leoshashi rightly said. I wouldn't be having this discussion if things had been done according to manufacturer recommendation. I also think they would only be stocking 0w40 hence its use willy nilly... so I am ready for a couple of trips to the facility.

A better idea would be to test my fuel economy first for a couple weeks and then go to them with proof that what they are doing is wrong.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya (Post 4139710)

I'm glad I could be of some help.

My suggestion is to buy a jug of 5W-30 from an authorized dealer & get your oil changed from a MASS instead of going to this place. If these guys are not stocking the subject grade it unlikely that they will make an exception.

As Leoshashi has pointed out; pushing incorrect information is a malaise that is prevalent largely in this sector across the board. The reason that these people are able to get away with this is because 1) commercial consideration (lowering inventory carrying cost), 2) customers are mostly unaware 3) customers are disinterested and sometimes both.

I'm also surprised by the numerous changes in the oil specs by Maruti so frequently. Out here most of the OEMs (American/Japenses/Korean) follow one or at the most two (rare) viscosity ranges (0W-20/5W-20/5W-30) across their entire portfolio that some times includes more 10 engine types.

I'm sure with more customer awareness coupled with higher level of technician training by the OEMs things will improve steadily in India.

All the best!

Originally Posted by devarshi84 (Post 4121322)

Maruti also suggests 0w-20 and 5w-30 for its cars. But using these oils will do more damage under severe and long city driving conditions or for cars with high mileage. Damage includes, small leaks, engine wear and tear, more sludge, less protection under stress and affects to general performance and may increase in case the oil is burnt leading to less pressure which is already low with a thinner oil. Positives of a thinner oil are usually a good cold start lubrication in winter and more Fuel Economy when it suits the car.

Again, thinner oils are measured to perform better in engines with very tight clearances in new cars. Old cars do not have these. I am personally using a 0w-20 in my Honda Jazz but would not use it in my Lancer which sees a thicker 5w-30 (HTHS of 3.5 or more)

A thick 5w-30/10w-30 (10w-30 can be thinner than 5w-30 in some brands) or a regular 5w-40/10w-40 are good regular options.

These are the usual recommendations in manuals which go up to 50 grade for nations like India.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya (Post 4139568)

Having spent 22 years in the lubricant sector nothing amazes me more than the kind of misconception that is still floating around both among the end users (car owners) and more often than not also the so called experts (the mechanics) all across, be it India or North America.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya (Post 4139568)

The notion that thicker oil is better was never true but 30 years ago it was usually harmless. It isn’t harmless anymore and to understand why, one must understand the oil-to-engine relationship. First and foremost oil has to lubricate moving parts and to do that it must circulate between those parts. The moving parts inside engines are separated by tiny gaps continuously filled with oil. So, rather than rubbing against one another, engine parts move on a thin film of oil. If the oil film goes away due to inadequate “shear strength” or improper thickness, engine damage occurs in seconds.

Originally Posted by Vikram Arya (Post 4139568)

Too thick or too thin oils can both be bad for engines, but damage is neither immediate nor catastrophic; it just reduces overall engine life. Consider that using improper oil could reduce engine life by a conservative ten thousand kilometers.

Originally Posted by eternalck (Post 4139319)

Hi, couldn't find a regular small questions thread so posting here:

Had the 50K KM service done for my trusty '12 wagonr, decided to go in for synthetic oil this time; for the first time ever after the service I noticed it running much more effortlessly climbing out of mall basements on the second gear and I was really happy.

I just reread the owner's manual and 0w20 is the oil which has been recommended, checked the invoice and it mentions 0w40 (which I believe is more viscous than 5w30 which was in it earlier).:Frustrati I should have read up before going in for the service, i know.

The service was carried out at a magic auto authorised center in Delhi.

Now I have read all types of conflicting information on the interwebs... can anyone here please provide a definitive recommendation?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by sgiitk (Post 4139720)

I am wondering which world you are living in. You appear to be confused.

As stated by me and many others an oil which is mmWnn is mm only when COLD and as it warms up it thins down to nn only (yes, all oils thin down with heating). Yes, when warming up oils do thin down. 0W is a misnomer like a 0W bulb! so 0W is just thinner than, say, SAE 5 or whatever. What decides the oil rating is the second no. and not the first. The rule of - lower no can go below the specs, but the higher number must be equal to or higher than the specs.

At one time (mid 70's) oil was fraudulently being labelled as mm - nnW even in Europe. This meant it could be mm which amounted to nn Winter Grade.

It is nn which decides what is the safe oil for a vehicle when hot and running. As corectly surmised by you Lancer engines were not made to the same tight tolerances as a Jazz engine, so needed a thicker oil. if the oil is too thin then metal will rub metal with disastrous consequences. Have you forgotten the good old FIAT / Padmini which specified a straight SAE50 oil!

I did not go down to below SAE30 even in my Santro or Accent. The engines were old technology.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway (Post 4139788)

While I found this piece to be quite informative, however, I felt the paragraph below

to sharply contradict with the para below -

...in terms of the end result to the state of the engine. If you say that an incorrect grade oil reduces the lifespan of the engine by a percentage which is in single digit (most modern engines can comfortably run north of 2 lakh kilometres with nothing more than regular service), then is it that serious an issue, when the kind of driving conditions that obtains in most of our cities, can reduce the lifespan of the overall vehicle even further?

I for one am particular about the grade of oil to be used in my car and have always bought and supplied my own oil to the service centre. Of course I am no expert in this area.

Originally Posted by hothatchaway (Post 4139788)

...in terms of the end result to the state of the engine. If you say that an incorrect grade oil reduces the lifespan of the engine by a percentage which is in single digit (most modern engines can comfortably run north of 2 lakh kilometres with nothing more than regular service), then is it that serious an issue, when the kind of driving conditions that obtains in most of our cities, can reduce the lifespan of the overall vehicle even further?

Originally Posted by Jeroen (Post 4140629)

But seriously, use the correct oil, check your air filter regularly and think about what oil filter is being used. You’ll be fine.

Originally Posted by anycatd (Post 4145302)

Do the MASS allow usage of engine oils outside their dealership? I want to replace the oil on our third service with Liqui Moly one. Will it void my warranty? I am not convinced with the Castrol oils they use. Also heard from a FIAT trained technician that the Castrol oils in India are not of the same quality as in the west. He runs a garage for his passion of FIAT cars. Since our Brezza is also FIAT driven I've taken his advice and will use a European manufactured oil.

Originally Posted by Leoshashi (Post 4145314)

The dealer workshops and MSM's will rarely allow outside oil. Though you can try asking your SA once. The non dealer MASS usually allow outside oil.